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Old Mar 10 2005, 08:57 PM   #1
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Question Food of Pern

You know that in every book they talk about different types of food. IE Meatrolls, Spiced Wheery, Spiced Herdbeasts etc. Has there ever been a book of receipes published on this subject? Does anyone have any they would like to share?
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Old Mar 10 2005, 09:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: Food of Pern

There are some recipes in the DLG (Dragonlover's Guide.) "Hearty Herdbeast Stew" is just a beef stew, "Benden Baklava" is just baklava made with sugar syrup instead of honey (which the Pernese don't have), bubbly pies/tarts are just berry pies. Meatrolls aren't included, but Anne has said they're sausage rolls. Finally having encountered sausage rolls myself, I find this even harder to credit--puff paste is a PITA to make if you have to do it from scratch (well, not really, but for average cooks it is, and no matter what it's tedious) and it requires massive amounts of butter. Also, fresh and hot, they make a huge mess in eating. Cold they're fairly unpleasant, and without refrigeration they wouldn't hold for long at all.
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Old Mar 11 2005, 04:48 AM   #3
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Default Re: Food of Pern

not so bad if you make them with shortcrust pastry and nicish sausagemeat.
I made some around Christmas-its sort of traditional in my house (though I never got to eat any -my brothers and cousins did)
they are alot quicker than alot of other tuff-and nice cold-unlike bready brought ones or puff pastry.
as far as I remember shortcrut contains less butter and 1/2 lard can be used.
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Old Mar 11 2005, 06:19 AM   #4
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Default Re: Food of Pern

On the old board we (read ex-KT host and MoM staf member Pam) started to form ideas for a Crystal Singer Cookbook.

At the time we weren't allowed to "touch on Pern" because of the difficult copyright issues. But... with the new rules that won't be a problem so... I might be interested in compiling a Pernese cookbook. One thing with that is that it should have both US and European measurement in it!

Anareth? Care to work together on a project like this? We could even give it it's own special forum!
The idea Pam and I had was that people were to send in recipes which should then be tried, judged and rated by members making and tasting them, to be sure they are good
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Old Mar 11 2005, 11:36 AM   #5
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Default Re: Food of Pern

Sounds fun!
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Old Mar 11 2005, 01:37 PM   #6
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Default Re: Food of Pern

There are recipes on one of the other boards relating to Anne's books including a couple for Klah. There is even a Forum for the cooks amongst us!
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Old Mar 11 2005, 01:46 PM   #7
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Default Re: Food of Pern

The recipes in DLG sound pretty good but I haven't ever tried them. I think I'm going to do that in the near future.
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Old Mar 11 2005, 07:53 PM   #8
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Default Re: Food of Pern

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kater
The recipes in DLG sound pretty good but I haven't ever tried them. I think I'm going to do that in the near future.
#
the klah one needs more cinnamon and nutmeg.
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Old Mar 11 2005, 09:26 PM   #9
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Default Re: Food of Pern

Sure, Hans. Though we'd have to give some thought to the recipes--we might need two versions, a Pernese one and a version folks can make at home (since they'd have access to different materials and cooking methods.)

Question: if you make it with short crust, is it really still a meat roll? (I really cannot imagine, if they turn out meat rolls in the quanitities the books imply, that they use puff paste. That's a lot of work for a poor cook somewhere, to fold and roll that puff paste!)
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Old Mar 12 2005, 01:12 AM   #10
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Default Re: Food of Pern

Maybe they use fire lizards to puff up the pastry with their gaseous eruptions from the nether end.
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Old Mar 12 2005, 04:44 AM   #11
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Default Re: Food of Pern

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anareth
Sure, Hans. Though we'd have to give some thought to the recipes--we might need two versions, a Pernese one and a version folks can make at home (since they'd have access to different materials and cooking methods.)

Question: if you make it with short crust, is it really still a meat roll? (I really cannot imagine, if they turn out meat rolls in the quanitities the books imply, that they use puff paste. That's a lot of work for a poor cook somewhere, to fold and roll that puff paste!)
I dunno-We've alway made sausage rolls like that! I'll ask Mum- not now she won't thank me, the only reaon I'm up is the postman!
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Old Mar 12 2005, 05:03 AM   #12
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Default Re: Food of Pern

Anareth, I always imagined the meatrolls a cross breed of English and Dutch rolls.


