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Old Jun 12 2009, 03:58 AM   #81
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Default Re: Should have been something else

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The idea that someone who patently would NOT be comfortable with a particular sex act should be forced to engage in it definitely conveys a titter-titter sense of 'that'll show him.'
Hmmm. Yes. Not particularly nice, is it?

Mind you, a lot of people out there wouldn't choose to engage in casual sex, and to them sleeping with a random person of their preferred gender is scarcely any better than sleeping with a random person of their non-preferred gender. So, how is the argument that Brekke should've been willing to sleep with any old bronzerider when Wirenth flew any better or different than the implication that Toric might have benefited in some way from being a greenrider?


As far as the Toric suggestion is concerned, if the point was merely the sex act, then sure, that's mighty off-key. But if it was that being a greenrider would be the one thing that would make him go furthest in terms of putting the needs of another sentient being above his own, then that's a very different call. Reading the thread, I get the feeling that the former intention was closest as far as the original post went, but there's still a germ of a decent point tucked away in the latter interpretation, even if it wasn't intended to be there.
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Old Jun 12 2009, 09:24 AM   #82
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I still can't see how they work against someone who isn't real. Isn't fantasy/Aren't fantasies supposed to be harmless until acted on?

Depends upon your philosophical outlook. There's that "in my thoughts" clause in the liturgy for a reason. The idea is probably that if you say one thing but think another, it's a hypocrisy nonetheless.

Like I said, this is why there are a lot of "recovering" Catholics. Heck, you wouldn't have Protestants without them!

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Old Jun 14 2009, 08:12 PM   #83
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I believe Toric was ok until the "Old Timer" weyrleader boxed him down because he wanted a try at an impression.
Lytol wanted to do what he could to help the last weyr and hated Fax so much that he was game to undo anything the dead Lordholder did.
I still don't understand the Mirrium thing: she's not a queenrider but is considered a weyr woman by most. Someting wrong in that group.
Any major charactor changes and they would not be the stoyries we'd be talking about.
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Old Jun 14 2009, 10:01 PM   #84
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Could someone tell me what book Toric tried to Impress in, and when he was told "no" by the Eighth Pass Weyrleaders? Quotes or something? I can't get to my books at the moment - the only ones I have is the DRoP omnibus, and I don't remember that in them.
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Old Jun 17 2009, 07:17 PM   #85
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It's in DQ, page 155-156 in my paperback (beginning of Chapter IX).

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It had always amused F'nor that people he had scarely met were willing to confide in him, but he'd found that this was often an advantage, despite the hours he'd had to spend listening to maundering tales. One of the younger men, the ground-crew chief, Toric, informed him that he'd staked out a sandy cove near his hold. It was almost inaccessible from the land-side, but he'd seen certain fire-lizard signs. He was determined to Impress one and positive that he could, for he'd been lucky with watch-whers. He'd tried to convince Fort Weyr that he should have a chance at Impressing a dragon, but he hadn't been given the courtesy of seeing T'ron.

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Old Jun 18 2009, 03:02 AM   #86
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Default Re: Should have been something else

That statement of Anne's about watch-whers rather mucks up Todd's take on them.
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Old Jun 18 2009, 04:12 AM   #87
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Default Re: Should have been something else

Question is, does that also imply that Toric stood on the grounds (between time) in Southern for an egg of Prideth's clutch?
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Old Jun 18 2009, 08:21 AM   #88
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Default Re: Should have been something else

*snorts at Toric* Yes, because every hopeful wannabe-candidate that wanders in is granted a "courtesy" visit with the Weyrleader.
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Old Jun 18 2009, 08:40 PM   #89
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Default Re: Should have been something else

Why would he go to Fort and not Benden? At that point in the books, he couldn't have been disgusted with Benden yet. And he would have had to have more of an affinity with them than with Fort, since I doubt that when F'lar started the Southern Project, he would have gone to the other side of the continent for volunteers. Remember - at that time, the general consensus was that Thread was gone forever.

Does anyone know where Toric is originally from?

