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Old Mar 18 2008, 05:07 PM   #81
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Ok, so I'm certain in the books its been noted that a dragon cannot fly when its wings are injured? I know there were instances when a wing was injured and a dragon was unable to fly, or fell immediatly.... so isn't that proof enough that the wings are NEEDED for flight, and may be of the most importance??
If the dragons DO use TK, it is an unconscious use. They are "thinking" themselves light without realizing it. As far as they're concerned, they are flying solely with their wings. So if something happens to a wing, they can't fly.
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Old Mar 18 2008, 05:57 PM   #82
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If the dragons DO use TK, it is an unconscious use. They are "thinking" themselves light without realizing it. As far as they're concerned, they are flying solely with their wings. So if something happens to a wing, they can't fly.
I don't know, I guess I like to think of dragons in the sense that wings are needed, that the dragons just don't "believe" they are needed.... maybe thats just me....
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Old Mar 19 2008, 12:27 AM   #83
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There's a very interesting article on geckos here. I haven't watched the videos as I'm in lab but it looks at new evidence that the gecko's long tail helps with manoeuvrability both when falling and when gliding.
Now, this might not be of overly much use when discussing Pern unless we want to do a bit of reverse thinking, but it gives a bit of a clue to how the dragon might use a long tail.
I recall seeing an image once of a reconstruction of one of the pterodactyl species and it had a long tail, used in a similar fashion, I would assume. A smaller creature than a pterodon or dragon of course, but the principle is the same.
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Old Mar 19 2008, 02:11 PM   #84
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I'll say again, I'm looking at the possible, not the probable, and only so far as to suspend disbelief. I do, after all, enjoy these stories.

--

It's not necessary to figure any of this out. It's fun. This is a passtime after all.

TK is far more improbable than the dragons being able to fly aerodynamically. And it doesn't make sense. Nature abhors a vacuum, and if dragons' wings are unnecessary and vestigial, which they would be by definition if dragons fly solely by TK, then they would evolve steadily smaller wings. They do not. Instead they continue to increase in size (and wingspan, and wing area) above and beyond their designed size. Evolution of the dragons is selecting for size and particularly for wing size--to what purpose?
Our difference in opinion is that you think there is some slight probability that it could be possible, while I do not. I don't think we can reconcile that

And of course TK is improbable. In our world. But on Pern, it's a solid fact, which is why I can more easily accept that it helps them fly. Try to tell me that a bumblebee flies on TK and I'll laugh in your face But since TK is an option on Pern, it seems far more likely than the alternative to me.

Their wings are by no means vestigial. As mentioned earlier, firelizards had them for a reason, but when they were genetically altered, they just served a lesser purpose as their TK was given a massive boost. Since it's primarily an unconscious ability, unless otherwise trained, I can't imagine that the use of it would give the finer subtleties of flight and more intricate, controlled maneuvers. It seems mostly for bearing weight in the air, while the wings are used for maneuverability.

As for evolution, it's impossible for dragons. Kitti Ping put in genetic guards against mutations, so that if there was any significant change, it wouldn't be able to hatch. Ruth wasn't supposed to survive, he only did because of Jaxom. I'm unsure of how the size mutations of the 9th Pass got past these guards though...
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Old Mar 19 2008, 06:45 PM   #85
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It seems mostly for bearing weight in the air, while the wings are used for maneuverability.
Exactly.
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Old Mar 21 2008, 02:28 AM   #86
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Our difference in opinion is that you think there is some slight probability that it could be possible, while I do not. I don't think we can reconcile that

And of course TK is improbable. In our world. But on Pern, it's a solid fact, which is why I can more easily accept that it helps them fly. Try to tell me that a bumblebee flies on TK and I'll laugh in your face But since TK is an option on Pern, it seems far more likely than the alternative to me.

