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View Poll Results: Should Todd's work be considered canon?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! 27 26.47%
ABSOLUTELY YES!!! 30 29.41%
Only some of it. 14 13.73%
Not without a LOT of work and better explanations. 31 30.39%
Voters: 102. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jun 28 2006, 12:09 PM   #81
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

In some of Anne's books didn't they say that dragons had to learn to eat the fire stone and be very careful of it until they had gotten the hang of how to do it.

I always thought that if they left the firestone too long in their mouth, saliva/water etc would start to react and could cause burns. Whereas if they crushed it in their mouths and swallowed then the stomach acids would start of the proper reaction.

So younger dragons would have to be taught carefully what volumes of firestone to ingest, how long to keep breaking it down, how long before thread to start ingesting and then to be able to do this while fighting thread was the skill of the dragon.

There wasn't much talk about mining firestone that I can recall so I am guessing it is a common ore on Pern and can readily be surface mined with little skill. Of course covering it from the elements might be a handy thing.

There may be some catalytic dragon reaction occouring to help the reaction start or some sort of damping action to prevent the dragons blowing themselves up.
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Old Jun 28 2006, 01:46 PM   #82
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Ok, I'm no chemist, so I don't know exactly how this would work, but... I can see the stuff being protected to some extent when it's in rock form up until it's digested if it's chewed properly, but once it starts getting digested, wouldn't that dissolve the protection, and then result in an upsurgance of spontaneously combusting dragons?
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Old Jun 28 2006, 04:26 PM   #83
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

no, cos it doesn't combust unless it comes in contact with oxygen, so assuming that no oxygen is in the dragon's second stomach it is safe until it is emitted. I'm going to have to do some drawing again!
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Old Jun 28 2006, 04:33 PM   #84
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

I'm with Edith on that exactly. There's two factors here: 1 - the phosphine gas, which reacts with oxygen to form flames. 2 - the reaction of the phosphide compound in the rocks with water/acid, producing the phosphine which will then react with the first oxygen it comes in contact with. So, while a volatile form of firestone is a major fire/explosion hazard in the presence of acid/water AND air, in the controlled enivornment of the second stomach, the dragon-grade stuff can be digested to form grey sludge and phosphine alone, and it can stay there happily until the dragon chooses to belch it out.

Anyway, I think we can all agree that it's VERY important that the dragon concentrates on its second stomach when it chews! You really wouldn;t want it going down the wrong way!
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Old Jun 28 2006, 05:04 PM   #85
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Ah ok, I was thinking it was just the contact with moisture than made it go off. Should've known that fire needs oxygen to fuel itself *forces mind dig up science classes*
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Old Jun 29 2006, 06:48 AM   #86
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Yes, the fire triangle - fule, heat and oxygen. Remove one of those factors, and you have no fire... in theroy. Although with chemical reactions, this rule doesn't always apply! But I think we can all agree that one of the key factors is oxygen
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Old Jun 30 2006, 12:29 PM   #87
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayru
I personally will take the blurb with a pinch of salt until the actual book comes out, which isn't that far off.

I personally (and again I will stress that word) do not see the point in specualting about the book based on publicity blurd, which may, or may not, be accurate, and was more then likely designed to make the book sound as exciting as possible to sell it.
[minor snips]

*cough*Looky-here!*cough*


Anyway, it'll be interesting to see what SuzyQ makes of our speculation, having read the ARC.
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Old Jun 30 2006, 01:00 PM   #88
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Guess I should have read here before answering in the other forum.

here goes,.... bear with me I read it late at night....

***Spoiler Alert *****

The dragons do not like the firestone they are currently training with. "It burns" states the dragon. They are taught to tolerate it to save Pern when the time comes. The stuff they are mining explodes on contact with water of any kind - steam, sweat, droplets - any water at all. So it is mined by the "Shunned" basically the people they later send to the Southern Continent. The problem the shunned have is that they are permanently marked with an S on their forehead which tells everyone who sees them that they are basically trash so to speak. Their children become orphans or are put to work in the mines or just "lost" as their parents do not have jobs/money/ etc......