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Old Jun 19 2009, 03:50 AM   #90
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He should have stood at Ista since he hails from High Palisades, an island that belongs to Ista Hold.

Click for Toric's Bloodline


Ah, I am my own help In the Bloodline it mentions that Toric stood on the Benden Hatching Ground:

Toric was a candidate for Ramoth's first clutch but was not chosen, he went south with F'nor to establish Southern Weyr and stayed there [RoP-UK/3:63]. If Toric was a candidate in 2508, he must have been about 12 Turns of age at the time, although the prologue of The Renegades of Pern seems to indicate he is quite a few years older. Other sources indicate Toric being 18 Turns old at Ramoth’s first Hatching in 2502 — at which he failed to Impress — and since that sounds much more reasonable I have assumed he must have been born in 2483 or 2484.

And here's the source for your question's answer, Shalyn:

In the American Del Rey edition of The Renegades of Pern is written of Toric that he returned to Keroon after establishing his Hold. In the prologue of the same book however a section can be found about Toric and how he left his ancestral High Palisades Hold on Ista. I have taken the mention of Keroon as a typo [RoP-US/63].

Him going all the way to Fort and demanding an nterview with the Weyrleader(s) does fit his character though. And when refused he went all the way across Pern, to (in his eyes?) the second best Weyr; Benden

Oh oh...
Having just said, err typed that, I realise there's something wrong with the chronology. He can't have gone to Fort and then stood to Impress at Benden. At the time of Ramoth's first clutch the Oldtimers hadn't come forward yet!
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Old Jun 19 2009, 10:56 AM   #91
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Saying Nemorth deserved better. It would be interesting in an AR Pern to see Manora impressing Nemorth. I think we all agree that she would have "deserved" Nemorth more, and probably would have made a much better Weyrwoman than Jora. Think how much she could have taught Lessa as a weyrwoman instead of "just" being the head woman.

GH
With all the discussion of Toric, I was curious what people would have thought of Manora impressing a Queen (particularly Nemorth, if she wasn't too old at the time).

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Old Jun 19 2009, 09:08 PM   #92
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With all the discussion of Toric, I was curious what people would have thought of Manora impressing a Queen (particularly Nemorth, if she wasn't too old at the time).

GH
I personally think thaT she would have an awesome Weyrwoman, especially with her ability to organise people. Maybe even (dare I say) a better queenrider than Brekke? Brekke had great organizational skills and would have probably have made a successful Headwoman, but I agree with others on here, and feel that she lacked an ability to form a true partnership with her dragon and to actually put her dragon above herself when it counted. If the infamous mating flight didn't turn out like it did, it would have been interesting to watch Brekke. In fact, it's still interesting to watch Brekke- she just needs to come out from behind F'nor. Just that he looks good in a pair of wherhide trousers means nothing. . .

Manora on the other hand would have rocked gold, in my opinion, but she must been found lacking in some way. Maybe she was too old at the time. During the 8th Interval, there weren't nearly as many queen eggs produced, and there was only one Weyr doing the producing. I'm not sure how Jora got in there- she was pretty, I guess! I've never actually read Masterharper of Pern all the way through- does it give some clue as to that?

If Manora had been a Weyrwoman going into the 9th Pass though, there would probably be none, or almost none, of the events of the books set into motion. Need to find a strong candidate for replace a inept Weyrwoman would't exist, and probably more people would beleive in Thread.
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Old Jun 19 2009, 10:09 PM   #93
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He should have stood at Ista since he hails from High Palisades, an island that belongs to Ista Hold.

Click for Toric's Bloodline


Ah, I am my own help In the Bloodline it mentions that Toric stood on the Benden Hatching Ground:

Toric was a candidate for Ramoth's first clutch but was not chosen, he went south with F'nor to establish Southern Weyr and stayed there [RoP-UK/3:63]. If Toric was a candidate in 2508, he must have been about 12 Turns of age at the time, although the prologue of The Renegades of Pern seems to indicate he is quite a few years older. Other sources indicate Toric being 18 Turns old at Ramoth’s first Hatching in 2502 — at which he failed to Impress — and since that sounds much more reasonable I have assumed he must have been born in 2483 or 2484.