Their wings are by no means vestigial. As mentioned earlier, firelizards had them for a reason, but when they were genetically altered, they just served a lesser purpose as their TK was given a massive boost. Since it's primarily an unconscious ability, unless otherwise trained, I can't imagine that the use of it would give the finer subtleties of flight and more intricate, controlled maneuvers. It seems mostly for bearing weight in the air, while the wings are used for maneuverability.

As for evolution, it's impossible for dragons. Kitti Ping put in genetic guards against mutations, so that if there was any significant change, it wouldn't be able to hatch. Ruth wasn't supposed to survive, he only did because of Jaxom. I'm unsure of how the size mutations of the 9th Pass got past these guards though...
If we don't agree, so what? The place is called a "meeting of minds" not a "melding" of them. (That would be Star Trek--LOL!)

As for evolution and dragons, to quote JP: "Life finds a way." In DB, there is some horribly obtuse and vague discussion of the Eridani philosophy of tampering with things. From that discussion, it appears doubtful that the dragons were designed not to evolve. In fact, some deliberate evolution was programmed into them to get them up to size in the first place.

That dragons continued to increase in size could have been the result of a mutation that circumvented Kitti Ping's efforts. The discussion regarding the Eridani methods stressed very long term husbanding of changed organisms, probably because this sort of thing was known to be likely to happen.

Life is also pretty ruthless about eliminating useless features over time. Human body hair has been gradually vanishing. Whales' legs are all but gone. Ostrich wings are reduced to virtual stumps compared to what would be needed for flight. If TK were truly the motive force, and large wings truly a hazard in Threadfall, casualties and natural selection would start driving wing-size down, just by virtue of which dragons survive to mate, regardless of what dragons believe or don't believe about how they fly.

In DB, the retardation of mutation is explained more as a function of Pernese trinary genetic structure than a deliberate measure by Ping. And even if mutation was retarded, it was not stopped or prevented entirely. It just takes longer.
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Old Mar 21 2008, 02:30 AM   #87
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Exactly.
If able to maneuver by TK, all wings would be is excess drag impeding their abilities.
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Old Mar 21 2008, 05:02 PM   #88
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Yeah, your last post made that point pretty well.
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Old Mar 25 2008, 02:22 PM   #89
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As for evolution and dragons, to quote JP: "Life finds a way."
I knew that quote would get used

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In DB, there is some horribly obtuse and vague discussion of the Eridani philosophy of tampering with things. From that discussion, it appears doubtful that the dragons were designed not to evolve. In fact, some deliberate evolution was programmed into them to get them up to size in the first place.

...

In DB, the retardation of mutation is explained more as a function of Pernese trinary genetic structure than a deliberate measure by Ping. And even if mutation was retarded, it was not stopped or prevented entirely. It just takes longer.
*uncomfortable noise* I'm reluctant, at best, to consider anything that Todd has introduced as Canon. Especially when it directly contradicts canon

While I agree that creating a standstill organism is rather narrow-minded, and would likely be outright prohibited in any normal circumstance, these people were on the brink of elimination. Desperate times call for desperate measures. She never thought that the dragon project would succeed so well, and likely never thought that they would last centuries, let alone millenia. She just wanted to ensure that as many dragons would stay "pure" as possible, since they couldn't afford to deal with inviable dragons if one happened to have something wrong with it - especially if it died and took a partner with it! So for a short term viewpoint, it was an effective mechanism. But for extremely long-term consequences, then it becomes problematic.
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Old Mar 25 2008, 11:57 PM   #90
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I knew that quote would get used


*uncomfortable noise* I'm reluctant, at best, to consider anything that Todd has introduced as Canon. Especially when it directly contradicts canon

While I agree that creating a standstill organism is rather narrow-minded, and would likely be outright prohibited in any normal circumstance, these people were on the brink of elimination. Desperate times call for desperate measures. She never thought that the dragon project would succeed so well, and likely never thought that they would last centuries, let alone millenia. She just wanted to ensure that as many dragons would stay "pure" as possible, since they couldn't afford to deal with inviable dragons if one happened to have something wrong with it - especially if it died and took a partner with it! So for a short term viewpoint, it was an effective mechanism. But for extremely long-term consequences, then it becomes problematic.
Well, it's a good quote and rather eloquently makes a point that is very true. Life's pretty stubborn and quite adaptive.