One of the "bad" characters explodes the last mine to get revenge. The Lord holders takes a young man from the Cromcoal mine and puts him to work (with a friend) on finding another vein of firestone for the planet. Meanwhile one of the Weyr leaders (bad guy) sets up another mine himself without letting the other people know. Now our "resident bad" guy is back forcing the miner to give him about half of each days production. He tries to sell his firestone stash but has no takers - mainly because of it's volatility. So he explodes this mine as well. And tries to sell what he has again but alas - still no takers. He is eventually killed by Pellar.

Meanwhile one of the Harpers apprentices is sent to review the old records to see if there is another type of firestone. Their teaching songs talk about finding firestone on the beach with the firelizards and that sets the harper to thinking that there must be some that doesn't explode. They end up going to the Southern Continent to find what the Fire Lizards use..... That is where they find the original Firestone rocks. Thus our industrious miner goes hunting along the northern coast to find more rocks. He is caught in a landslide because the rocks are located in sandstone (?) that must be shored up. So here come our heroes Pellar & Halla to the rescue - Pellar is unable to speak, he is mute (big part of book).

In the end Pellar and Halla run the new firestone mine because our young miner impesses a dragon.

Hope this helps....

Kath - Sorry I dont' know the chemical specifics of either type of firestone.
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Old Jun 30 2006, 01:34 PM   #89
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath
[minor snips]

*cough*Looky-here!*cough*

The point I made about cover blurb and book publicity still stands. As I pointed out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayru
...and as I've said, it could be spot on. It's one of those annoying things.
BUT, it's good to know one way or the other - and at least we now know that there are two types of "firestone."
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Old Jun 30 2006, 04:47 PM   #90
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Ah, well it's nice to learn that this is a different TYPE of firestone. At least he's got some sense left in him.
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Old Jun 30 2006, 06:05 PM   #91
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
Ah, well it's nice to learn that this is a different TYPE of firestone. At least he's got some sense left in him.

And even better to know that I was on the right track based on Edith's research skills and a good dollop of common sense.
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Old Jul 1 2006, 04:47 PM   #92
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

glad to be of use! (nearly 8 books down now- dragonflight has had the most science in it so far- readibng in publication order, followed by Moreta)
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Old Oct 27 2006, 12:14 PM   #93
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

I have just read the whole topic and i'm really quite amazed to see how much the "anne's works compared to todd's" debate is similar with the one who disturbes the Dune fans community since years now, the infamous "Frank vs Brian" passionate and never-ending debate.

Same points : the son don't respect his father/mom's works, That's bad written, that's not the same "spirit" anymore....etc.....

As a fan of Brian Herbert, i can easily understand how the Todd's fans feel. (even if i don't like this much DK, DB and DF for being honest)

Anyway, for answering to the topic question, yes, i think the Todd's books are canon.

I mean, Anne has read those books (i hope ) and, well, she never complained or has said something that we can take as a rejection or as a "that's not canon !!" kind of message. ^^
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Old Nov 10 2006, 07:15 PM   #94
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Ok, here's what I think:
I don't know if it should be considered "canon" in the sense of the word you're using, but when did we lose the ability to enjoy a book for what it is. It's nice to focus on all the little details for stuff like the Quest, but when it starts keeping us from enjoying a book, it's too consuming.
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Old Nov 10 2006, 09:40 PM   #95
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Ah, but finding the holes is part of the fun, for some of us!
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Old Nov 10 2006, 09:54 PM   #96
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Fnding, examining, and explaining!
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Old Nov 10 2006, 10:00 PM   #97
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

True, Kath, for some.

But it isn't just the holes and mistakes and endless consistency errors that make another some of us strongly dislike the books, (although such a disregard for the series makes it difficult for me to 'enjoy the book for what it is', when it feels like Pern is being stamped upon) it's just that his stories aren't very good.
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Old Nov 10 2006, 10:07 PM   #98
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Good point. I'm voting with my wallet on that score.
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Old Feb 16 2007, 10:35 AM   #99
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2cent Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

**virtual applause**

You have put into words my feelings on Todd's work, and pointed out the important fact that *Anne was involved* with the writing. There, in a nutshell, is the reason to accept the differences between what what has been written in the past and in the newest books. She saw it, was involved in it=she OKed it.
Q.E.D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuu View Post
As I understand the McCaffrey household, Anne has/had this humongous pile of notes (hopefully inputted into a PC for ease of referencing) about her worlds---Pern, Crystal Singer, Ship series, Doona, Planet Pirates, etc.