And here's the source for your question's answer, Shalyn:

In the American Del Rey edition of The Renegades of Pern is written of Toric that he returned to Keroon after establishing his Hold. In the prologue of the same book however a section can be found about Toric and how he left his ancestral High Palisades Hold on Ista. I have taken the mention of Keroon as a typo [RoP-US/63].

Him going all the way to Fort and demanding an nterview with the Weyrleader(s) does fit his character though. And when refused he went all the way across Pern, to (in his eyes?) the second best Weyr; Benden

Oh oh...
Having just said, err typed that, I realise there's something wrong with the chronology. He can't have gone to Fort and then stood to Impress at Benden. At the time of Ramoth's first clutch the Oldtimers hadn't come forward yet!
Well - he could have stood at Ramoth's Hatching. Then gone South with F'nor & co., then come back, then decided to go to Fort to ask to stand at one of their Hatchings.

Though why Ista wouldn't have been good enough for him is beyond me! Matter of fact - in that whole little onesie-twosie sentence of him going to Fort to ask to Stand...It may have been his perception that they refused to see him, whereas he could have been told that he should go to his own Weyr, i.e. Ista.
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Old Jun 19 2009, 10:39 PM   #94
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Default Re: Should have been something else

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If Manora had been a Weyrwoman going into the 9th Pass though, there would probably be none, or almost none, of the events of the books set into motion. Need to find a strong candidate for replace a inept Weyrwoman would't exist, and probably more people would beleive in Thread.

Then again, Manora would have also needed another queenrider to help shoulder the burden of organizing people and keeping track of things, and Candidates would have still been needed after that Interval. Nemorth would have still produced Ramoth, I believe, and Ramoth would still need a strong partner, which she likely wouldn't have found in any of the girls chosen for her. And Manora would have given Lessa quite the education in how things in the Weyr worked, especially dragons.



Anyone think Kylara would've been "better off" as a Lady Holder? I don't.
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Old Jun 20 2009, 05:33 AM   #95
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Hah! I explain why he couldn't have gone to Fort before Ramoth's first clutch because there were no dragons at Fort at that time and then, stupid me, I say he should have stood at Ista.

Well... NO dragons at Ista either of course, before oldtimers came forward!

So Benden was actually the only choice for someone who aspired to be a dragonrider.

But Shalyn does have a point with the observation that Toric could have asked to stand at Fort after the oldtimers came forward. But somehow that also doesn't really fit. I'm afraid that little remark is another inconsistency.
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Old Jun 20 2009, 05:45 AM   #96
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Manora on the other hand would have rocked gold, in my opinion, but she must been found lacking in some way. Maybe she was too old at the time. During the 8th Interval, there weren't nearly as many queen eggs produced, and there was only one Weyr doing the producing. I'm not sure how Jora got in there- she was pretty, I guess! I've never actually read Masterharper of Pern all the way through- does it give some clue as to that?
Or she might just not have had a chance. It's been noted that queens rarely choose weyrbred girls, so maybe none of them were actually given the chance to stand as Candidates, and, while from-the-stands Impressions do happen sometimes, they're still pretty rare. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if Manora was busy helping with the feast and all that and so wasn't even there at the time. Also, it's definitely possible she was a little bit too old - MHoP is frustratingly vague on ages and dates, so it's hard to tell.

If I recall correctly, there were only something like four Candidates for that queen egg, and none of them were very promising. Because Searches at that point in time were not actually based on who the dragons thought were promising, they just let the bronze riders pick. The logical outcome is girls like Jora - pretty but unsuitable as riders.

