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Beyond Anne McCaffrey We know Anne's not the only author you read and enjoy. Come here to discuss and discover authors beyond Anne!

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Old Sep 26 2008, 01:36 AM   #41
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They say if George could work his will, he'd buy every copy of the Holiday Special out there and burn it. (He'd have to offer an awful lot to get mine, though!)

I'm just not excited because I'm so over the Clone Wars and the prequel era. I don't really care about that any more after RotS.
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Old Oct 5 2008, 12:21 AM   #42
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That part of the Code to not marry, have kids or attachments was developed a 1,000 years ago. at the time it was needed for a SHORT time, but not ever to have been a permanent tradition. The jedi were desctroyed because they lost their vision, the ability to grow and change with the times, to adapt. They also lost their connection with the humbleness of regular people and to serve them.

It's good Luke had circumvented that part, many Old Republic Jedi did have children and wives. Neeja Halcyon of the Correlian Order of jedi had a wife and kids. He turne dout to be Corran's father.


the X-wing saga, just about ALL of it was written before Lucas reversed the Jedi marrying procreating etc... was added to the Jedi Code. honestly the Jedi were destroyed because it was in the script. the Jedi Lucas put together for the prequels were in DIRE need of being exterminated.

Actually there was a cross time connection made, the bird jedi during the New Jedi order or something like that, the one who ended up tagging with Jacen Solo. freaked out that Luke had married and had a kid.....
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Old Oct 5 2008, 02:49 PM   #43
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Vegere. she did. She was stuck out in the wild space regions for a while, rna into the Yhuuzhen VOng stayed with them for 60 years,. She became possibly a bit twisted over time.
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Old Oct 18 2008, 02:03 AM   #44
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or the Author(s) of those particular episodes felt the "Old" Jedi Order were a bit twisted.

Think the whole twisting came from the Jedi working to protect order instead of life, when their senses, skills, and abilities stem from Life. At least in the prequels.
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Old Oct 19 2008, 04:40 PM   #45
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The Old Jedi order depended more on traditions without truly knowing the "why" behind them. They forgot they serve the common person. They became twisted with power just as the Sith only it's a bit more subtle and unfortuatly many didn't realise they DID crave power.
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Old Oct 20 2008, 11:45 AM   #46
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The Old Jedi order depended more on traditions without truly knowing the "why" behind them. They forgot they serve the common person. They became twisted with power just as the Sith only it's a bit more subtle and unfortuatly many didn't realise they DID crave power.
It's a rather common theme, actually: What happens to good people when intolerance enters into the equation? Can 'good but intolerant' still be called 'good'?
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Old Oct 20 2008, 02:21 PM   #47
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I don't think it's considered good either.

Some of the traditions needed changing, such as the baby snatching, no attachments and overly centralizing the Order.

Get babies that are orphaned without a family. If there's a force sensitive child, ask the parents about training the lil' one while with the family.

The no attachment keeps the person from really helping others. They become numb to the hurts and could have difficulty empathizing.

The New Jedi Order has advantages the Old one didn't, and has it's own hang ups as well.
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Old Oct 20 2008, 04:13 PM   #48
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I don't think it's considered good either.

Some of the traditions needed changing, such as the baby snatching, no attachments and overly centralizing the Order.

Get babies that are orphaned without a family. If there's a force sensitive child, ask the parents about training the lil' one while with the family.
Definitely agreed. Abduction is almost always (if not always) not the way to go, although certain rare cases might be exceptions.


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The no attachment keeps the person from really helping others. They become numb to the hurts and could have difficulty empathizing.
Agreed here, based on personal experience.


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The New Jedi Order has advantages the Old one didn't, and has it's own hang ups as well.
Doesn't any system?

Just curious (dammit. boundless curiosity is a curse! A useful one, sure -- but a curse is a curse): what do you think the "major" hangups of the NJO are/were?
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Old Oct 20 2008, 05:40 PM   #49
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I'm a big fan of the older Star Wars movies, and I kinda like some the newer ones. I've read some of the books that go with the movies, and I've read some of the books that take place before and after the movies. I'd have to say that my favorite character is Chewbacca, or else Qui-Gon Ginn, or Hann Solo. Lol! Can't make up my mind!
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Old Oct 20 2008, 07:10 PM   #50
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Katanna, the charactors are so much fun. :-) I like most of them.