Since Todd has complete, full and unfettered access to those notes, and each and everyone of us DO NOT, that should certainly count for something

For any of us to do FanFict that would be acceptable to others here, we HAVE TO STAY WITHIN canon, or provide the appropriate disclaimer that the work we do is NOT canon. We CANNOT provide any additional insights, discoveries, lost tech that the colonists and natives would interact with WITHOUT violating established canon. Period.

I'm not saying that we couldn't be better writers than Todd--but he DOES have the background and full info as to what's valid and what's not valid for Pern. In addition, he has Anne's full backing to continue the series. THOSE NOTES OF ANNE'S SAYS WHAT IS AND IS NOT CANON!

Therefore, anything that Todd introduces to the Pernese, what they are able to discover, lose, misuse, misunderstand--those things, we have to accept as most likely coming from those notes, and are therefore, by definition, are canon.

Just to make it clear: I'm not a fan of Todd. I'm not one of his defenders. I am, however, a fan of Anne's. When everyone was freaking about Pern being turned into film, many of the same people saying that Pern was going to be ruined if is didn't look like what THEY imagined it to look like--EVEN IF ANNE SAID THAT LOOK WAS WHAT SHE WANTED! The fact is, as much as I want to see Pern in film, I KNOW it will NEVER meet MY expectations---and that's just fine with me, so long as it meets Anne's!---The ONLY way that a version of Pern on film will be ruined for me is IF ANNE SAYS THAT IT'S NOT WHAT SHE WANTS!

I'm sorry. But evidently, some folk can't accept that THIS IS Anne's property. It doesn't belong to us! It belongs to HER! She and Todd have worked out how the series should progress, and she obviously approves of it. We have to understand that writing is very hard work and that Anne has become comfortable enough to let Todd drive for awhile.

If her lawyers had allowed her to see some of our work, then maybe, JUST MAYBE, she would've trusted someone else to do so--but it didn't happen and we'll never know. Tough. Get over it. Truth be told, there were other PROFESSIONAL writers that she collaborated with in the past, and NONE of them were sufficient for her to trust with Pern. That should also carry some weight for us to accept her decission.

And as much as I feel that I could probably do a better job with Pern than Todd, I have accepted that decission. But one thing I know that I cannot do is psycically know what are in those notes, and therefore, it's impossible for me to prove it, because NOTHING I WRITE WOULD BE CANON, unless I endlessly regurgitate what was set in established publications--and even then.... And I'm sorry, but the same has to be said about anyone else here--be it the authors of "Peggeth's Choice", "Dragonchoice", or any other FanFic--no matter how good those authors are.
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Old Feb 20 2007, 10:21 AM   #100
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Is this debate still going on?

LOL

I backed out of all this for a couple of good reasons;

1/ I am a fan of Pern, and have been for more years then I care to count. I don't need, and never have needed, to anaylise Pern to death in order to find what I like about it, and what I dislike, or what's right with it, or wrong with it. I tend to find if you over-analyise things, you end up disliking them in the end. Pern is fiction, and I'm happy to enjoy it as such. I know, I know I need to learn to duck when I state things like that, but tough. I am a fan of Pern, including Todd's books, those that have a problem with that, learn to live with it.

2/ I stated way back at the beginning of this thread that it really doesn't matter what we all think regarding whether Todd's books are canon or not. That's Anne's decision, not ours. As has been pointed out, Anne McCaffrey owns Pern, not the fans. I think this question was pretty pointless, and not well thought out. It's the sort of question that will (and did) cause arguments. I like a good debate. That got lost at the beginning. In order to debate a point you have to look at both sides of a point - did that happen?

3/ Anne will never hand Pern over to us, the fans, to control and continue on. Lets face it, we can't agree on what should be considered canon, not just regarding Todd's books, but some of the ones written by Anne. Some people feel all the books writen after Moreta should be ignored, some people feel only the first six books should read. Others would ignor all the books that have AIVAS in them. Some people accept all of Pern, as it is written, by her and Todd... And some people would feel the need to re-write it, and create Pern in there own image... Who's right? You'll never get everyone to agree, so you'd have to go with majority rules - which will leave people unhappy, and complaining.... Which is kind of where some of you are now

4/ All the people who took part in this thread have read at least one Pern story. And that would also include a Pern story that we liked as well. At some point some of you stopped liking what was being written about Pern. Phrases such as "badly written" "badly researched" "fan fic" were banded about (we're not just talking about Todd's books here either). Does the fault for that lie with the author, or the reader? It's an interesting question, because just as some people have found the books impossible to enjoy/read - others haven't. It's a question with no right answer. People are all different, and folks, it's those differences that make the world go round...