But yeah, I totally agree that Manora would have made a good Weyrwoman, if given the chance. And there must have been some other girls in the Weyr who would have been better options as well. (I have a plotbunny floating around my head for an MHoP-era Benden fic. If I ever get around to writing it there will definitely be some annoyance about that Impression, especially since my POV character would be one of the girls from the Lower Caverns.)
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Old Jun 20 2009, 03:00 PM   #97
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From memory; isn't Manora F'nor's mum?
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Old Jun 20 2009, 04:27 PM   #98
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Hah! I explain why he couldn't have gone to Fort before Ramoth's first clutch because there were no dragons at Fort at that time and then, stupid me, I say he should have stood at Ista.

Well... NO dragons at Ista either of course, before oldtimers came forward!

So Benden was actually the only choice for someone who aspired to be a dragonrider.

But Shalyn does have a point with the observation that Toric could have asked to stand at Fort after the oldtimers came forward. But somehow that also doesn't really fit. I'm afraid that little remark is another inconsistency.
AND, (funny the things you think of while trying to go to sleep),

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It had always amused F'nor that people he had scarely met were willing to confide in him, but he'd found that this was often an advantage, despite the hours he'd had to spend listening to maundering tales. One of the younger men, the ground-crew chief, Toric, informed him that he'd staked out a sandy cove near his hold. It was almost inaccessible from the land-side, but he'd seen certain fire-lizard signs. He was determined to Impress one and positive that he could, for he'd been lucky with watch-whers. He'd tried to convince Fort Weyr that he should have a chance at Impressing a dragon, but he hadn't been given the courtesy of seeing T'ron.
Uh...wouldn't F'nor remember Toric if he'd spent four Turns exiled with him? After all, only a finite number of people went on that expedition.

This comment makes F'nor out to be either too arrogant to remember the 'little people', or too ditzy to remember others.
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Old Jun 20 2009, 04:27 PM   #99
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From memory; isn't Manora F'nor's mum?
Yes.
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Old Jun 20 2009, 04:37 PM   #100
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This comment makes F'nor out to be either too arrogant to remember the 'little people', or too ditzy to remember others.
I'll let Lessa answer for me:

"F'nor, you're as bad as F'lar! You never forget a dragon's name, but his rider's?'
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Old Jun 20 2009, 10:36 PM   #101
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Quote:

This comment makes F'nor out to be either too arrogant to remember the 'little people', or too ditzy to remember others.
The ditzy-ness comes and goes. Poor F'nor! Sometimes Canth has to remember things for him.

Seriously though, I bet dragonriders kind of become accostomed to the whole 'second-class citizen' thing, where people remember your non-human partner's name before yours. This actually happenss to me all the time, where people greet my service dog before me, and it makes me laugh. "Good morning, Macs! " "Happy Birthday, Macs." "Buenos tardes, Max-o" It's not off-putting or anything. People who 'get it' understand our partnership, and know that we come and go as a team. So they are aknowledging both of us, and in a positive way.

One of my favorite benefits of being partnered with a service animal is that it changes my image- it literally changes the way people see me in a positive direction. I don't why the same thing couldn't hAppen for dragonriders, so instead of Brekke being remembered (or not remembered) as the shy holder girl/ queen egg candidate she is, she's remembered because of who her dragon is and the partnership they share. Not only that, but a 'real' dragonrider (and someone that she happens to have a wild crush on)has just noticed her for it. I think that's pretty cool.

Toric,well, he's so self-centered (a 'me me ME type'), that even the fire-lizards didn't take to him, so he's probably pretty forgettable to someone like F'nor. He doesn't have a dragon, plus he complains all the time. Do you like being around negative people?
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Old Jun 21 2009, 11:00 PM   #102
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Toric,well, he's so self-centered (a 'me me ME type'), that even the fire-lizards didn't take to him, so he's probably pretty forgettable to someone like F'nor. He doesn't have a dragon, plus he complains all the time. Do you like being around negative people?
But F'nor remembers his name after an offhand complaint, yet doesn't remember him after being exiled with him for four years!

At the very least, he should have remembered that his face looked familiar.
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Old Jun 22 2009, 05:54 AM   #103
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Seconding Shalyn. There's a difference between forgetting someone's name and not recognizing the person. F'nor talks about Toric like he's never met him before. (Also, Weyrlady, you mention that negative people aren't fun to be around. Yeah, true, but I'd say that unpleasantness makes a strong impression, and would make someone harder to forget.)