In The Netherlands we have something called a "worstebroodje"; worst meaning sausage and broodje meaning small bread/bun/roll. It can be filled with actual sausage but also with meatloaf or any other kind of meat.

here's a picture: http://www.broekmans.nl/images/6952.jpg

Then the English and the Irish (these last variations might be important, maybe Anne was thinking of those) are even more versatile.

Have a look at these: http://www.burgess-food-machinery.co...ges/srolls.jpg
also, how about this Suth African variant? http://www.karoovenison.co.za/images...icnic_main.jpg
something like this breakfast roll could be an example too: http://www.mmmeatshops.com/en/produc...ID=53&catID=99 It's the tortilla shell kind variety

it might also be of importance that Anne likes to put Asian things and references in her stories (because she had an Asian sister in law), so maybe we should also consider the kind of rolls with meat as well as vegetables and combinations of those that are common in that part of the world which have another kind of dough around them and which are virtually always deepfried.

Lots of things to think about and this is only meatrolls
I fully agree with you that the crust on the Pernese meatroll should not be too fluffy or near the result you get with filo.

As for Pernese/real recipes. I was thinking of doing it the way it's usually done; come as close to the Pernese recipes with Terran equivalents.
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Old Mar 12 2005, 09:22 AM   #13
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Default Re: Food of Pern

What about fish rolls too?
fish is a bit dryer than meat when cooked and les fatty so traditional sausage rolls wouldn't work.
I had an idea earlier- what about a sort of russian fish pie (I think thats what its called-it the one with flaky pastry) filling in a sort of shortcrust pastry roll-more like a turnovery thing (not a good description but i know if I descibed it as some of the english things they're different in the USA)
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Old Mar 12 2005, 04:22 PM   #14
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Default Re: Food of Pern

There isn't a single culture on the face of the earth that doesn't have some variant on protein-stuffed-in-carbohydrate. (The Russian dish may be pirozhki stuffed with fish--Slavic cultures have a lot of filled dumplings, but the filling doesn't have to be any particular thing to be that one name. Piorzhki can have savory meat fillings, savory potato or cheese, or sweet fruit or cheese, just to name a few.) But when questioned Anne said 'sausage rolls' as the frame of reference, which makes me think, whatever Anne says, a variation of Edith's type with a short-crust (savory) would make a little more sense. (It's still not something you would want to carry around for more than a few hours, tops, especially if it were made from sausage meat--by definition, sausage is at least 20% fat, and the best are 30-50%.)

Reference note: filo and puff pastry aren't the same thing. They're made differently and behave differently in baking. If you made sausage rolls with filo, at best you'd get something like a fried spring roll (very messy), at worst it would shatter into a million pieces. Puff paste raises higher but it soaks up moisture from the filling more easily.

Speaking of fat, one wonders if they have confit on Pern--fat CAN be used to preserve things. The most common use for it is duck leg, using the duck's own fat. Personally, not a big fan, but it's considered 'gourmet.' I don't see why you couldn't use cow or particularly pork fat (esp. since I'd assume the Pernese took pigs that weren't, like modern commercial pork, bred until they're absurdly lean.)

Do we know what grains they brought specifically, and what milling capabilities they have? Stone-grinding would be big, obviously, and we see Debera using a stone mill in DE/RSR. But grain species would make a difference in the pastries and baked goods. (Without commercial milling, for a start, no super-fluffy fine crumb bread, and cakes would be heavier than what we're used to.) IIRC they have sugar cane--what about beets? (Better suited to a cool climate.) And how about sorghum?
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Old Mar 12 2005, 04:28 PM   #15
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Default Re: Food of Pern

there are some references in dragon's dawn-I'll have a look now if you want to some sort of grain.

As to pigs and things I guess they'd have done what medieval/renaissance colonists on Earth did, pick hardy breeds-sheep tend to be a problem unless you get the right sort, and the usual ort of grains and foods from similar climates else where, for examples banana and sugar cane.

