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Old Sep 23 2008, 12:54 AM   #1
D. M. Domini
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Default Do weyrs have doors?

So, do weyrs in northern climes have doors shutting the cold winter air out of the dragon's part of the weyr, or do dragons just suffer though the winter cold?

If they do have doors, are they like, rolling metal things or what? They must be large, bigger than a garage door. Or would the doors be wood, on the assumption that the Weyr will always be able to protect itself from threadfall?
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Old Sep 23 2008, 01:16 AM   #2
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

I think they used hide to keep the cold out or heavy cloth, as far a I can recall! Something that made on a very large loom, Drats, my minds blanking out the word on want starts with a T and Lessa used it to go back between over 400 Turns, a Masterweaver work?

For its more handy, and useful than say metal or wood!

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Old Sep 23 2008, 02:41 AM   #3
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

I also believe it would make more sense to use hides and blankets and tapestry to cover the doors and other parts of the weyr. I would not cover the main entrance, as Dragons and riders constantly flying in and out, and if Threadfall DID occure, I would really HATE to try dealing with a door.

Dont have to worry about damage to the weyr, as the stone is protecting the rest of the structure, and you want to be able to duck inside, in case anyone is suddenly caught unaware. And as for the cold, I would assume that most of the Pern populace would be deep inside the weyr..so the natural rocks and heat from the inside would keep things nice and toasty.
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Old Sep 23 2008, 04:26 AM   #4
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

I concur with the heavy cloth and hides but maybe for the first story storage spaces there might be doors.
We have to remember that wood (for doors) has been a precious and expensive commodity.
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Old Sep 23 2008, 05:50 AM   #5
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

I'd think oilcloth would be better than hides for a weather-proof outer weyr screen.
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Old Sep 23 2008, 10:44 AM   #6
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

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Originally Posted by Rissa View Post
I also believe it would make more sense to use hides and blankets and tapestry to cover the doors and other parts of the weyr. I would not cover the main entrance, as Dragons and riders constantly flying in and out, and if Threadfall DID occure, I would really HATE to try dealing with a door.
I TWD, it mentioned during the duel between F'lar and the Oldtimer that they tore down the "hangings", coming out of the weyr.

So it sounds like they have some sort of curtain for privacy, but not an actual door.

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Old Sep 23 2008, 12:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

I think Ginnystar is thinking of a Tapestry depicting Ruatha, as it was 400 years before, so that Lessa had a reference point to go between. But in Lessa's time, it was taken down then re-put back up.

Doors seem to be found mainly in holds and halls, although they were found in the lower caverns in the Weyrs as well.
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Old Sep 23 2008, 12:33 PM   #8
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

So essentially dragons just put up with the bitter winter air? I doubt a hide would do much more than cut the wind in winter in the colder Weyrs.
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Old Sep 23 2008, 01:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

I don't remember any references to cave closures against the weather.

There ARE references to 'hangings' across internal openings. One is mentioned dividing Lessa's sleeping room from Ramoth's sleeping area.

I think the one mentioned in the fight scene is (again) an internal privacy screen between the Council Chamber and Lessa's Weyr.

Incidentally: have you tried googling 'weyr'?
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Old Sep 23 2008, 02:13 PM   #10
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

it's possible they've a combination of all three options depending on the welath and locaition of the weyr and access of materials.

A stonedoor to guard the entrance. These can be made to move on a system that'll allow it to swivel so it can be moved easily with minimal pressure. (Sorry, I can't think of the name for the type of system at the moment.) Some ancheint Aztec and Myan temples have these systems. It's not a cantalevered, that flips upwards. I'm looking for the defintion of a stone door that would swivel on it's axis out of the room.

Storage areas could posibly have a combination of Tapastry, hide oil cloth heavy fabric to cover the openings for cold storage, or a metel door covered over with fabric to cathc breezes.

Defiantly in the farthest interior they may have the cloth.

