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View Poll Results: Should Todd's work be considered canon?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! 27 26.47%
ABSOLUTELY YES!!! 30 29.41%
Only some of it. 14 13.73%
Not without a LOT of work and better explanations. 31 30.39%
Voters: 102. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Apr 6 2006, 09:28 PM   #41
Anareth
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath

Yeah - just think... we could have been landed with...

KEVIN J ANDERSON!

You know, honestly, it's killing me to say it, but...I think I'd prefer Kevin. Yeah, his plotting skills are a bit...wonky...but at least he's readably bad at times. Obviously I've repressed the memories of those X-Files novels, but still...

*ducks bronzed copies of D*rks*b*r, remembers this is wrong board for that*

No one is saying that you can't LIKE something. However, saying it's objectively good? Er...not so much. Or worse, that's it's good because OMG ANNE SEZ or that we should all just be grateful we're getting ANY Pern at all so shut up and take it.

Having the name "McCaffrey" on the cover does not mean what's inside is quality writing. Nor does it mean that everyone who likes Pern has to accept everything published as good and wonderful, even if it isn't. I like "Beyond Between." But it's rather odd and it doesn't fit well with everything else. And the characterizations are off-kilter at times. My liking it does not make it well-written or even a good fit with the rest of Pern.
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Old Apr 6 2006, 09:30 PM   #42
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Looks like I'm with the majority on this one... not without a lot of work and better explanations.
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Old Apr 6 2006, 09:41 PM   #43
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayru
Why do some of you find it so hard to accept that people can enjoy Todds books? Why does it always come down to someone saying something along the lines of "you must enjoy bad books" or "you must read anything."

It's increadable insulting, and increadable rude. It's implys a lot of things - that really ammount to little more than assumptions about someone they do not know.

But then, that's the point isn't it?
I think "well-written" is obviously in the eye of the beholder. Some of us don't like the books authored by Todd because we feel they aren't well written. Others do like them, because obviously they feel they are... and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with it.

If everyone liked the same things, the world would be an awfully damn boring place. There would never be discussions from different sides, there would never be any flavour to life if no one was different from anyone else.

It's strange how this thread went from talking about if Todd's Pern books should be considered canon, to what it's turned into. Wel, actually, it has gone back and forth, but still. *shrugs*

But, I'm straying from my point. Wait... what was my point?

Oh yeah! My point is, simply put: To each their own. Right?
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Old Apr 17 2006, 01:55 PM   #44
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

I think well-written is not just a matter of personal opinion. There are general standards that can be applied. You can still enjoy a book that is not well-written - I know that I have some favorites that are full of cliches. But Todd's Pern books bother me.
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Old Apr 17 2006, 02:51 PM   #45
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda
I think well-written is not just a matter of personal opinion. There are general standards that can be applied. You can still enjoy a book that is not well-written - I know that I have some favorites that are full of cliches. But Todd's Pern books bother me.
I agree - as do many other people.

I remember, years ago while I was still waiting for Moreta to be published, being at a dance or some event where I was outside having a cigarette and talking to some people. The subject turned to books, and at the time I said my favorite author was McCaffrey. One of the women I was talking to answered with, "McCaffrey tells a great yarn, but she is not a great writer."

Even then I had to agree with her. Considering that I was introduced to her after reading Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein and had just discovered Zelazny, at that young age I still knew, deep in my soul that she was an *enjoyable* writer but not a *great* writer.
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Old Apr 17 2006, 03:23 PM   #46
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

*starts to read with enthusiasm and looses interest*

yap yap yap...yark yark yark...yadda yadda yadda

Read what you want, enjoy it or dont.

Quote:
I have plenty of books that I've found enjoyable that I know as a writer are utter crap in terms of writing quality. (The Dragonlance books spring to mind. They're scripted D&D adventures, basically, but for mindless summer reading? They're tops.)
I agree completely. I several that are litterally falling apart from overuse. They are great for going to the beach for a bit of tanning and fluff reading.

Quote:
The vast majority of people who have read Pern and buy the books do not bother going on-line to discuss it. They also would likely not feel more than a minor "Oh, well" if there were never any more Pern books, ever. I can safely say this as I'm the daughter of one of those readers. My mother, who introduced me to Pern and enjoyed most of the books, could happily continue with her life if there was never any more Pern, ever.
Yup. Daughter here too...mom does the same as yours....your not my twin are you?

Dyna
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Old Apr 18 2006, 09:58 PM   #47
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyna



Yup. Daughter here too...mom does the same as yours....your not my twin are you?