Draconichybrid, The biggest hang up with the NJO was making Knights or Masters of people who were too young, who hadn't gained the wisdom yet on dealing with the knowledge they possessed.. A knight Maybe I can understand if he or she had shown exceptional maturity and wisdom, but most definatly NOT a Master. It was done with the Old Order but usually with extreme care on a case by case basis. It was rare for a Knight be in his or her mid twenties, an example was Qui Gon Jinn. Even rarer for a Master to be in his or her mid-thirties. An example of a "young master" Was Mace Windu.


The young Master/Knight was my bigest problem with the NJO, but I also see why. They had little data on the Old Order's practices and even fewer Old Order Masters and Knights to teach them. A holocron is good but it's better to have a mentor to help explain things if questions arise. Many Old Republic Jedi that had survived might've been padawans who'd stopped using their force powers to stay hidden. Any Knights or Masters that'd survived would've kept their exsistance to a need to know basis if at all. The NJO only knew how to fight, it what was needed at the time to deal with the invading Yuuzhen Vong, later the needed to improve their diplomatic skills


All in all the NJO was starting from scratch and acting like the jedi order had in the days of Nomi Sunrider and Ulric Queldroma. (Multiple Padawans per master, Knights can marry, have kids ect.)From a writting stand point, it's interesting to see an organization evolve and the reactions of Old Rebuplic Jedi Knights and Masters. <snicker> How they'd freaked out upon finding out Luke was married with a couple of children.

What I liked about the NJO, was they didn't snatch babies, they taught students who knew full well what they were getting into and tried to help them meld their life experiences with the force training. Usally 14+ years old. Corran Horn being a MUCH older student, possibly in his 30s to 40s. They didn't turn folks away. Sometimes thye didn't know whom to turn away.
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Old Oct 21 2008, 12:51 PM   #51
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Draconichybrid, The biggest hang up with the NJO was making Knights or Masters of people who were too young, who hadn't gained the wisdom yet on dealing with the knowledge they possessed.. A knight Maybe I can understand if he or she had shown exceptional maturity and wisdom, but most definatly NOT a Master.
"Age is not an accomplishment, and youth is not a sin." -- Robert A. Heinlein


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It was done with the Old Order but usually with extreme care on a case by case basis. It was rare for a Knight be in his or her mid twenties, an example was Qui Gon Jinn. Even rarer for a Master to be in his or her mid-thirties. An example of a "young master" Was Mace Windu.
The Jedi Order was also static to the point of debilitating weakness.

As Chas Uliar pointed out in Outbound Flight, the Jedi Order was an atavism -- it could only exist by the force of it's own social inertia.


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The young Master/Knight was my biggest problem with the NJO, but I also see why. They had little data on the Old Order's practices and even fewer Old Order Masters and Knights to teach them.
Why would they need much information? You don't replace a failed system with a carbon copy of itself. The goal was never to restore the Jedi Order, but instead to learn from the mistakes of the past and build a New Jedi Order.


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A holocron is good but it's better to have a mentor to help explain things if questions arise. Many Old Republic Jedi that had survived might've been padawans who'd stopped using their force powers to stay hidden.
Why do you insist on thinking that more Old Republic Jedi Masters would have helped any? Oh, and you left out the Horn family's rather extensive contributions.


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The NJO only knew how to fight, it what was needed at the time to deal with the invading Yuuzhen Vong, later the needed to improve their diplomatic skills.
Little piece of ancient wisdom for you: "If you want peace, prepare for war." By the way, you're welcome. :P


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All in all the NJO was starting from scratch and acting like the jedi order had in the days of Nomi Sunrider and Ulric Queldroma. (Multiple Padawans per master, Knights can marry, have kids ect.)
Fill in the blank: "That's a bad thing because ________."


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From a writing stand point, it's interesting to see an organization evolve and the reactions of Old Republic Jedi Knights and Masters. <snicker> How they'd freaked out upon finding out Luke was married with a couple of children.

What I liked about the NJO, was they didn't snatch babies, they taught students who knew full well what they were getting into and tried to help them meld their life experiences with the force training. Usally 14+ years old. Corran Horn being a MUCH older student, possibly in his 30s to 40s. They didn't turn folks away.
Ah yes... I just love it when the opposition undermines it's own case for me -- saves me (some of) the effort of actually undermining it myself.