It's only an opinion. It mainly depends on the weyrs' location, wealth and access to materials. Would holds or craft halls exchange services if they hadn't suffiecent foodstuffs. Like a carpentry craft hold would make doors and furniture for them. Or metel smithys making metel doors, or masons and stone crafters making the stone doors. They'd more than likely do the heavy work on site.
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Old Sep 23 2008, 04:45 PM   #11
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

I am not sure that dragons feel the cold. Jaxom was amazed that the cold of the moutain top lake did not bother Ruth, but, Ruth did not feel the 3 times colder between.
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Old Sep 23 2008, 05:54 PM   #12
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

Quote:
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I think Ginnystar is thinking of a Tapestry depicting Ruatha, as it was 400 years before, so that Lessa had a reference point to go between. But in Lessa's time, it was taken down then re-put back up.0

Doors seem to be found mainly in holds and halls, although they were found in the lower caverns in the Weyrs as well.
That the word I was looking tapestry for a wall hanging or a as door covering, thanks jube, this med is sometime making my slower than I like.

The northern Weyrs also had a heating system to take some of the chill too, and as Jube said wooden doors when found in the lower part of the Wyer's lower cavern, In Fort Weyer the is a wooden door for the medical storeroom in Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern.

As for stones they would be rolled into place in Dragonflight, maybe on a bar with rollers oiled well so they could be move into place fast?
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Old Sep 23 2008, 06:29 PM   #13
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

The outer openings have no doors or coverings whatsoever. It seems that there is a gaping hole into the main cavern of the dragon weyr, but the inner weyr for the rider's room certainly would have at least a heavy cloth or skin curtain, and most likely a hearth inside (I have to wonder about how they bore holes for ventilation of smoke for every single weyr?), and a regular door is not unlikely either.
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Old Sep 23 2008, 07:25 PM   #14
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

Quote:
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That the word I was looking tapestry for a wall hanging or a as door covering, thanks jube, this med is sometime making my slower than I like.

The northern Weyrs also had a heating system to take some of the chill too, and as Jube said wooden doors when found in the lower part of the Wyer's lower cavern, In Fort Weyer the is a wooden door for the medical storeroom in Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern.

As for stones they would be rolled into place in Dragonflight, maybe on a bar with rollers oiled well so they could be move into place fast?

That's what I mean. a hinge system that with oiling it'll move nearly effortlesly.
Others are saying there aren't outter doors. This is for ANY weyr?
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Old Sep 23 2008, 07:47 PM   #15
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

The earlier weyrs had geothermal heating piped in from the magma chambers down below.
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Old Sep 23 2008, 07:49 PM   #16
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

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So essentially dragons just put up with the bitter winter air? I doubt a hide would do much more than cut the wind in winter in the colder Weyrs.
HEheheheh....

I have had the pleasure of camping in Germay, during the winter. Believe me, that little hide, or whatever covering your using does WONDERS to cut out the wind and cold during the winter. I also managed to stay in a castle overnight, during an tour. Believe me..the one large room, they used coverings to keep the heat in..felt MUCH warmer, then when we had to step out to find the restrooms, down the hall...talk about a breeze!!!

A few well placed coverings, acting as buffers, and making pockets of air that came seperate you from outdoors, can be affective.
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Old Sep 23 2008, 08:08 PM   #17
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

Mom's livingroom is wide open & would get very, last winter when Mom's hospital bed got put in there she would freeze at nigh so we put a heavy blanket over the doorway. The livingroom stays much warmer.
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Old Sep 23 2008, 08:46 PM   #18
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

Hmm. geothermal heat is wonderful ona stone floor.:-) No more frozen toes or going "YIPE!!" when treaking down to the bathroom. Ban enough slidding out of the furs to sue the bathroom and feet hitting a COLD floor making the need even more urgant.
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Old Sep 24 2008, 12:46 AM   #19
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

The simple answer is "no, weyrs do not have doors."

No weyr (except Ruth's converted stable at Ruatha) has ever been described or depicted as having a door. Certain storerooms (e.g. medicinal) and maybe records rooms have been described as having doors (ref: Moreta), and some of these have been described as proximal too a weyr (usually a queen's) or of branching off from the same tunnels as those serving a queen's or weyrleader's weyr.

However, the weyr itself has never been depicted as having a door. Even the inner quarters of weyrs are only described as having "hangings" which are presumably of hide, or heavy cloth.

Geothermal taps supply the Weyrs with warm water, and to some degree heat. For those weyrs tied into the geothermal taps, this heat would obviously abate the cold somewhat, but not drastically, especially in the upper reaches of the weyr walls and the farther the weyr is from the central source of the geothermal tap.