Dyna
LOL...nope, probably not. I just have a brother. Who also, btw, reads Pern, and liked it enough to get the shirt with the Whelan TWD cover for Christmas one year. But he's another one who really wouldn't care if there were ten more Pern books or none at all. Life would go on, one way or another.
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Old Apr 18 2006, 11:02 PM   #48
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

I'm the only McCaffrey enthusiast in my family/friends group that I know of.
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Old Apr 18 2006, 11:34 PM   #49
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Talk about this being an extremely heated discussion. Personally, I think there are fors and againsts for every author that I've ever read in my tender young life and I've read a helluva lot of books/authors in that small time frame. Majority seem to have voted for Anne and minority for Todd. Realistically speaking, most authors, when writing a series, occasionally make mistakes, however small or large and us as a reader, go "WHAT THE...? Did he/she forget about that character or event etc?"

All I'm asking is, please don't be the straw that broke the poor camel's backside. I'm not sure whether I want to pick the pieces up or not. Could be fatal, me writing this.
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Old Apr 19 2006, 01:44 AM   #50
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

I highly doubt that your post would negatively affect the life of the thread, Jube This isn't even that heated, compared to a couple other threads
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Old Apr 19 2006, 06:44 PM   #51
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Brrr, bit chilly in here isn't it? *looks round for a heater to turn up *
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Old Apr 19 2006, 10:53 PM   #52
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Well, I could fire it up but my halo might fall off, and trip me over in the process so I'll stick to being in the middle and flow on from there.

.................................................. .................................................. ...

Where art thou, white dragon, that you must travel 'between' times and places, that affects a whole world?
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Old Apr 20 2006, 08:44 PM   #53
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*looks around* Is all the argument nearly over?
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Old Apr 21 2006, 08:14 AM   #54
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

I think the different viewpoints have agreed to disagree.
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Old Apr 27 2006, 07:25 PM   #55
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Dead horse flogging posts move to a new topic.
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Old Apr 27 2006, 09:54 PM   #56
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That's good. *climbs back out from behind large rock*
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Old Jun 16 2006, 06:53 PM   #57
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Could someone please tell me what was actually wrong with the two books!
cos I've looked- admittedly I only borrowed Dragaonsblood yesterday- but I've read it once!- and beyond the usual continuity errors, and Anne makes enough of those anyway, I haven't found anyrthing glaringly wrong.
yes, people say things that are wrong, but these are holders that haven't been well educated,
and there's the whole watchwher eating thread thing... from the stuff I heard here it sounded as if it was the major part of the book but it's not!
I'm confused!
actually, I quite liked it, ok, it's nowhere near perfect, but it's far better than I expected with some of the comments here!
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Old Jun 18 2006, 03:38 PM   #58
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Well, with Dragonsblood, anyway, the biggest problem seems to be Lorana. She's beautiful! She's smart! She's the bestest artist everywhere! Everyone loves her! Those who don't either come around and admit she's the most wonderful person ever or they die horribly! She's so special, someone in the midst of LOSING THEIR OWN DRAGON worries about how Lorana's going to feel, because she's SUCH a super HAD, she can even hear them when they're between, even when they're off to suicide. She figures out advanced genetic engineering in a couple hours by reading a four-hundred-year-old "Dragon Genetics For Dummies"!

I think what really pisses me off about DB more than DK (which is just kind of sloppy writing, with a trite ending and flat characters) is how in DB, losing your dragon is so...blase. Nice to know that Brekke (in a cataonic fugue for weeks) and Lytol (unable even to stand being around dragonRIDERS years after the fact in DF) and Readis the elder (full-on psychotic) and Kylara (mental infant for life) are such weak, useless ninnys that they let a little thing like being dragonless get to them. Everyone in DB basically seems to go "Oh noes! My dragon ded from cold. Oh well."
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Old Jun 18 2006, 06:08 PM   #59
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

What she said. And there was just so much MORE that it could have done, and without the crazy talking through time sort of thing. That was just nuts, almost bordering on magic. Some people might say "Well how ELSE would they figure it out?" Well I'd say, why write them INTO that corner in the first place, when the only way out is some weird supernatural ability? They fixed their problems on their own in Moreta, I'd have been much more satisfied with something like that. Actually, no I wouldn't because then it would just be copying Moreta. Meh. Not to mention lifting plot twists from Dragonquest. "Oooh look! They went back in time to breed more dragons so they won't be so screwed! Wait... I think I've seen this before..." *yawn*

I would have much rather seen more interaction with the rest of Pern. Some heated meetings with other Lord holders and stuff. I can't remember much of the book, but I don't recall anything like that happening.