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Toric,well, he's so self-centered (a 'me me ME type'), that even the fire-lizards didn't take to him
Even the firelizards didn't take to him? He had a queen and two bronzes.
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Old Jun 22 2009, 09:25 PM   #104
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Seconding Shalyn. There's a difference between forgetting someone's name and not recognizing the person. F'nor talks about Toric like he's never met him before. (Also, Weyrlady, you mention that negative people aren't fun to be around. Yeah, true, but I'd say that unpleasantness makes a strong impression, and would make someone harder to forget.)

So, just out of curiosity, I am supposed to admit that I was wrong? OK, cool. Only allowed one mistake per day you know!

What if I disagree? Personally, I fail to see why F'nor couldn't have remembered or forgotten whomever he wanted. The part of the quote that mentions who and what Toric is and does ("the ground crew chief") introduces him to the reader- who, I do believe, has never encountered the character of Toric before, depending on how an individual reads. (I never really took note of Toric until TWD, but that's just me. . . )F'nor's just some guy in the book, who's perspective we as readers happen to be seeing through at the time, and congratulations to Anne McCaffrey, the author of the series, for doing good writing, and giving her characters a little backstory. Don't y'all get annoyed when it seems like characters just drop into stories out of thin air? Just poof- no introduction, no nothing.

I do, and I'm betting Anne does too. F'nor and his perspective were. . . well. . . used to introduce another character to the audience of the book.

Just my $2
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Old Jun 22 2009, 09:57 PM   #105
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I'm trying to say "you're wrong!" just "this is how I interpreted it", and my interpretation happens to be different than yours, is all.
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Old Jun 22 2009, 10:25 PM   #106
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Default Re: Should have been something else

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Originally Posted by Weyrlady View Post
So, just out of curiosity, I am supposed to admit that I was wrong? OK, cool. Only allowed one mistake per day you know!

What if I disagree? Personally, I fail to see why F'nor couldn't have remembered or forgotten whomever he wanted. The part of the quote that mentions who and what Toric is and does ("the ground crew chief") introduces him to the reader- who, I do believe, has never encountered the character of Toric before, depending on how an individual reads. (I never really took note of Toric until TWD, but that's just me. . . )F'nor's just some guy in the book, who's perspective we as readers happen to be seeing through at the time, and congratulations to Anne McCaffrey, the author of the series, for doing good writing, and giving her characters a little backstory. Don't y'all get annoyed when it seems like characters just drop into stories out of thin air? Just poof- no introduction, no nothing.

I do, and I'm betting Anne does too. F'nor and his perspective were. . . well. . . used to introduce another character to the audience of the book.

Just my $2
No one said you were wrong, they were just making an observation. No need to get testy over it. If I got a nickle every time someone told me I'm wrong, I'd be buying lunch every day.

And yes, Anne was introducing Toric to the reader through F'nor, but in such a way that it makes F'nor look like he's never laid eyes on the man in his life.

There was also no indication in this introduction of Toric as to what type of person he was. So it's very possible that he started out being a nice young man, or pleasant or whatever, and ended up the arrogant jerk that he became due to life experience.
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Old Jun 23 2009, 03:38 AM   #107
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Default Re: Should have been something else

Weyrlady, this is the internet and that shouldn't be new to you? You are not supposed to do, admit or think anything but be polite and maybe be a little more careful than usual how you say things. I know that's not always easy.

Shalyn, I always got the Impression that Toric started out a nice guy, too. And that he only got bitter because he didn't Impress and felt he was slighted by the Weyr and dragonriders He was ambitious always but that isn't necessarily a bad treat. After all, that was needed to get him out of the "Half Circle Sea Hold attitude" of his native Palissades Hold.