5/ During the first year of my degree course we were asked the question of how a book could be classified as "badly written". The conclusion we came to is that you can only state a book is badly written in your opinion. Just as you can state a book is fantastic in your opinion. You have to accept, not matter how it pains you, that your opinion is just as important and valid as the next persons. We kind of got there (in this thread) in the end. Kind of.

There is a fine line between fan and fanatic. Sometimes it can be hard to know what the difference is.
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Old Feb 20 2007, 11:42 AM   #101
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

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5/ During the first year of my degree course we were asked the question of how a book could be classified as "badly written". The conclusion we came to is that you can only state a book is badly written in your opinion. Just as you can state a book is fantastic in your opinion. You have to accept, not matter how it pains you, that your opinion is just as important and valid as the next persons. We kind of got there (in this thread) in the end. Kind of.
That's an interesting point, and generally very true.


However. Although there are definite scales of appreciation, and one person's opinion of a book as a whole will definitely be very different to someone else's, I do think there are aspects of an author's writing that can be singled out and judged.

Does the book remain internally consistent, with itself and with other works in that series? How effective is the characterisation? The pacing? The plot? The overall linguistic style? Once again, these are all things that different people will have differing opinions on, but overall, it should be pretty clear whether the writer manages it effectively or not. There'll be different styles, different ways of doing things - but once you start comparing like with like, then you can start making quantitative judgements. You can't apply this to an entire book, of course. While characteristation may be the be-all and end all for Sue, Mary may not give a toss about it so long as it's a fast-paced story with lots of zany plots. On the other hand, Gary may prefer something much more literary and steady, while Stu is a grammar-nazi always fussing about internal consistency. Neither are likely to agree on whether any given book is badly written, or well written, but they're surely able to consider discrete aspects of an author's prose in that light.

That's the good thing about Todd striking out in his own pass - he doesn't need to write in an identical manner to his mother, and he doesn't have to match her characterisation. But overall, I do think he's a weaker writer than Anne was at a similar age, when you compare all those different aspects separately, and I also think that the quality of Anne's writing has varied a lot between different books. He does do some things better than Anne, and for some readers that may be enough to make them judge him the better writer of the two. Or vice versa, for other readers. But as Jayru says, that's a meaningless judgement, and I have to agree with him on that broadest level.

The question is - does he agree with me that different readers can rate individual aspects of a writer's technical ability with anything like consistency?

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Old Feb 20 2007, 11:42 AM   #102
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Hear! Hear! both of you

I know there're books by Anne- short stories at least that I have trouble with, namely Runner of Pern as Anne seems to have forgotten that Horon is Jaxom's age! But I enjoy the story out of context- as a good story, not as cannonical, or I can try ignoring the pre-thread comments.
Yet there're things in Todd's books which explain things in Anne's books!

I can enjoy Todd's stuff, Anne's stuff and fan stuff, both cannonical and uncannonical if I want to, just as long as, in my opinion, they are readable!
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Old Feb 20 2007, 12:27 PM   #103
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

The first DRoP book I ever read was 'The White Dragon'. Now, I obviously knew little to nothing about Pern at this time, as so I found it absolutely enthralling. If I were to then pick up one of Todd's books and read it straight after, I daresay there are very few things that I would find dissimilar.

I think to an extent, because people know a different author has written it, they come to /expect/ inconsistencies and changes in writing style. I think perhaps if someone were to pick up one of Todd's books first and read it, they will still be just as enthralled as I was when I first read 'The White Dragon'.