Ah, and the continuity errors. Yes, Anne has made flubs, but usually it's just a whole bunch of little things - dragon color swaps, name flubs, timeline woopsies, dragon size description inconsistancies... alot of them things that you usually don't pick up unless you're looking very closely or have reread em a bunch of times. But Todd's errors are blatant, in-your-face mistakes and logistical problems that I just CANNOT see how he could let it pass.

Plus he dropped a couple storylines flat without explanation. "Lookie, I'm the bestest artist of my age and I'm gonna go all over Pern and draw every single last critter there is! Oooooh but now I have a lovely new dragon, screw that!" If she wants to give it up, fine... but at least have some follow up! It's just dropped and never mentioned again, pretty much...
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Old Jun 18 2006, 06:26 PM   #60
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anareth
*snip* Nice to know that Brekke (in a cataonic fugue for weeks) and Lytol (unable even to stand being around dragonRIDERS years after the fact in DF) and Readis the elder (full-on psychotic) and Kylara (mental infant for life) are such weak, useless ninnys that they let a little thing like being dragonless get to them. Everyone in DB basically seems to go "Oh noes! My dragon ded from cold. Oh well."
It wasn't Readis, but Giron, who was an ex-dragonrider (blue, IIRC).
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Old Jun 18 2006, 06:31 PM   #61
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Oh, good memory C_ris! I didn't bat an eye at Anareth's list, but you are correct!
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Old Jun 18 2006, 07:43 PM   #62
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

I had to check my list for the exact name, but I did know it started with a G!
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Old Jun 18 2006, 09:55 PM   #63
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Shows how many times I reread Renegades--twice was enough! (Sorry, despise that book and everyone in it.) Point stands, though--in the 9th Pass, if you lose your dragon, you suffer serious psychological damage. In DB? Oh, well, on with your life.
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Old Jun 19 2006, 03:57 AM   #64
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I'd argue from this lack of trauma from dragon death that Todd just isn't cut out to write emotion, that that's a major weakness with him, and, unfortunately, we who hate his books do so because of that lack.

We don't feel what it's like to lose a dragon, the depths are not depths but flat plains. Consequently, the highs don't seem so much like highs.
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Old Jun 20 2006, 06:39 PM   #65
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

The only 2 characters I have a real gripe with are the two other weyrwomen!
At least Lorana gets a leetle bit depressed!
one loses her dragon and gets over it uberquick and the other one is superbitch-except for one moment until she returns from timing it.
There could have been a little more emotion, yes, the lack of loss could be explained away a little by the sheer stress and having to do things, so that the loss doesn't sink in, but i think if I['d've done it I would have put in signs that the shock would sink in.
is it just me, or was the bit about Kindan and setting fire to the archives not explained at all!
I dunno!
I quite liked the story but I agree there was something missing- I did get a bit sad when the 1 weyrling is left at Telgar (ah- there is a problem with this book-I can't remember names at all!) but it wasn't AS bad as alot of people here made out!
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Old Jun 27 2006, 08:14 AM   #66
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

As an interesting side note to all this, the uk paperback of Dragonsblood is going to be a longer edit of the book.

Although I doubt it will make a difference for some people on here, but it will be interesting to see what's put back into the story, and see if parts have been fleshed out more.
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Old Jun 27 2006, 08:27 AM   #67
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

yeah, some things did need fleshing out!

this might annoy the Todd haters here but in my research for the science of Pern stuff I'm doing I found out that 1 of the things that people were complaining about over the plot of dragonfire- that is firestone and water rweact violently- may actually be right!
the ONLY mineral I've found which produces phosphine is calcium phosphide, which reacts with, yup, you guessed it! Water!!!!

the equation is Ca3P2 +6H2O= 3Ca(OH)2 +2PH3

this is from Inorganic Chemistry by Adlam and Price 2nd Edition October 1940
PH3 is phosphine
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Old Jun 27 2006, 08:47 AM   #68
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
yeah, some things did need fleshing out!

this might annoy the Todd haters here but in my research for the science of Pern stuff I'm doing I found out that 1 of the things that people were complaining about over the plot of dragonfire- that is firestone and water rweact violently- may actually be right!
the ONLY mineral I've found which produces phosphine is calcium phosphide, which reacts with, yup, you guessed it! Water!!!!

the equation is Ca3P2 +6H2O= 3Ca(OH)2 +2PH3

this is from Inorganic Chemistry by Adlam and Price 2nd Edition October 1940
PH3 is phosphine
I seem to remember some fun experiments along those lines from my school days
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Old Jun 27 2006, 08:53 AM   #69
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
yeah, some things did need fleshing out!

this might annoy the Todd haters here but in my research for the science of Pern stuff I'm doing I found out that 1 of the things that people were complaining about over the plot of dragonfire- that is firestone and water rweact violently- may actually be right!
the ONLY mineral I've found which produces phosphine is calcium phosphide, which reacts with, yup, you guessed it! Water!!!!