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Sometimes they didn't know whom to turn away.
I assume you're referring to Jacen Solo? As I understand it, he was tortured, broken and rebuilt by Vergere -- who had herself been tortured, broken and rebuilt to break others.

Blame rests squarely on the Yuuzhen Vong here -- a tool is not responsible for the atrocities of it's wielder.
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Old Nov 9 2008, 10:58 AM   #52
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I actually like the Clone Wars cartoon. Although they went ahead and made Obi Wan 1 dimensional again. NO personality.
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Old Nov 11 2008, 02:27 AM   #53
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personally I think I've had it with prequel level, and NJO stuff. will read my books within the original trilogy, and stop before Vector Prime. One point. the NJO level seemed to dismiss global evil if they exercised personal heroics to atone for it. (Carida anyone?) So with horn there. Also Luke tended towards not believing a Jedi had been truly tested until they had turned towards the dark side for a while then traipsed back. I can understand trials by fire, but sheesh. OJO vs. NJO masters were on the council, knights weren't. NJO masters ere decided by their skills in the force. somehow.... no real information about who decided when Luke became a Jedi Master.
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Old Nov 11 2008, 12:45 PM   #54
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Ghost 8772, I agree with you.
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Old Nov 15 2008, 11:50 PM   #55
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personally I think I've had it with prequel level, and NJO stuff. will read my books within the original trilogy, and stop before Vector Prime. One point. the NJO level seemed to dismiss global evil if they exercised personal heroics to atone for it. (Carida anyone?) So with horn there. Also Luke tended towards not believing a Jedi had been truly tested until they had turned towards the dark side for a while then traipsed back. I can understand trials by fire, but sheesh. OJO vs. NJO masters were on the council, knights weren't. NJO masters ere decided by their skills in the force. somehow.... no real information about who decided when Luke became a Jedi Master.

Well, in fairness, neither Luke in-canon nor the authors in the real world had any idea about the Jedi Council or knights, masters, and padawans when most of post-ROTJ stuff was written, largely because George hadn't made it up yet. (If anyone out there honestly believes that George Lucas has had everything worked out and thought out ahead, first, you've never met anyone who works with him, and second, please find Jedi Bendu's site and read the original scripts. Seriously. The very first story is "The Hidden Fortress" IN SPACE! with the names changed. Almost scene for scene.)

However, I agree that there was WAY too much "Aw, fallen to the Dark Side? Have a cookie." Kevin Anderson started that with Kyp and his freakin' Sun Crusher, but he was not alone as the comic "Dark Empire" featured Luke turning to the Dark Side and joining a resurrected Emperor. (And then the Emperor came back again. AND AGAIN. I MEAN REALLY, DARK HORSE?)

BTW, "NJO" or "New Jedi Order" refers ONLY to the series of books published by Del Rey and beginning with Vector Prime. It does not include anything published previously by Bantam, or anything after the end of the Vong stories, or any stand-alones published by Del Rey. The series which just ended was "Legacy of the Force" and there is a new series starting.
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Old Nov 22 2008, 01:13 AM   #56
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Well, in fairness, neither Luke in-canon nor the authors in the real world had any idea about the Jedi Council or knights, masters, and padawans when most of post-ROTJ stuff was written, largely because George hadn't made it up yet. (If anyone out there honestly believes that George Lucas has had everything worked out and thought out ahead, first, you've never met anyone who works with him, and second, please find Jedi Bendu's site and read the original scripts. Seriously. The very first story is "The Hidden Fortress" IN SPACE! with the names changed. Almost scene for scene.)

However, I agree that there was WAY too much "Aw, fallen to the Dark Side? Have a cookie." Kevin Anderson started that with Kyp and his freakin' Sun Crusher, but he was not alone as the comic "Dark Empire" featured Luke turning to the Dark Side and joining a resurrected Emperor. (And then the Emperor came back again. AND AGAIN. I MEAN REALLY, DARK HORSE?)