Sometimes you just gotta take things as they are without trying to look too closely. At the end of the day books are there to entertain...^^

EDIT: And with regard to the point of 'A good book' - I hated, with a passion, Ian McEwans 'Enduring love'. When I say hated I mean I actually threw the book away when I finished my English course...didn't even put it in the charity bag...Now...that book won awards, and although I couldn't stand it at all...doesn't mean that other people didnt love it. The pace wass horrid, some linguistic features were awful, one or two of the characters were poorly thought-out...But /some/ of that can alo be based on opinion.
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Old Feb 20 2007, 01:01 PM   #104
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

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The question is - does he agree with me that different readers can rate individual aspects of a writer's technical ability with anything like consistency?

No I don't agree with you. It's still opinion at the end of the day, nothing more. One reason why I don't bother reading other opinions (*edit* about books). I prefer to make my own.

As for Todds writing - I don't see him as weak. He has a different approach and style. People were expecting Anne style of writing from her son, and were dissapointed when they didn't get it. I was expecting his style to be different - and I wasn't surprised to find it was. I thought Dragonsblood was a good book, and have found many people who agree with me. I still maintain that the issue is less about what Todd is writing, and more about the fact it isn't Anne doing it. But that's my opinion.



I realised something after my last post in this thread: this thread has a major flaw. What constitutes a "Todd Book"? Any Pern book book he's been involved with, or just those he wrote on his own? You see, when I look at the covers for Dragon's Kin and Dragon's Fire I see two names on them. If Anne's involved in writing the books, then the question of whether they are canon is mute. The only book that people can really ask that question of (at the moment) is Dragonsblood.

Last edited by Jayru; Feb 20 2007 at 01:58 PM. Reason: bad spelling
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Old Feb 20 2007, 01:15 PM   #105
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

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No I don't agree with you. It's still opinion at the end of the day, nothing more. One reason why I don't bother reading other opinions. I prefer to make my own.
Isn't that rather narrow-minded? No-one sees the whole of any situation, and we all look at things in different ways; considering the opinion of others is a good way fo building a wider foundation for one's own opinions.
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Old Feb 20 2007, 01:41 PM   #106
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Isn't that rather narrow-minded? No-one sees the whole of any situation, and we all look at things in different ways; considering the opinion of others is a good way fo building a wider foundation for one's own opinions.
I just prefer to use my mind, rather then let other people make it up for me. If and when I feel the need for other peoples opinions I have never been shy in asking for them.

But we're talking about books, and the only way to truly know if you're going to enjoy one or not is to read it, and find out for yourself, and make your own mind up. I might be wrong, but I can't think of any better way of finding that out...

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Old Feb 20 2007, 03:06 PM   #107
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

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No I don't agree with you. It's still opinion at the end of the day, nothing more. One reason why I don't bother reading other opinions (*edit* about books). I prefer to make my own.
Well, Kath does have a valid point--how the books are consistant with each other.

For example: somebody who dies in one book suddenly is there in the sequal, or that person's dragon changes color, etc.

So far, Anne has been the one guilty of that.

While Todd has written things contrary to what Anne gave in interviews (something to which Anne is also guilty), he has yet to write something that contradicts what was actually published. And before Bronzie (Spiff) points out whers eating thread--> *points to DragonQuest* where Kylara reported her queen native ate thread and she was quite emphatic that it was what she saw. Lots of people discount that because she was a selfish, manipulative, lazy slut who eventually caused both her dragon and Wirenth's deaths--but there are limits to which even a psychopathic liar won't cross, and no one has yet to show that Kylara was such a pathological liar.

I'd say the closest that Todd has come to messing up was the characterization of Lorna calling the lost dragons back from between. I don't even say that she recovered too easily from losing her own dragon, because as I read the story, I saw there was much more time involved between those events than what Brekke had before her native shocked her out of the re-Impression, or the rider-turned-renegade Giron had before he recovered most of his wits.
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Old Feb 20 2007, 06:54 PM   #108
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

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Well, Kath does have a valid point--how the books are consistant with each other.
Consistancy problems in the Pern saga existed the moment Dragonquest was published - such as Larth suddenly changing from green to brown... I have a whole page listed of them on Rukbat3.

I found a couple of inconsistencies between what Anne has published and Dragonsblood (such Emily Boll being refered to as Lady Holder of Boll Hold - according to The Chronicles of Pern Boll Hold wasn't established/named until after her death). Aside from that sort of thing what Todd wrote was consistent with Pern as Anne created it, (IMOO).