Heh. The trouble is, as far as Pern-science goes, there's so much that hasn't been thought through clearly. So, as soon as one thing gets fixed--e.g. figuring out what firestone is actually made of--another thing breaks--e.g. the implication that firestone could easily blow a dragon's head off as soon as it comes into contact with its watery saliva...
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Old Jun 27 2006, 11:31 AM   #70
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Speculation on what happens with firestone in Dragon's Fire is pretty pointless until the book comes out.
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Old Jun 27 2006, 12:15 PM   #71
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Speculation on any aspect of Anne-science is pretty pointless, but it's fun all the same. Anyway, would you suggest that we completely ignore all the pre-publication information already out there?
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Old Jun 27 2006, 02:23 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath
Speculation on any aspect of Anne-science is pretty pointless, but it's fun all the same. Anyway, would you suggest that we completely ignore all the pre-publication information already out there?
I would suggest that making comments about it might be foolish until the book is out, and we know what Todd actually has to say on the subject, rather then using the publicity blurb that someone else has created to make the book sound exciting, and marketable.
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Old Jun 27 2006, 03:08 PM   #73
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Edith's speculations are based on the fact that firestone is known to be the source of the phosphine gas that the dragons use to sear thread.

From every single piece of information about Dragon's Fire, the volatility of firestone is clearly a major plot point, and is very unlikely to not be confirmed in the full text.

Although not stated elsewhere in Pernese canon, the volatility/reactiveness of a phosphine bearing compound is in fact, very plausible.

However, we see no evidence for any risks associated with the mining, storage or consumption of firestone in any other book. If I'm speculating on anything here, it's the rather blase' attitude towards firestone that we see in EVERY OTHER BOOK; its potential treatment in Dragon's Fire is totally by-the-by.

Now tell me Jayru, what part of our speculation are you having problems with exactly? Because the only use of DFire info so far is as a back up to normal chemistry; the issue isn't whether DFire is right or wrong, but rather the fact that Edith's investigation into the nature of firestone has confirmed that it IS likely to be a rather nasty substance, and although that leaves some obvious plot-holes/errors of omission in the other books, that aspect of Pern-science is in fact apparently treated rather well in the up-coming DFire.

Geez, you really do seem to react as if every post of mine is some kind of Anne/Todd bashing exercise. We may not see eye-to-eye on many things, but please, respond to what I've written, not what you think I'm doing. And why is speculation foolish anyway? It's speculation, for crying out loud. The whole point of it is that we don't know the answer, and we're exploring all possible options.
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Old Jun 27 2006, 04:40 PM   #74
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Kath, no offense, but take a step back, and a deep breath.

Puiblicity blurb for books is generally based on in-house reviews, and not always of the final product. Sometimes its based on a story outline - so not the actual novel that ends up being written. It's used to help market a book, but it's not always the stuff that ends up on the dust jacket/back of the book.

I personally will take the blurb with a pinch of salt until the actual book comes out, which isn't that far off.

Specualting about what Todd (and lets not forget Anne as her name is on this book too) have changed about firestone is pointless, becasue we don't know yet that they have actually changed anything. It could well be (and would not be the first time) that the person who reviewed the book (and yes, the current blurb is based on a review of the book from several months ago, before the final proof copy was put together - I still have good contacts at Transworld) was more then likely asked to give an exciting review to help sell the book in advance to the major retellers, and is making a big point out of something that may end up being a tiny unimportant detail - or there again may not, it may well be a BIG point in the book. I haven't read it, so I don't know. Unless you've read one of the proof copies that's floating about at the moment, then you can't say for certain either.

I personally (and again I will stress that word) do not see the point in specualting about the book based on publicity blurd, which may, or may not, be accurate, and was more then likely designed to make the book sound as exciting as possible to sell it.