BTW, "NJO" or "New Jedi Order" refers ONLY to the series of books published by Del Rey and beginning with Vector Prime. It does not include anything published previously by Bantam, or anything after the end of the Vong stories, or any stand-alones published by Del Rey. The series which just ended was "Legacy of the Force" and there is a new series starting.
Anareth, I understand a lot of that. I should have stated my preference better.
The New Jedi order (basically where the Yuzzhon Vong came in) through the stories which began having to use Lucas rewrites of the Jedi tradition I will no longer read. Our chronological time not the long ago in a galaxy far far away time.
I understand that George did not have things figured out near as much as he would like us to believe, but it seems like he did read some parts or other of books that were written in the interrim, took things he liked (like Coruscant) and rejected others (clones were outlawed and destroyed because of the clone wars) even if the same author came up with both ideas. Just too many things which irritate me whenever he got involved in adding to his own story. I guess its a good thing he never decided that Jedi must not tell a lie. You can only stretch a certain point of view so far before it snaps.
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Old Dec 26 2008, 09:36 AM   #57
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Yes , indeed : H.S.F.!!!! Lucas fubared on that, as well as replacing the actor who portrayed Anikin in the celebration scene with whatever -his-name-was who played him in Episodes 2 and 3.

My wife is very knowledgeable about Star Wars and Star Trek both.However, her knowledge does not extend into the universe from the point of the Vong (New Jedi Order,I think?). She does not count that as TRUE Star Wars cannon. Hates all they did , including the whole Jedi-Purge-esque killing of so many characters, starting with Chewie. According to her, and with my own reading as well, Timothy Zahn writes the best novels, although if you like Fett, the Hard Merchandisenovel and it's two other related novels were pretty good, IMHO.

Oh, and much as she loves SW and ST, my wife doesn't care for Episodes 1-3. She looks at them as stand alone movies, not prequils, since much of the established Star Wars histories are contradicted in them. The whole clone wars thing was established to be the Republic AGAINST the Clone Masters, not using them. The Death Star plans were developed in the MAW instalation, not by the Geonosians. And other discrepancies. Lucas changed too much, as well as something about the prequils was missing compared to the Original trilogy.
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Old Dec 29 2008, 12:48 PM   #58
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My wife is very knowledgeable about Star Wars and Star Trek both.However, her knowledge does not extend into the universe from the point of the Vong (New Jedi Order,I think?). She does not count that as TRUE Star Wars cannon.
Did George Lucas (or whoever had the rights to the franchise, assuming it has even changed hands) consider the Vong war canon? IMNSHO, if he did then Vong stuff is canon; if he did not, then it's not.

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Hates all they did, including the whole Jedi-Purge-esque killing of so many characters, starting with Chewie.
So she hates a part of SW canon? I strongly dislike parts of Anne's various canons. Those parts are still canon if Anne says they are.

I strongly dislike her treatment of homosexuals, for instance.
So Kincaid (Talentverse T-2) hooking up with Laria when he's been previously described in the Rowan (pre-Jeff, the Rowan muses about potential mind-mates -- "check[ing] their pedigree" as Jeff teases her in Damia -- and thinks that "the only known male T-2 is a confirmed homosexual." It is strongly hinted later that this T-2 is Kincaid Dano), Lyon's Pride (Kincaid's arrival at Clarf Tower, Damia muses that Kincaid would be a good match for Laria if he wasn't gay), and TTATH (Damia again muses that he'd be a good match for Laria...).
That doesn't mean I don't consider those books canon; for all my dislike, I still enjoy reading most Talentverse books (I don't plan on rereading To Ride Pegasus in this lifetime. The book is still canon though.)

I strongly dislike her treatment of gender roles. To my knowledge, true equality only exists in the Freedom series -- and only because the colonists can't afford "traditional" gender roles. Of course, strong alpha types like Kris having useful skills and proving themselves anything but defenseless certainly helped.
Does this strong dislike for her treatment of gender roles mean I consider the offending books outside of canon? Nope. Does this strong dislike mean I can't read the offending books? Again, nope.


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According to her, and with my own reading as well, Timothy Zahn writes the best novels, although if you like Fett, the Hard Merchandise novel and it's two other related novels were pretty good, IMHO.
I second your opinion of Zahn, although Allston and Stockpole round out my personal Top Three list.


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The Death Star plans were developed in the MAW instalation, not by the Geonosians.
Given the level of secrecy involved with the MAW Imperial Weapons Research Think-Tank (which is what it was), couldn't the Geonosian connection (which I have never heard of before, btw) be explained away as a simple misdirection?

I mean, come on, Palpatine -- er, Darth Sidious --was rather fond of his misdirections.

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Old Dec 31 2008, 09:27 PM   #59
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Anything George writes is canon.