The other inconsistency that always bothered me was that it's mentioned somewhere he went back to his native Keroon. By Renegades Anne had clerly forgotten about this and placed Palissades Hold on Ista Island...
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Old Jun 23 2009, 03:53 AM   #108
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Default Re: Should have been something else

Is it possible that that there are two Torics? Give the size of population on Pern and how few letters there are in the alphabet .....
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Old Jun 23 2009, 04:08 AM   #109
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Default Re: Should have been something else

Of course P'ter, but it is certain that in this case we are dealing with the same person and it seems highly unlikely that F'nor's memory would have been fuzzy because of the commonness of the name.
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Old Jun 23 2009, 11:58 AM   #110
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Default Re: Should have been something else

In the case of where he came from--it's pretty obvious Anne doesn't do a lot of advance plotting or keep tons of notes on previous plots, so it's likely she forgot where he came from and stuck it the first place that came to mind. She also has a tendency to add backstory that seems cool after the fact no matter what she's already written about someone previously. (Like the entire book MHoP.)

Regarding Toric, he definitely starts out being written as a fairly nice guy, someone who's definitely on the Benden side of the Benden/Oldtimer argument. IIRC from Ddrums, it's hard to resolve him as written there with the character in SoP.
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Old Jun 23 2009, 02:37 PM   #111
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Default Re: Should have been something else

I agree with your first remark, Anareth, but not with the second. I find it rather life like and anti-stereotype that he didn't start out as a villain. In real life, too, people are sometimes kind and nice at first and turn into your "enemies" later. For all I care that aspect should even have gotten more emphasis or more attention.

But that might be taste in writing, so a personal liking.
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Old Jun 23 2009, 06:42 PM   #112
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Default Re: Should have been something else

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No one said you were wrong, they were just making an observation. No need to get testy over it. If I got a nickle every time someone told me I'm wrong, I'd be buying lunch every day.

And yes, Anne was introducing Toric to the reader through F'nor, but in such a way that it makes F'nor look like he's never laid eyes on the man in his life.

There was also no indication in this introduction of Toric as to what type of person he was. So it's very possible that he started out being a nice young man, or pleasant or whatever, and ended up the arrogant jerk that he became due to life experience.
Did I sound put out? I applologize if I came across that way- I didn't intend it! And if I had a nickle for every time someone disagreed w/ me, I'd certainly be buying lunch every day. And I'd be poor!

I like the idea that Toric started out a fairly nice, likeable guy, and then became more of a jerk over time due to his experiences. As Hans pointed out, that's very life-like.Look at all the people who supposedly "have it all", and also have yucky personalities. And all the people who are passed over for something they feel that they should have had, as Toric most likely was, and how close they often come to becoming bitter, negative individuals. It's a slippery slope!

Maybe Toric wasn't 'given the courtesy' of a visit with the Weyrleader and Candidacy due to the fact that he seems to be the type that allows his experiences (both good and bad) to dictate who he is. Though how someone at Fort Weyr that he met with could pick up on that in what I presume was a short meeting, is beyond me.

I've a wild idea. . . bet someone has done this already. . . it's kinda a "re-write" of Dragonflight. What if F'lar was looking for a Sr. Weyrwoman due to the fact that they already had one (Manora?) What if he found Lessa, and offered her what he could, a position as Jr. Weyrwoman, and Lessa refuses, prefering instead to reclaim her birthright?
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Old Jun 23 2009, 09:08 PM   #113
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Default Re: Should have been something else

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I agree with your first remark, Anareth, but not with the second. I find it rather life like and anti-stereotype that he didn't start out as a villain. In real life, too, people are sometimes kind and nice at first and turn into your "enemies" later. For all I care that aspect should even have gotten more emphasis or more attention.