Perhaps there was some ue about being stuck in the arts section of the Hugh Owen library for 3 hrs after all. (I need a lightly fed up, totally exhausted and slightly wry smily)
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Old Mar 12 2005, 04:50 PM   #16
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Default Re: Food of Pern

Here we go-I've found an-almost list
no mention of pigs so far but I assume they must've they're quite versitile.
pg 130 UK corgi ed.

there' mentions of
wheat, barley, rice
tubers,
squashes (but probs)
cucumber family (but all but 2 types of gourd got a Pernian fungus-worm)
orchard stuff
chickens, but not turkeys (they didn't hatch), geese, ducks
no cinnamon and nutmeg-didn't work

there might be a reference to corn somewhere-I think its mentioned in one of the threadfalls
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Old Mar 13 2005, 06:47 AM   #17
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Default Re: Food of Pern

Haven't been able to find a reference to (nor the word) corn in any of the Pern books.

Possible interesting references:

Dragonflight
- Our supplies of grain and flour in the Dry Caves are very low, for Benden, Bitra, and Lemos are not grain producers.
- We always pick there [Igen Plain, Hans]. And we beat out the water grains [rice? Hans] from the low swamplands.
- Grains, too, and some of the southern root vegetables would be very welcome, Manora replied formally.
- And I’ve never seen the Telgar grain so full and heavy. Never.
- “I don’t know why you insisted that F’nor unearth these ridiculous things from Ista Weyr,” Lessa exclaimed in a tone of exasperation. “They consist of nothing but trivial notes on how many measures of grain were used to bake daily bread.”
- There must be water, for Threads can’ devour that. We fly in whatever else is needed, fodder for the herdbeasts, grain…” [about the Southern Continent]
- [although further is said:] They’ll have multiplied, and there’ll be all that fruit and grain.

Reegades
- "For we've naught to eat but boiled grains.''
- "Just look at this," Felleck said, lifting handfuls of the golden grain that they had come for. It was of good quality, Thella thought, noticing that no dust drifted away.

Dolphins
- [about Jayge's Paradise River Hold:] and grow the grain crops in the higher lands that did not grow along the coast.
- [about F'lessan's Weyrhold] The Weyrhold had a complement of holders, herding and experimenting with grain crops and vegetables in areas which had once, clearly, been fields, walled by stones set in place centuries before.

Masterharper of Pern
- A blight was discovered infecting grain fields and reducing the yield. Fax’s men were forced to attend to all these minor disasters

Dragonquest
- the result was a remission of the “gamy” taste that wherry often had. River grains had been steamed so that each individual morsel was separate and tender.
- We lose fields of grain and root every other day [says Larad, complainign about oldtimers]

The White Dragon
- Once again Ruth seized the initiative, gliding toward the field where young grain waved, brilliantly green in the noonday sun [Jaxom, on his way to the Lake/Corana]
- [in Southern] Ruth willingly helped harvest the tall waving grain grasses which Piemur pronounced fine fodder

Dragondrums
- The lands that supplied Igen Hold were around the next bend of the river, where the waters had been led inland by canals to supply watergrain fields. [rice]

Dragonsdawn
- gray cloud far off on the horizon suggested rain later on in the day, but that would be good for the crops already sprouting in the grain fields
- Wheat and barley were thriving; most of the tubers were doing well; and though several species of squash were having trouble, those crops were being sprayed with nutrients. Unfortunately, the roots of cucumbers and all but two of the gourds seemed to be susceptible to a Pernian fungus-worm, and unless the agronomists could combat it with a little cross-parasitism, they might lose the entire family Cucurbitacae. Technology was looking into the problem
- The orchard stock, bar a few samples of each variety, had bloomed and was leafing well. Transplants of two varieties of Pern fruit plants appeared to thrive near Earth types, and technology was hoping for some symbiosis. Two Pernian food plants showed evidence of being attacked by a human-brought virus, but it was too early to tell if it would prove symbiotic or harmful. Land suitable for rice cultivation fill had not been found, but the colony cartographer, busy translating probe pictures to survey maps, thought that the southern marshlands might work out.

So far for a search of Pern books; will look through the companion books later.
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Last edited by Hans; Mar 13 2005 at 07:20 AM.
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Old Mar 13 2005, 06:56 AM   #18
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a little after your ddawn ref theres a bit about finding somewhere to plant rice, and I've always assumed rice was rivergrains, its the only one I know of that needs such damp conditions!
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Old Mar 13 2005, 07:21 AM   #19
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Thanks Edith, I added the whole paragraph, it's well worth it.