The books are secondary. So long as they do not contradict George, they are canon, if they do, it's time to break out the spackle. And believe me there are people who have totally solved the issue of the the Genosians, the Maw (it's not an acronym), and resolving things like the inconsistences between the Kyle Katarn stories and Crispin's Han Solo books about who really stole the Death Star plans. Some fans have too much time on their hands.

I don't actually mind their killing Chewie--the "big three" were due for a real shake-up. I will say that then having to kill off Anakin later didn't help at ALL. And it really was a dictate from Licensing that they didn't want potential confusion of Anakin Solo and Anakin Skywalker. Believe me, even the authors got tired of the death-march aspect of NJO, especially as it wasn't really their choices who died or how many. But then I loved Legacy of the Force (and am currently only-sort-of-kidding threatening one of the authors that he better marry off Jaina and Jag once and for all the next chance he gets--he knows I'm kidding. And he knows how to get me back, too, so we're even.) I'm looking forward to the post-LOTF books. So my taste level may be questionable.

Zahn is King. Allston and Stackpole are princes. As for the others...well, some I don't hate.
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Old Dec 31 2008, 09:45 PM   #60
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hehehe,.
mr. Zhahn is a very nice man. I've met him andMatthew Stoover. Mr. Stackpole's books are very fun to read.
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Old Jan 1 2009, 01:52 AM   #61
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hehehe,.
mr. Zhahn is a very nice man. I've met him andMatthew Stoover. Mr. Stackpole's books are very fun to read.
Definitely like Stackpole, Especially since he either played the Redemption Scenario or had it described to him and he put it in the X-wing book. Kinda cool to see something you ground your teeth over for months be described in every tooth grinding detail.
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Old Jan 1 2009, 02:09 PM   #62
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Yeah, I'd agree with the descriptions of Zahn, Allston, and Stackpole. Zahn's books are the best ones in my opinion. Allston has the best sense of humour. And I definitely preferred Stackpole's book I, Jedi to Anderson's Jedi Academy Trilogy. That said, I really like the Young Jedi Knights series that Anderson and Moesta did together, especially the Shadow Academy story arc (of course that may be biased as I don't have the last book in the Diversity Alliance arc, and don't have any of the Black Sun story arc). I think that Moesta has a good influence on Anderson's writing, making it a helluva lot better. However I still think that Zahn is the best author.
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Old Jan 2 2009, 12:03 AM   #63
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I've meet Matthew Stover. He's nice seems to love writting.
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Old Jan 6 2009, 05:29 PM   #64
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I know Tim and Mike, and Aaron's a particular friend. Believe me, any sense of humor in his books? He's toning it down. He is very droll. Also multitalented--last year he wrote and directed his own zombie film, "Deadbacks" ("It's like "Romeo and Juliet' meets 'Night of the Living Dead'".)

I've had occasion to meet but don't know well Bob Salvatore and Troy Denning as well, and I have to say they are VERY good sports--they attended a "seance" in which we attempted to summon the spirits of the characters they had to kill off in NJO. We raised Chewbacca, but got Anakin Skywalker instead of Anakin Solo. ("Who would confuse Anakin Skywalker and Anakin Solo? Besides Lucas Licensing, of course.") And in equal-time fairness, I have met Kevin Anderson and Ann Crispin as well. They were courteous. I still can't bring myself to like their books (though Crispin's Trek work is INFINITELY better than her Star Wars stuff.)
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Old Apr 3 2009, 10:33 PM   #65
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Exclamation ALERT for Fans of SW author Aaron Allston

http://www.suvudu.com/2009/04/a-mess...n-allston.html

Aaron, who is a very dear friend of mine, suffered a heart attack this week and is in the hospital after undergoing bypass surgery. If you are in Texas, please follow the information at the above link as they have set up a blood-donation sponsorship for him. I can't say much right now beyond what's in the announcement, but please pray or send good vibes Aaron's way right now.
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Old Apr 4 2009, 12:28 AM   #66
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I strongly differ with the perception about Vader always being evil, if Star Wars was a standalone film that perception of Vader would be true. We learn through the course of the original trilogy Vader’s original constitution is that of a Jedi. first the story of Anakin Luke’s father by Obi-Won when he and Luke first met on tatooine in episode IV. second In episode V we learn Vader is the father of Luke. “Luke I am your Father.” This changes our perception of Lord Vader, how can this be If Anakin is Luke’s father? Finally in episode VI, Obi-Wan now with the force finishes his story about Anakin and we then learn that he and Vader are one in the same, then the most compelling aspect of the whole story Anakin takes control of Lord Vader and in the last act of his life he does the right thing sealing his own death in the process.