The dragons do have hide, and it is (IIRC) stated at some point to possess some insulating properties. However, the dragons do make a regular habit of sunning themselves, and make no mystery of their pleasure swimming and lounging on hot beaches. It seems obvious that the dragons derive some benefit from exposure to the sun and it is probably at least partly to offset the chill of the Weyrs. Also, old pairs regularly migrate south to Igen or Ista when too old to chew firestone, presumably because those warmer climes are more salubrious.

It would be fairly safe to assume that there is a permanent chill in High Reaches, Telgar and Benden Weyrs due to their latitude and altitude, and in Fort Weyr due to its altitude, and in Igen during the night hours and winter due to its desert environment. Ista would probably be cool in the evenings because of its relative altitude, but never cold, even in winter. Waking in the morning in a Weyr (Ista excepted) would probably not be a pleasant experience and could probably be most generously described as "bracing" except for those lucky enough to be closest to the geothermal tap. It would be safe to assume that dragonriders regularly sleep under very heavy furs, year-round. Even when sleeping with their dragons (IIRC) the riders customarily cover themselves with a fur, so we can assume that even lying next to one of these beasts it is still quite chill in that outer chamber of a weyr. The inner chamber would probably not be much larger than the bed itself, and might contain a simple bureau and a mirror on the wall. Close off a small space like that with a heavy hanging and burrow under the covers and you ought to be fairly cozy once your body warms that cold bed.
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Old Sep 24 2008, 02:10 AM   #20
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

Here's a thought for you, remember how back in the days - well up to WW1/WW2 anyway - they used a brick or type of hot water bottle to warm the beds up. Maybe they do the same thing on Pern, perhaps?
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Old Sep 24 2008, 03:38 AM   #21
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

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The outer openings have no doors or coverings whatsoever. It seems that there is a gaping hole into the main cavern of the dragon weyr, but the inner weyr for the rider's room certainly would have at least a heavy cloth or skin curtain, and most likely a hearth inside (I have to wonder about how they bore holes for ventilation of smoke for every single weyr?), and a regular door is not unlikely either.
The outer openings seen in most of the illustrations are the dragons' weyrs. It would be rather silly to have some kind of hanging there, wouldn't it?

And definitely a hearth inside, yes. And remember they have holes for a communication system, so holes for ventilation would have been no problem I suppose.
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Old Sep 27 2008, 11:46 AM   #22
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

I know they have them, I'm just wondering how they bore them through rock so precisely without very much technology. Some weyrs were founded after they lost significant pieces of machinery, and new individual weyrs would surely have been made many times throughout two and a half thousand years.
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Old Sep 28 2008, 03:53 AM   #23
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

*tries to dust off rusty memory*..

Umm..Arent weyrs usually made in extinct volcanic mountains? If thats the case, there would be PLENTY of holes, and crevices and such, from when the lava used to flow. Very little, if any extra drilling needed.

And hey..if the Egyptians built pyramids..im sure they could figure out a way to make tiny holes without too much trouble.
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Old Nov 13 2010, 04:55 PM   #24
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2cent Re: Do weyrs have doors?

you mean between the dragon's weyr and the riders room? no, its some kind of hanging, though why doors cant be used, i have never understood.

for that matter, there should be some kind of doorhanging at the weyr entrance....keep the dragon and rider warm.


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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
So, do weyrs in northern climes have doors shutting the cold winter air out of the dragon's part of the weyr, or do dragons just suffer though the winter cold?

If they do have doors, are they like, rolling metal things or what? They must be large, bigger than a garage door. Or would the doors be wood, on the assumption that the Weyr will always be able to protect itself from threadfall?
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Old Nov 13 2010, 11:09 PM   #25
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

Tapestries are (usually) large decorative pieces of fabric with a design/picture either woven in or embroidered. I don't think they'd be much use for keeping the cold out, being more for decoration, but they might be used as a door-substitute for the rider's section of the weyr, with a herdbeast hide for the outer 'door'.
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Old Nov 14 2010, 06:25 AM   #26
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

So how would they fasten the fabric door covering to the rock walls??
Come to that, how do they fasten the tapestries etc used as decoration
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Old Nov 14 2010, 07:40 PM   #27
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

same way that things are fastened to concrete, block and such today, i would think-drill or screw hooks into the walls, and hang up with grommets on the tapestries. its been done back in our own middle ages, so methods would have been in their computer records.


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So how would they fasten the fabric door covering to the rock walls??
Come to that, how do they fasten the tapestries etc used as decoration
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Old Nov 14 2010, 07:46 PM   #28
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

Tapestries were used a lot in the old castles as pretty insulation. The cold stone walls sucked up the heat, so the tapestries were hung on the castle wall interiors for warmth.