I always assumed river grains was rice, the only thing I'm not sure of is, if it is the exact same as Terran rice, or an adapted/mutated/engineered form.
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Old Mar 13 2005, 07:00 PM   #20
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Default Re: Food of Pern

I think we can assume that river grains are rice, and I'll go further and say for the purposes of reproducing repices they mean true rice, like basmati or arborrio, rather than 'wild' rice like that grown in the US upper Midwest (which isn't actually rice but a cousin in the grass family.) Probably something like basmati, which will grow in a variety of warm climates. The reference to it not sticking definitely supports one of those rices over 'wild' rice, which doesn't cook the same way. With rice, that means they have a variety of porridges available, and things like risotto and pilaf. Plus there's rice flour.

Unfortunately 'grain' is kinda nonspecific. Could be oats, could be barley, could be rye, could be several different kinds (and probably is.) I'll bet they have at least a couple varieties of wheat with them, especially with the need for baking. Probably at least one kind of winter wheat. So if we're putting together recipes, we can be pretty sure they have access to something we'd recognize as flour. I'd guess a coarser grind, though, since they don't have commercial mills. We know they have porridge, but that doen't for sure mean oats (though I'll bet you Anne had Irish oatmeal in mind.) Millet would be a good choice, too, especially for warmer regions.
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Old Mar 14 2005, 04:29 AM   #21
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Default Re: Food of Pern

flourwise could it be something like spelt (sp) flour the Romans used?
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Old Mar 14 2005, 03:17 PM   #22
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Default Re: Food of Pern

I've often imagined Pern's Meatrolls as something akin to what we have, known as Kolaches, in Texas. I don't know if the breaded outside would be an issue to make or not, might in fact be more simple to make than i realize, (might not be too).

But here's a link to the kind i mean:
http://www.kolachefactory.com/

the varieties of fillings are pretty broad:
http://www.kolachefactory.com/menus/index.asp

and here is what most comes to mind when i think of a Pernese Meatroll Now, i'm hungry!! :p
http://www.kolachefactory.com/images...ache_small.jpg
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Old Mar 14 2005, 03:35 PM   #23
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Default Re: Food of Pern

I've always pictured a meatroll to be something along the lines of a Chinese eggroll using meat only instead of the veggies.
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Old Mar 14 2005, 08:07 PM   #24
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Default Re: Food of Pern

i have always thought of meatrolls as some kind of battered sausage link... perhaps deep-fried or maybe boiled (like bagels)... and i think that using cinnamon in klah sounds perfectly reasonable since klah is made of ground bark and hot water...also, the sweetener that Flar loves so much, what do we think that is? theres no mention of sugarcane in the books, and there isnt any honey...although "sweetener" doesnt specify solid or liquid.
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Old Mar 15 2005, 01:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans
Haven't been able to find a reference to (nor the word) corn in any of the Pern books.

.
Hans, i have found corn! in the dolphins of pern, on page 218, i quote "then he got grain for the poultry and took care of them, and delky, who patiently waited out the back door for her morning handful of corn"
so we know they have corn, but that doesnt mean it's for human consumption...we have human corn and cattle corn here in new england, and cattle corn is definetly not for people to eat. so it may or may not be relevant.
also, about flour, theres a small kind of earthy crunchy bakery where i live here and they sell acorn scones which are made with, you guessed it, acorn flour. i think that the dry goods portion of the experience may be broader than we thought
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Old Mar 15 2005, 03:51 PM   #26
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You're absolutely right D'ana! I found it now to. Thanks!
We don't know for sure if there is enough to be a serious part of what the humans consume but at least you found it mentioned.
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Old Mar 15 2005, 04:25 PM   #27
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In The Girl Who could Hear Dragons, it is stated that they made flour from Nuts 'Mina and Pell located near the cave. Although it was very coarse as they did not have the proper tools to grind it proper. So the Acorn Flour would be a close match. One could say
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Old Mar 15 2005, 11:34 PM   #28
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i had an acorn scone today...they taste like the woods with brown sugar
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Old Mar 16 2005, 10:16 PM   #29
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Default Re: Food of Pern

When asked, Anne explained meat rolls as being sausage rolls. Thanks to having a British chef-instructor for butchery, I finally got to see these in person--they're usually made with puff paste, and are, well, sausage rolled in puff paste. They're open at the ends, but because the sausage isn't broken up (it's not in casing, but it's pressed into shape before you roll) it doesn't fall out, especially if the roll's cold (which is okay, if the sausage isn't TOO greasy and if it's got a stronger spicing--bland sausage becomes very tasteless when cold.)