But that might be taste in writing, so a personal liking.
Concur. Not every villain is born that way. For all we know Josef Stalin was a lovely little child and never kicked a puppy or pulled the wings off a butterfly.
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Old Jun 23 2009, 09:09 PM   #114
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Default Re: Should have been something else

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IIRC from Ddrums, it's hard to resolve him as written there with the character in SoP.
Recall DDrums is written for the juvenile market.
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Old Jun 23 2009, 10:29 PM   #115
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Default Re: Should have been something else

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Shalyn, I always got the Impression that Toric started out a nice guy, too. And that he only got bitter because he didn't Impress and felt he was slighted by the Weyr and dragonriders He was ambitious always but that isn't necessarily a bad treat. After all, that was needed to get him out of the "Half Circle Sea Hold attitude" of his native Palissades Hold.
Exactly! That's how I've always seen it. Nice people can turn ... not so nice, if they feel put upon. Toric probably was somewhat paranoid, and the paranoia got to him, making him feel as if everyone were out to get him. Heh. Self-fulfilling prophecy much?
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Old Jun 23 2009, 11:11 PM   #116
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Default Re: Should have been something else

I can understand some of the changes in Toric. He started out young and idealistic and soured as time and events disillusioned and embittered him. Also consider that the time switch thing he was part of seemed to have bad effects on a lot of the people involved in that project. We're really only told about the Dragonriders and their problems but it isn't hard to imagine that the "commoners" struggled too. Toric could reasonably expect to have some sort of consideration for being willing to go on that expedition and do all the hard work that he did. From his point of view, he was snatched away from land he'd been working hard only to be returned to a place that had to have been overgrown and many things he'd left for only a short time would surely have been ruined. So he started over again only to be abused (in his view) by the Oldtimers. Then the Dragonriders outsmarted him with the map in the ships and yet another Dragonrider "stole" his sister. And then they refused to help him when he felt he deserved their assistance. From his viewpoint, every time he started seriously getting ahead in the world, Dragonriders ran interference. I'm not excusing the things that he did but I can understand his motivations and believe in him as a character.
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Old Jun 24 2009, 10:42 AM   #117
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Default Re: Should have been something else

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I can understand some of the changes in Toric. He started out young and idealistic and soured as time and events disillusioned and embittered him. Also consider that the time switch thing he was part of seemed to have bad effects on a lot of the people involved in that project. We're really only told about the Dragonriders and their problems but it isn't hard to imagine that the "commoners" struggled too. Toric could reasonably expect to have some sort of consideration for being willing to go on that expedition and do all the hard work that he did. From his point of view, he was snatched away from land he'd been working hard only to be returned to a place that had to have been overgrown and many things he'd left for only a short time would surely have been ruined. So he started over again only to be abused (in his view) by the Oldtimers. Then the Dragonriders outsmarted him with the map in the ships and yet another Dragonrider "stole" his sister. And then they refused to help him when he felt he deserved their assistance. From his viewpoint, every time he started seriously getting ahead in the world, Dragonriders ran interference. I'm not excusing the things that he did but I can understand his motivations and believe in him as a character.
Should we split this thread and create a thread just for Toric?

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Old Jun 24 2009, 11:11 AM   #118
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Default Re: Should have been something else

Nope, several persons have passed in this thread already, but if you want to start one, don't hesitate, GH!
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Old Jun 25 2009, 02:05 PM   #119
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Default Re: Should have been something else

*sigh* Try and follow me here...the point is NOT that someone cannot start out as a good person and end up a villain. The point is you cannot do that offscreen as a writer. You can't just be "Okay, here they're everyone's buddy. Now here they're suddenly a jerk. Now here they're Hitler." That is NOT good writing or good character development. Even if the whole point is that the Big Reveal is OMG, this nice guy was the villain all along, you have to give the reader just enough hints to figure out that something's going on. The was the one book good, one book PITA big brother but not evil, one book Evil Mastermind. Just because we kinda maybe need a villain and whoops, that other guy's dead, so this one here will do.
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Old Jun 25 2009, 03:29 PM   #120
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Default Re: Should have been something else

If you're still talking about Toric, there were "hints." I don't think it is necessary to explore every motivation and thought process of every character. That would become boring and waaay too long. I think we saw lots of "little things" that could reasonably cause a selfish and ambitious person to become angry and resentful about life in general and Dragonriders in particular. I don't think Toric was ever "everybody's buddy." Yes, he could act friendly if he thought he stood to gain something from someone, but I think he always had his own interests at heart.
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