As for the weyrs, I would think that for the dragon's section, there would be a type of hanging or curtain. A door would be too clumsy for entrance and exit, if it were done similar to a curtain, it could be pushed aside easily - even by the dragon.
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Old Nov 14 2010, 09:25 PM   #29
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

As for doors being "easy", ever tried to drive screws or bolts into even cinder block without power tools and cement screws? Especially given some of the weyrs were cut by hand after the laser cutters died, why go to massive trouble if you don't have to?

In any case as long as the area the rider lives in has some shelter/windbreaks (or even is just sufficiently deep in the rock) the dragon should be fine. Horses and cattle can and do live outdoors year-round in very cold climates (without needing blanketing.)
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Old Nov 15 2010, 04:39 AM   #30
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

Also: unless the sides of the opening are plumb vertical, how you you fit hinges?
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Old Nov 15 2010, 06:11 PM   #31
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Gold Re: Do weyrs have doors?

remember, Fort and Benden Weyrs were the first two, so they got to use the rock cutters. they were described as cutting through rock like soft butter, i think. and in Todd's books, there was the same comparison, with the smooth walls.

even if the wall were not perfectly smooth, i should think that it would be possible to hang a door-kids do it all the time on treehouses, with uneven walls! ^_^ you would just have to cement or otherwise fill in the space between the board the hinges are on, and use the same stuff around the edges, to make them fit more smoothly. i've been in caves where this kind of thing was done to make a door hang.

and as for ways to close up the entrance of the dragon's weyr, perhaps heavy leather curtain-type? the point Todd made in his books about the sick dragons needing to be kept warm or cold was a good one, and one that i wonder why his mom never dealt with before. just because they can handle*between* doesnt mean that they wouldnt enjoy a nice warm weyr.....im sure their riders would appreciate the lack of drafts!

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Also: unless the sides of the opening are plumb vertical, how you you fit hinges?
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Old Nov 16 2010, 06:00 AM   #32
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Seriously, I don't think they need them. Just because a weyr has an entrance big enough for a dragon to crawl through doesn't make it the worst-case of a cylindrical cavity of the same cross-section pointing right at the prevailing wind! That - or even anything close to it - would be plain dumb.

Take your entrance, and then angle the weyr itself back behind the outer walls. Don't make it any larger than it needs to be for the dragon to turn around. The fact that dragons are described as lying on couches in their weyrs suggests something like either an alcove carved into the rock, or some physical structure (which you could potentially send a hot pipe under/stick hot bricks beneath). Stick a dragon inside an enclosed space like that, and even without any heating whatsoever, it will warm up. And it'll heat up its surroundings too. Just like an igloo - you don't think those need any heating, do you?

Another factor which ALL of you have overlooked so far is that dragons are bloody LARGE! Heat loss is much less of a factor for such a large creature, given the ratio of mass to surface area - providing they keep those wonderful heat-exchangers they call wings tightly to their bodies, that is. Without wings, I'd worry about them overheating, to be honest...


Ah, the happy days of physics problem classes [assume everything is spherical and made of water], working out the largest possible size for a dinosaur before its own metabolism cooks it from the inside out...

Bottom line - even in a crappily designed weyr, doors are NOT needed.
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Old Nov 16 2010, 12:51 PM   #33
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

Depending on how the weyr is situated, I can see wanting a door/partition on the RIDER's area.

But as far as the big opening a dragon can fit through, that just seems very impractical. Not to mention beside the point in one respect (for any doors on the rider weyrs)--except for a few occupied by high-rankers, they're all accessible by dragons only. The riders wouldn't need heavy doors for security. (I would think that still rooms and store rooms would be the places in Weyrs needing a lockable door--things anyone has foot access to and contains things that people would be inclined to lift.
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Old Nov 17 2010, 03:30 PM   #34
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

good point- even in a society that as idyllic as this is supposed to be, there are going to be people looking for a five finger discount. remember how joel lillencamp had his storehouse locked all the time, and checked everything, to be sure stuff hadnt been taken. i can see people wanting to steal things to sell, drugs to support a habit, valuables from weyrs when they owners are gon flying Thread... so logically, there had to be doors at least in the Lower Caverns, and at the entrance to them.