Dragonsblood is what it is, a first novel. People seem to have expected great wonderful things from Todd's first solo book - don't get me wrong, it is a good book. What will be more interesting is to see how much his writing has improved in his next solo venture. Look at the difference between Anne's first novel, Restoree, and her second Dragonquest - ahhh, Dragonflight dosn't count folks, it's made up of two expanded novellas. Dragonquest is her true second novel becasue that's how it was written. Not that I am knocking Dragonflight, it is a very remarkable novel, but it had the benefit of already having been published accross three Analogs, and was then compiled and re-written to what most of us know now . It will be interesting to see how different Todd's style is in Dragonstime.

Ryuu, I would suggest you hide behind something, because some people are not going to be happy about being reminded of Kylara's comments about her fire-lizzard eating thread - I'm still licking my wounds on that one myself - although I quite agree with what you are saying on that score.

Interviews, I will never understand why some people on here feel that they constitute some sort of binding contract on Anne's part. They are what they are - her thoughts at the time. She's allowed to change her mind.
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Old Feb 20 2007, 07:13 PM   #109
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

I think that Dragons blood will make more sense after the next joint book or two, it made more sense after Dragonsfire. There will always be inconcistences, Todd appears to be trying, rightly or wrongly, to fix them.

Actually the cross-pass historical errors don't jar as much, as its obvious how quite recent history gets twisted among the general public even with modern methods of recording
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Old Feb 20 2007, 07:24 PM   #110
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

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Consistancy problems in the Pern saga existed the moment Dragonquest was published - such as Larth suddenly changing from green to brown... I have a whole page listed of them on Rukbat3.
Try more like from the moment that "Weyr Search" was made into the full-length novel, "Dragonflight" But that comes from turning a short story that was supposed to have been a complete story in itself. It was never intended to have been made into 16+ novels.

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I found a couple of inconsistencies between what Anne has published and Dragonsblood (such Emily Boll being refered to as Lady Holder of Boll Hold - according to The Chronicles of Pern Boll Hold wasn't established/named until after her death). Aside from that sort of thing what Todd wrote was consistent with Pern as Anne created it, (IMOO).
But couldn't that be from the nature of legends forming in the Pernese society? Three Passes and over 750 Turns, things like accurate histories are going to quickly degenerate into myth, especially when you have folks like Chalkin getting their chance to mess it up--and I'm sure there would've been other occassions for someone to make a mess of things.

Quote:
Dragonsblood is what it is, a first novel. People seem to have expected great wonderful things from Todd's first solo book - don't get me wrong, it is a good book. What will be more interesting is to see how much his writing has improved in his next solo venture. Look at the difference between Anne's first novel, Restoree, and her second Dragonquest - ahhh, Dragonflight dosn't count folks, it's made up of two expanded novellas. Dragonquest is her true second novel becasue that's how it was written. Not that I am knocking Dragonflight, it is a very remarkable novel, but it had the benefit of already having been published accross three Analogs, and was then compiled and re-written to what most of us know now . It will be interesting to see how different Todd's style is in Dragonstime.

Ryuu, I would suggest you hide behind something, because some people are not going to be happy about being reminded of Kylara's comments about her fire-lizzard eating thread - I'm still licking my wounds on that one myself - although I quite agree with what you are saying on that score.
I don't have any problems about that. My teeth are too big and sharp for anyone to thnk of bothering me

The way I look at it, so much of it comes down to those notes that Anne has squirled away in her home What do they say about Thread? What more do they say about the true nature of the natives, both enhanced and non-? What was the real motivation of Tubberman, Ping, & Wind Blossom? What else is in them? We can't know until they get put in the books.

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Interviews, I will never understand why some people on here feel that they constitute some sort of binding contract on Anne's part. They are what they are - her thoughts at the time. She's allowed to change her mind.
True. And she's done so, and by contradicting many of her own interviews
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Old Feb 20 2007, 07:30 PM   #111
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I think that Dragons blood will make more sense after the next joint book or two, it made more sense after Dragonsfire. There will always be inconcistences, Todd appears to be trying, rightly or wrongly, to fix them.
That's what I see, as well. There were just too many puzzles still remaining between the 1st Pass and the 9th after Chronicles was published, such as the Benden Weyr rooms that Jaxom and Flessan found, and more that isn't explained by the 6th Pass books around Moreta--and there are STILL questions about THAT, too!