This is the best literary aspect of Lucas’s trilogy it is what defines Star Wars in and of itself, the internal struggle of good and evil, not just among governments and forces but within an individual against morals and principals, a struggle we each can identify with in our own life. If you take away the conflict within from Lucas’s work I for one would not be a fan, or be having this discussion.

Again while I am a big fan, I have to admit Lucas is not one of my favorite authors. There are much better literary masters. I simply used him as an example in a previous post for this thread.
I've got no problem with Vader's arc in 4, 5, and 6. It's 1, 2 and 3 that nauseate me. A whiney, angst-ridden teen? Puh-leez! Better if an upright and honorable man had been corrupted, not a...brat.
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Old Apr 7 2009, 01:49 AM   #67
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the NJO level seemed to dismiss global evil if they exercised personal heroics to atone for it. (Carida anyone?)
To be fair, the sentence Luke gave Kyp for nuking Cardia was in many respects worse than the one Corran advocated for.

Remember, Kyp did have some help -- he was actively corrupted by a particularity nasty Dark Lord of the Sith whose standard MO was to corrupt the strongest of his enemies and use them against the rest.

Kun was so good at corrupting Jedi that only the few with years of discipline and dark side experience behind them had a decent shot at beating him. How can you expect an inexperienced former mine slave to successfully resist Kun's wiles when even the far more mature likes of Luke and Corran were hard pressed to resist them?

Then again: with the advantage of over 4000 years of practice and experience, wouldn't one expect Kun to be something of a challenge?


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Also Luke tended towards not believing a Jedi had been truly tested until they had turned towards the dark side for a while then traipsed back. I can understand trials by fire, but sheesh.
Which is something most of the people close to him (if not all) called him on at one time or another. Given Luke's experiences with the dark side -- which tended to define 'extreme' -- his attitude was perfectly understandable.

And from what I could tell, Luke was pretty much over it by the end of Survivor's Quest.


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OJO vs. NJO masters were on the council, knights weren't. NJO masters ere decided by their skills in the force.
Among other things, yes they were.
Does it really make all that much sense to clutter up the ruling elite with developing talent?


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no real information about who decided when Luke became a Jedi Master.
IIRC, Luke himself did.
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Old Aug 2 2009, 07:56 PM   #68
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Bats is a Fan of Star Wars once I noticed a certain Bounty Hunter called
Boba Fett I just adore him ,,
As for George I think he got a bit of a surprise that Boba became so popular
he still won't give him credit,,his ideas I feel seemed to gone blank ,shame
he doesn't get that writer who did the Buffy series his ideas are so far ahead
But I did see a preview of a Cartoon on Star Wars and if looks like a Female
version of Boba,,and the Villian is a real dark one too,I will find out where it
is been shown .
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Old Aug 14 2009, 11:10 PM   #69
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Luke proclaimed himself a Jedi Master. kinda warring factions on feelings about that. "kinda presumptuous" hits first, but followed quickly by who else is that far gone in the force to know if he hit some mastery level. Ah well, taking a sidetrip away from SW, maybe will get back into it in a few more months.

yes Bats, Boba Fett was the ultimate in bad assery, just short of Vader. The guy NOBODY wants to hear is coming, because they never actually see him 'til its too late. I suppose Lucas has blinders on, what people like/love, and will pay out the nose to see he ignores in favor of his own views. though fett was supposed to be a bad guy who needed to be vanquished in George's original fairy tale.
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Old Aug 26 2009, 05:11 AM   #70
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The Cartoon I saw the preview of is a new GAME Dam!!! and all that goes
with that Cussing
Yes Mr Lucus really threw a Swifty in with Jango Fett really didn't explain
why Jango wanted a Clone Son I think to do his dirty work as Jango did know
of the bigger plan that was ahead ,,and wanted Boba Fett for some purpose
Boba played small parts ,but he did stand out ,when he was flirting with that Red head I wa so jealous , in one of my Avatars I did have me and Boba, he was so tall too I was on Tippy Toes: but I still have him with me on this Avatar
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