As for Todd McCaffrey's canon status, sorry, Anne McCaffrey has declared it so. You're stuck with it, love it or hate it. There are some things I'm less than fond of and some I like...but I can say the same of the originating author too. The same goes for contradictions.
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Old Mar 26 2008, 02:07 PM   #91
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I've said so in other areas, but even though I know it's technically canon, I refuse to accept his books as anything more than Fanfiction. Yes, Anne has her own flaws, but Todd's just go off the deep end. Until he shapes up a great deal, I'll never take anything seriously from his books
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Old Mar 26 2008, 04:35 PM   #92
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I agree with that. A few things I like, a few things I can tolerate adding to canon, but a lot of things are just too much.
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Old Mar 26 2008, 08:57 PM   #93
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Okay, Spiff, Brenda, what specifically violates your sense of canon with respect to Todd McCaffrey's work? I'm aware of one continuity error that may not be an error but a tease that I didn't like. What is it that has the two of you up in arms?
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Old Mar 27 2008, 02:32 PM   #94
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Good point, and another piece of evidence to weigh against the meters scale. They never attack singularly though, always in a pack. Regardless, I don't hear of even a full pride of lions attacking a full-grown elephant, and even the small dragons much be close to the size of them.
accually there a pride of lions that specialize in taking down elephants.

a video
youtube.com/watch?v=NuX6O7QYDzk&feature=related

and an add riden article the metion which park its happening in
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Interspec...tiger-lion.htm



there i regested JUST to share that. go trival informantion storage section of the brain.

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Old Mar 27 2008, 08:54 PM   #95
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accually there a pride of lions that specialize in taking down elephants.

a video
youtube.com/watch?v=NuX6O7QYDzk&feature=related

and an add riden article the metion which park its happening in
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Interspec...tiger-lion.htm



there i regested JUST to share that. go trival informantion storage section of the brain.
Thank you, Cliffy.
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Old Mar 4 2011, 03:10 AM   #96
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We read in Skies of Pern, how the PrinterHall is set up, that its an has walls that the out building, meet the local weaver, who could have lost all his winters work. A former trader use to store stuff.

Also we see the problem with wind in Dolphins of Pern, For the wind driven water, that blasted the land of Pern, When it hit land, it clear patches of land showing what the Southern Weyr riders saw and repoted, It took off slated off buildings, Paradise River Flooded, and Cove Hold, got flooded, badly.

The wind of the storm, were even bumpy after that too.

--

We also see how the new building from Dragonseye/Red Star Rising, are being hold up with high peack roofs of stone, And Telgar Foundary made the holding beams that could take the weight of the roofs.

--

There is something, about in CoP Second Weyr, that the extra warm water, was send via a filter, to be cleaned, re heated, and re run via piping, books isn't to hand, but it also help run a weight fill thing to run a system too.

--

Drinking water came from other place outside of the Weyr.
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Old Mar 4 2011, 01:41 PM   #97
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There are well maintained footpaths apparently for the runners. . . . They would also have to maintain roads etc for the traders like the Lilcamp family, however I do recall that it was brought up at times that there were lots of bumps in some roads and would/could take off a wagon wheel at times.
They might not be roads as we think of them --- more like well-beaten trails across the plains, or through mountain passes there would need to be some excavation and infilling done, so that the way was fairly level and wide enough for single-file caravans. Maybe tunnels in avalanche-prone areas. The traders would do small maintence on bad areas they came across in their travels, but I think there would also be teams of convicts brought in for major work. And the lord holders would keep the 'roads' within their holds in good shape.