Kolaches look like they'd be a problem because that looks like yeast dough. While the Pernese seem to have yeast, for something they apparently make in mass quantities, a yeast dough is a pain because that's extra work. When you're cooking in institutional quantities (like a Weyr or a main Hold kitchen) you want to simplify. The same goes for boiled dumplings (which don't hold or carry well) deep-fried (requires a large amount of temp-controlled fat that you also have to keep a carefully eye on because it can cause SERIOUS injuries, and it also creates a very brittle product) or potstickers. Something baked makes the most sense to me, and a shortcrust variation would seem to be doubly practical--something like a somewhat flaky pie crust, if they were making in quantity, would make sense, as it could double not just with the meat rolls but for larger pies and as the basis for bubbly pies (if there's a lot of sugar in the filling, no one would notice a neuteral pie crust.) Short crust would also save on butter and labor time, as puff paste is expensive and labor-intensive.

On corn--the whole feed-versus-sweet in a fairly recent development, so I would assume if the colonists brought corn they'd bring a flexible variety. Probably not as sweet as what we'd consider eating corn, but suitable for grinding into flour. But point--Anne's American, but she's been living and writing in Ireland. In Europe, the word "corn" has historically been used as a synonym for "grain", frequently meaning wheat. Another down side to corn that might have lead to the first Pernese deemphasizing it--if it becomes too much a staple of the diet, beans and squash or other plants with similar nutritious values have to be introduced or you can develop pellagra (IIRC it's a vitamin B deficiency.)

Pretty much any nut can be made into flour. Hazlenuts and almonts are really good for it, some varities (like walnuts) are a bit too oily to work really well. A lot of torte recipes have nut flour in them, and it makes a...grainier crumb. (It's easier to taste than explain.)
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Old Mar 17 2005, 09:46 AM   #30
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This link should help somewhat:

http://www.angelfire.com/dragon2/per...l/ref/book.htm
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Old Mar 17 2005, 12:54 PM   #31
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Default Re: Food of Pern

i think we should start a recipe book. there are so many ways to prepare foods that it would be interesting to see who comes up with what. (i.e. the klah recipes more like hot chocolate and the ones based on coffee)
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Old Mar 17 2005, 03:57 PM   #32
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D'ana, I totally agree with you. I am sure everyone here has his or her special way of fixing each and every food mentioned in the entire series. I did a meat roll the other day with ham slices and bisquik. Came out ok I think next time I am going to use thin slices of a good roast beef and a different type of bread. Maybe one that does not rise as much.

Good Eating all
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Old Jun 27 2007, 07:46 AM   #33
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Specifically Meatrolls as they are mentioned so much...


They eat them at least a couple of times during a normal day, and when they are traveling they grab one out of their bag and munch on it when they are doing other things...

So... Cant be flakey like pie dough... They don't fall apart or make a huge mess so fairly dry, with no liquid fat or sauce running out...

They taste good when cold and are filling and good when hot out of the oven...

So, in hold, craft or weyr we have the big community kitchen with assumably a meat grinder of some kind (as Anne is reported to have said, "a sausage roll"). We grind up raw herd beast, and wherry, maybe not together, but basically we have ground raw meat. (earth = Pork, Beef, or Turkey, Mutton, ?fish?).

We make a salted and spiced meatloaf mixture with eggs to hold it together, maybe some milled grains (earth = oatmeal) including some (earth = cinnamon, cloves, nutmeg ) Klah seasoning, well Klah is a tree bark as is cinnamon but maybe a different tree? anyways, make a meatloaf mix.

I like to add some dried cranberries or cherries to my meatloaf. (try it youll like it) don't know if they have that on pern in any way though...


So that's the meat part.

The dough is easy to figure out...
Here at our house instead of kitchen(bakery) drudges we have a bread machine!

A good bakery drudge can turn out a huge amount of hand kneaded yeast dough in a days time... they develope huge (and some say sexy) forearms and upper bodies. so dont piss these women off! .