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Originally Posted by Anareth View Post
Depending on how the weyr is situated, I can see wanting a door/partition on the RIDER's area.

But as far as the big opening a dragon can fit through, that just seems very impractical. Not to mention beside the point in one respect (for any doors on the rider weyrs)--except for a few occupied by high-rankers, they're all accessible by dragons only. The riders wouldn't need heavy doors for security. (I would think that still rooms and store rooms would be the places in Weyrs needing a lockable door--things anyone has foot access to and contains things that people would be inclined to lift.
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Old Nov 17 2010, 04:25 PM   #35
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Well, and as far as the stillroom goes--drugs are drugs.
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Old Nov 17 2010, 04:34 PM   #36
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

Okay, I've just done a quick scan through DF, DQ and Moreta. There are repeated references to door-curtains hanging across the arched doorways between the rider's quarters and the dragon's weyr - as well as clear scenes where action in the weyr is observed from within the living quarters. Not just in queens weyrs, but also in F'lar's weyr at the start of dragonflight, which clearly wasn't a queen-weyr (it didn't have steps down to the bowl). Door-hangings/door-curtains are used consistently in the 9th Pass, and were also present in Moreta's day. Add to this the fact that the doorways are arched passages connecting two caverns, NOT rectangular gaps in walls. They're going to be somewhat irregular.

Another point to note is this - Anne consistently describes passageways connecting a dragon's weyr to its ledge. They don't open straight out onto the open Weyrbowl.

IOW, no doors, and that weyr's going to stay naturally nice and cosy.
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Old Feb 7 2013, 05:34 PM   #37
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

Didn't Fort Weyr appropriate an airlock door, like Red Hanrahan did for Ruatha Hold?
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Old Feb 8 2013, 04:35 AM   #38
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

Dunno about the airlock door, but I seem to recall two of the Todd books vaguely bringing this up. IIRC, when at Igen Weyr, the various characters find small niches either side of the doorways, and eventually conclude that there was some sort of fabric hung across the doorway to keep out the heat, which D'gan's lot took with them (for a touch of familiarity rather than practical use) upon moving to Telgar Weyr.

I guess it could be suggested that curtains weren't that common to weyrs originally, but over time the custom of using them spread from one Weyr to another? There's a scene in one book which goes on about Telgar Weyr having some sort of pottery tradition, which they try to spread with the other Weyrs later on; perhaps the whole practice of Weyrs (vaguely) keeping to themselves led to each Weyr developing random traditions in the early Passes and Intervals, only for these to become more widespread following the Dragon Plague as a result of the Weyrs working together?

On another note, although it's not necessarily canonical, I seem to recall that the Chronicles of Pern game placed curtains across doorways when a room wasn't accessible for whatever reason (mostly curtains blocked off dragon weyrs, but sometimes a character would be taking a rest in their own weyr)...the only actual door was a large one that connected the Lower Caverns (or at least a large network of caverns that connected individual weyrs with the Kitchen Caverns and some store caves) with the Bowl.
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Old Feb 28 2013, 11:50 AM   #39
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

Hi!

Moreta has a curtain to her weyr.

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Moreta fixed Nesso with an admonitory gaze, reinforcing her injunction. Nesso had an officious habit of "taking" Moreta's place whenever the Weyrwoman was absent unless specifically ordered not to. "Away with you now, Nesso. You've enough to do, and I'm longing to be clean." Moreta accompanied her words with & smile as she gave Nesso a gentle shove toward the exit from her sleeping room.

"Sh'gall should go with you. He should," the irrepressible woman muttered as Moreta held aside the vivid door-curtain. Only when Nesso neared the sleeping queen dragon did she cease her imprecations.
We do, however, see curtains between different parts of the weyr:

Quote:
"The rust will do very well, and I'm grateful for the loan of it." She smiled around at the women in the room, trying to locate the donor but no one met her glance. "This will be fine. I won't be long," she added, smiling again as she entered the bathing room and pulled the curtain across. She hoped they would all take the hint and leave.
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Moreta pushed back the curtain that separated the sleeping quarters from the weyr...
DQ online:

Re: Mardra

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Undoubtedly the Fort Weyrwoman was sulking beyond the curtain between weyr and sleeping room
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Old Feb 28 2013, 02:48 PM   #40
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Default Re: Do weyrs have doors?

Your second quote is from the Gather at Ruatha - when she has to change clothes after getting splashed.
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