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6) Threadfall charts. These would not be useful only to dragonriders. The explanation for how ships at sea deal with Thread didn't sit well with me from a naval architecture point of view. <snip> Moreover, the idea of battening down the ship, and steering straight from leading to trailing edge is nuts. Why not set a course to the edge of the Fall and get out from under the bloody thing as soon as possible? After all, you don't ride into a hurricane if you have a chance to avoid it.

Of course, this would require charts, and mariners live and die by charts. So I find it inconceivable that mariners would not carry and preserve Threadfall charts in order to evade even being under a fall in the first place. And frankly, this would also be a bread-and-butter tool for herders and drovers in an environment like Pern's. So how could all of this knowledge and all of these charts be lost by 9th Pass and force F'lar to reconstruct them. Too many users, too much need, too many archives, it seems for it to pass completely out of knowledge.

>>>>
Every single one of them would have similiar charts but Robinton's bone of contention was that they wouldn't share information between crafts and weyrs, thereby losing the information more quickly. That's how F'lar ended up doing the lot because he had to rely on himself to keep the weyr and Pern alive long enough for Lessa to bring the oldtimers back, in order for Pern to survive. That's my piece said for the moment.
Don't forget that Long Interval between the Eighth and Ninth Passes. After the Eighth Pass, the Threadfall charts would be set aside for 200 turns, then brought out in preparation for a Pass that didn't happen. Would all the crafts and holds have bothered to keep them around for another 200 turns, when most of them thought Thread was gone for good? And even if Thread did come back, the charts would be all faded and tattered after 50 turns of use and 200/400 turns in storage, so they'd probably want new ones.
---
Actually, I just checked the last-but-one chapter of Dragonflight, and T'ron says they didn't have the charts in his day --- "They [Falls] were coming so regularly even when I was a weyrling, you kind of knew when one was due." Maybe they only had lists (not charts) of the local falls, with projections for the month ahead. Or maybe some Weyrs made charts but the occasional irregular Fall made the Fortians distrust them.

Just before Ramoth clutches, F'lar shows Lessa a couple of charts showing Threadfall, but given her scornful comments about the Record skins brought in from the empty Weyrs, the charts may be his own work.
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Old Oct 12 2014, 08:43 PM   #98
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1) The Mining Craft might possibly be the largest and most important of the crafts with the possible exception of farming and fishing due to their functions in providing food. Holds and Weyrs must be carved out, and maintained. Coal must be mined for heating. Ore must be mined to supply the Smithing Craft. And firestone must be mined for the Pass years, to the tune of about 1.3 million tons per Weyr per Pass.

That's a lot of people swinging a pick-axe on Pern.
Wow... O_o

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3) Transportation. Either dragons are doing a lot of cargo duty, or the road system has got to be better developed than shown in the Atlas of Pern. There are an awful lot of livestock and mining products that need to be moved continuously just to support the Weyrs. There may also have to be a lot more boats/ships at sea and on rivers than we commonly think about.
That's something I've been wondering about too.

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4) Masonry and slate. Holds are generally cut into rock, but why not build with it more extensively. Certainly we have attached cot-holds, but why don't we have more masonry structures with slate roofs? I could easily see Pernese being passed masters in stone construction with and without mortar. It makes me wonder why masons aren't their own craft, and why there aren't more quarrying operations.
It says in the Dragon Lover's Guide that masons are trained by and are part of the Mining craft. The problem is that this tidbit is under the entry for Smith craft.

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5) Scurvy. With citrus cultivation limited by climate and Thread, I wonder how the Pernese population copes with the scourge of scurvy.
Scurvy is caused by a lack of vitamin C, right? Citrus aren't the only things that have it, they're just the most well known source. Wikipedia has some lists of other plants and cuts of meat you can get vitamin C from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C
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Old Oct 26 2014, 06:05 PM   #99
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In Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern, their are charts to help them with the 'timed' trips to Ista, and Nerat of the Fall opening of the glng tree flowers.
I'm trying to gather up my thoughts here.
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Old Nov 27 2014, 04:48 PM   #100
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They had grapes, red berries, and fruit juices why would they get scurvy
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