I haven't argued with anyone's "facts," or disagred with them. I simply have made a point based on an industy I know, and have worked in, that the blurb may be misleading, and may well end up leading you up the garden path.

If you're truely investigating all possible expliantions (which I totally agree with doing, and have said so many times on this site) then is it not a good idea to take note of the fact that the information you are using might be wrong, and include that data in what you are working out? Is that sort of information not helpful or useful?

I would personally hold off, wait and see what the facts are, and then work out any explinations - if that needs to be done
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Old Jun 27 2006, 04:58 PM   #75
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Step back, deep breath, check.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath
...but please, respond to what I've written...
...and...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kath
Because the only use of DFire info so far is as a back up to normal chemistry; the issue isn't whether DFire is right or wrong, but rather the fact that Edith's investigation into the nature of firestone has confirmed that it IS likely to be a rather nasty substance, and although that leaves some obvious plot-holes/errors of omission in the other books, that aspect of Pern-science is in fact apparently treated rather well in the up-coming DFire.
You know, I'm quite happy to ignore the existence of DFire full stop, but I do think that what Edith has noticed in terms of the contents of the cover text and phosphine chemistry is a very nice, noteworthy point. And of course the blurb could be completely wide of the mark -- they generally are, after all!

But once again, let me point out that the main brunt of the speculation is on the nature of firestone as presented in every book other than DFire. Anyway, I think we may have been communicating at cross purposes a little here. Shall we at least agree to agree, that a cover blurb isn't worth the paper it's printed on?
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Old Jun 27 2006, 05:15 PM   #76
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath
Shall we at least agree to agree, that a cover blurb isn't worth the paper it's printed on?
That's the point I have been making - although, and as I've said, it could be spot on. It's one of those annoying things.

Edith, as always, makes very good points. It will be interesting to see where she goes with this
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Old Jun 27 2006, 06:05 PM   #77
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

I've found out it is possible to build up a resitance to phosphine!
I love Wikipedia!
I really need to read all the books before I do any writing up of the Science of Pern but... I have got alot on phosphine and HNO3.

Oooh... I thought you meant you knew chemistry for a moment then Jay. I didn't have space for it at A level- so I'm working at things from a physics/biology pov.
I might have a go at a phosphine system for the dragons- it might work.
this is interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphine
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Old Jun 28 2006, 04:20 AM   #78
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

That's another very interesting article, Edith. I figured that there'd need to be some kind of buffer chemical in firestone to limit the reactiveness until it reaches stomach acid, so it's good to know all the chemistry legwork has already been done.

Actually, the presence of other chemicals could be a very useful tool to allow for variable reactiveness of something like firestone. Like all other minerals/ores, it's not likely to exist in purified lumps, but rather in the presence of other minerals and chemicals and in different grades/concentrations. It's really very plausible that the dragon-grade firestone could be safe to store/consume (providing you keep it clear of weak to strong acids, and generally out of large puddles... but it might easily survive a bit of a brief shower if it's protected by a good layer of oil/oxides/dust/whatever), but that it's not all of that quality. Within a mine, you may have odd pockets of grade A1 material, mixed up with the more reactive, dangerous B2/C3 grade firestone, in the presence of which you would need to be very wary of humidity/moisture/water.

Anyway, I can always brush off my chemistry notes as well, but I'm sure I'm not the only one here with an A-level in the subject, and there's bound to be someone with degree level qualifications.

Oh, and did you get your exam results yet?
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Old Jun 28 2006, 05:18 AM   #79
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

Pretty much my own thoughts on the subjet of wet firestone = explosion, Kath.

The stuff that seems to be lying around the surface of Pern must be a of a low grade not to blow up when it rains, and obvioulsy must be of a low enough grade so that the moisture within Dragons and Fielizards doesn't cause them to explode

Of course, what sort of purity level do dragons require when consuming it?
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Old Jun 28 2006, 07:46 AM   #80
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Default Re: Should Todd's books be considered canon?

I'd say that for the dragons/flits, the main factor isn't the concentration of the phosphine emitting gas, but the concentration of whatever compound/chemical/mineral limits its reactivity to second-stomach-acid rather than H2O. You've got a sliding scale of two factors -let's say the x-axis is phosphine production, and the y-axis is the amount of whatever substance acts as an explosiveness protection.


Low Phosphide, High protection------------------------High Phosphide, High protection
----= safe, but not much use--------------------------------= dragon-grade firestone

Low Phosphide, low protection---------------------------High Phosphide, low protection
=reactive, but not a major hazard-----------------------=DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!


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