In our bread machine we start with a cup of warm water.
Add 1Tbsp Sugar (sweetner on pern)
Add 1 tsp of salt. (from tillik hold?)
Add 1 pkt yeast (the sourdough starter that every good baker keeps)
Add 3 cups of Bread Flour (dont know which grain is used on pern but you can bet they have something like that).

We don't add any oil or eggs to this as there will be fat to be soaked up from the meat and there are already eggs in the loaf mix.

I also like to add a little more salt then is in the recipe for my taste, makes the bread better.

Use the dough setting and let it rip...

About an hour and a half later... the dough is ready... (thank you drudges!).

With your (Clean!) hands grab about 1/3 of the dough from the bread machine and round it like you would a pizza dough patty.

Use your wooden dowel (1" dowel about 15" long... standard kitchen implement!) to roll the dough out into an oval about 18" long by 6" wide... dont be afraid to roll it too thin... use plenty of flour to keep it from sticking to the counter and the dowel.

Scoop the meat out with your hands and roll it as you put it into the middle of your dough in a line.

Roll the meat up in the dough like you would a blanket. overlapping is ok, just roll it up.

put the entire roll onto a sheet pan, seam down.

Keep going until you have used up your dough. If you have meat left over you can just make meatballs and put them on a sheet pan to bake at the same time. Do they have pasta and tomato sauce on pern?

Take your sharp kitchen knife and make a series of cuts along the top of the meat roll to allow steam and grease to escape.

Put the sheet pans into your (preheated!) 350 degree oven until they are dark golden brown. (about 20 minutes?).

Once they are out of the oven and have cooled a bit you can cut them into 4 to 6 inch lengths and send them out with the workers wrapped in butcher paper. (earth = ziplock bags) .... hmmm... Pern does not have that, at least until avies fixed the paper industry... I guess it would just go in your lunch bag...


If you do this the night before packing lunches is easy the next day when they are cold.

Seriously, once you get this down pat with your bread machine (or kitchen drudge) making the dough, you can turn out enough of these babys in a couple hours to feed the entire hold for a couple of days... except they will go fast once they find out how good they are... keep them in the freezer instead of burritos for the teenagers...


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Old Jun 27 2007, 11:26 AM   #34
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- "Just look at this," Felleck said, lifting handfuls of the golden grain that they had come for. It was of good quality, Thella thought, noticing that no dust drifted away.
Iam probably being stupid - more than one grain is golden isn't it?
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Old Jun 27 2007, 01:40 PM   #35
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Maybe they use fire lizards to puff up the pastry with their gaseous eruptions from the nether end.
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Old Jun 27 2007, 02:18 PM   #36
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well it would certainly prove that firelizards are helpful!!
tho' i don't think that i would like to taste a meatroll after their puffing
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Old Jun 27 2007, 05:36 PM   #37
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chrisfrostic, if I had a bread machine I'd like to try that. Sounds tasty.

Personally, I always thought of meatrolls as being made up of "trimmings" of various types of meats (as is a lot of sausage) spiced up and baked in pastry, sort of like a pasty, with or without diced veggies thrown in.
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Old Jun 27 2007, 06:04 PM   #38
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chrisfrostic, if I had a bread machine I'd like to try that. Sounds tasty.

Personally, I always thought of meatrolls as being made up of "trimmings" of various types of meats (as is a lot of sausage) spiced up and baked in pastry, sort of like a pasty, with or without diced veggies thrown in.
Well you don't need a bread machine, just get one of your kitchen drudges to knead the dough for you...
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Old Jun 27 2007, 07:39 PM   #39
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Personally, I always thought of meatrolls as being made up of "trimmings" of various types of meats (as is a lot of sausage) spiced up and baked in pastry, sort of like a pasty, with or without diced veggies thrown in.
some sort of pasty type thing?...
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Old Jun 27 2007, 11:48 PM   #40
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They're usually called Cornish Pasties but there are as many variations as people who make them. Basically they are a mixture of diced (or ground) meat and potatoes in a folded pastry crust sort of like a turnover. Some people put things like onion, peas, carrots and even diced turnips in them. It's a matter of personal taste. They can be as big as a plate or small enough to fit in the palm of your hand. A good sturdy pastry would allow them to be wrapped in a cloth and carried in a pouch or box at least for a few hours in most conditions.

There's also yakimando (sp) which is sort of a Korean version of eggroll. Come to think of it, a Chinese style eggroll stuffed with sausage would also fit the bill.
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