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Actually the cross-pass historical errors don't jar as much, as its obvious how quite recent history gets twisted among the general public even with modern methods of recording
Very true! Is it even theoretically possible to get a No-Spin-Pern Zone created?
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Old Feb 21 2007, 12:48 PM   #112
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

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But couldn't that be from the nature of legends forming in the Pernese society? Three Passes and over 750 Turns, things like accurate histories are going to quickly degenerate into myth, especially when you have folks like Chalkin getting their chance to mess it up--and I'm sure there would've been other occassions for someone to make a mess of things.
Ahh, the inconsistency I was refering to from Dragonsblood is set in the First Pass section of the story, reference to Wind Blossems remembered final conversation with Emily Boll - and contradicts what Anne had written of the First Pass in COP.

However, I quiet agree (and again, I have stuff like this on Rukbat3) that 2500 years later in the Ninth Pass it is quite likely the facts may have been recorded wrong - after all AIVAS could only tell them what was recorded in there records - and doubt that Hide would have survived 2,000 years and - which would explain why Ninth Pass Pern has Emily Boll recorded as founding Southern Boll Hold (Skies of Pern) - when in fact it was her husband, a year after she died (The Ford Of Red Hanrahan, Chronicles of Pern).
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Old Feb 21 2007, 01:25 PM   #113
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That, and the fact that the term Governor would be obsolete and the nearest analogue would be lord/lady holder
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Old Feb 21 2007, 05:47 PM   #114
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

There's also the Ballad of Moreta as mentioned in Anne's early Pern writing compared with the "true" story as written later. History versus balladic myth (or mythic ballad)
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Old Feb 21 2007, 06:12 PM   #115
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That was deliberately changed, as would things like Queen battles- it's hinted at in DQ that D'ram was involved in one but the knowledge was lost, perhaps deliberately as its not particulary positive. Oh, there's also the edited harper repetoire in MHOP.
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Old Feb 24 2007, 09:42 AM   #116
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

It's one of the things I began to pick up when I started work on the inconsistencies section of my site - a lot of them can be very simply explained away as historical inaccuracies. Obvioulsy some (like Lord Oteral suddenly appearing at the end of Dolphins of Pern, after being dead 4+ years) can't be explained and are geniune mistakes - but so what? This stuff happens in every series. Even the various incarnations of Star Trek are not imune to continuity problems and inconsistencies...

I've said it before - Anne never planned Pern as a long ongoing series of novels/short stories/novellas - it's something that has just happened.

It hasn't changed my love of the books, or my enjoyment in reading them. It is, after folks, just fiction...
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Old Feb 24 2007, 10:51 AM   #117
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I'd go as far as saying that the inclusion of historical inaccuracies makes the world building more believable rather than less. People and societies are generally not that reliable.
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Old Feb 27 2007, 08:29 AM   #118
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I'd go as far as saying that the inclusion of historical inaccuracies makes the world building more believable rather than less. People and societies are generally not that reliable.
True - it's nice to know that such mistakes can add to the "realism" of the saga. Nice to know that making mistakes can work out for the best
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Old Feb 28 2007, 12:37 AM   #119
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Geee!! Without some of these lovely historical inaccuracies...where would we be for some of those "McCaffrey Quest" zinger question...or some of these grand discussions.
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Old Aug 29 2007, 07:58 AM   #120
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Hello everybody,
sorry to butt in as a newby, but I think evenso Todd writes different from Anne (I'm not going to say good or bad) and there are inconsistencys, it is an ASSET that he is not Anne.
He sees Pern in a different light and sees aspects that might have never occured to Anne, like firestone. She invented it to "explain" how the dragons can breath fire, left it at that and never went back to write more about it. He thought, that there should be said more about it and that just made Pern richer in detail.
It is the same with Dragonblood. Not that I don't like Dragon Dawn, I do, it is one of my favourite, but Kitty Ping just made them and then they are perfect, because she made them. Anne left it at that, because her thing is the later stages of the society (at least I got the feeling). He thought that that is too simple, that there could be dangers in just making a new species. And even created an inbook explanation for Ruth (even so I don't think that that was his intention).
So whether you like the style and characters or not, he created and will create new aspects you can (but don't have to) include in your imagination.
And I can see nothing bad about that.
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