A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum  

Go Back   A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum > The Anne McCaffrey Collection > Dragonriders of Pern

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Jun 25 2006, 12:51 PM   #1
Gidget2
Brainship
Courier
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wiltshire, England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Ship Series
Now Reading: Dragonheart, baby!
Default Lords Holder after Thread

I don't know if this has been mentioned before anywhere here, and if it has then please excuse me but a lot has been made about how the Dragonriders and Weyrfolk are going to have to adapt and change their ways and find new tasks and occupations after the last Pass ends and Thread is no more.

I would like to ask all you MoMers about the Lords Holder. It is stated that the 'current' (that is 9th Pass) Pernese society of Weyr, Hall and Hold came about specifically because of Thread. The most important and noticeable difference between the original Charter and it's directives about life on Pern is the change from autonomous Stakeholders to holders being subject to/beholden to a Lord Holder. The Lord Holder's job is to protect those in his care from the Thread and in return for their tithing and support, the holders get this protection and also other perks and benefits.

Now, in post-9th Pass Pern there will be no Thread, thus taking away the main reason for having the Lords Holder. Do you think that there will be some kind of 'revolt' against the tithings and that way of life with support given by a rich land-owner? Do you think that there will be a reduction in the tithes given over, and therefore a reduction in the responsibilities meted out by said Lord Holder?

Or maybe some holders would like to carry on as before, as they always have done.

Or maybe the original boundaries of lands governed by Fort, Telgar, Ruatha or Boll will eventually become self-governing 'countries' - all holders within them with a degree of autonomynity but all bound by the original Charter nonetheless?

What do we think would happen with this side of the society? And would the Halls change their structure at all?
Gidget2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 25 2006, 01:35 PM   #2
granath
Talent
Tower Prime
 
granath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Proud Mom!
Gender: F
Fan of: Afra Lyon
Now Reading: Faye Upton: Dragonchoice 3
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

It's a very good point you bring up here, and I don't think it's been discussed before. The Lords make a big deal of not believing dragonriders really and truly want to get rid of thread, but maybe some of the smarter ones are afraid of what'll happen when being holdless is no longer such a threat as during a Pass...
__________________
Decaf coffee is an oxymoron. Instant coffee is an abomination. Give me the real thing and nobody gets hurt.
"Do. Or do not. There is no try" -- Yoda
VP of the Afra Lyon fan club!
granath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 25 2006, 04:38 PM   #3
c_ris
Journeyman Harper Roedin
Wing Second
 
c_ris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Great Britain
Gender: M
Fan of: the Dragonriders of Pern!
Now Reading: The Elder Gods - Eddings
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

To start with, it is unlikely that the old hegemony of the Lords and their families will survive long, especially in the form of sovereign power which they currently exist.

The end of Thread would cause a great change in the entire Pernese political structure, as being 'holdless' would no longer hold the same level of fear which it would when Thread still existed. However, they must have alternatives to this anyway, since during an Interval of 200 Turns the threat of being holdless would have much less impact on the ordinary Pernese, since Thread would not be coming in their lifetimes. One problem with this, though, is that being named 'holdless' is more than just not being able to live in a Hold, but kin to Shunning - Ted Tubberman's punishemnt in Dragonsdawn.

The Lord Holders would also lose their complete control over the holders themselves, and probably also the right of control over the land of their Holds.

Quite frankly, Pern would most likely take several steps along the way towards what we call democracy.
__________________
Roedin Of Pern

"When a harper is silenced, all men should listen harder." AtWoP
c_ris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 25 2006, 06:31 PM   #4
Maduk
Inactive
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New York - USA
Gender: M
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

I don't know what you guys think about this, but I'll just throw this in. Regarding the Dragonriders, do you think they would become some sort of eventual police force? Dragons seem to pick pretty good people, and that's an instant appearing police force, sooo. Once again, just a raw, probably stupid, idea.
Maduk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 25 2006, 08:47 PM   #5
c_ris
Journeyman Harper Roedin
Wing Second
 
c_ris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Great Britain
Gender: M
Fan of: the Dragonriders of Pern!
Now Reading: The Elder Gods - Eddings
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

In a way, yes. Though I doubt that dragonriders would be accepted as a police force in the modern sense, since there can be good riders and bad riders - and there is no chance to change them.
__________________
Roedin Of Pern

"When a harper is silenced, all men should listen harder." AtWoP
c_ris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 26 2006, 03:16 AM   #6
granath
Talent
Tower Prime
 
granath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Proud Mom!
Gender: F
Fan of: Afra Lyon
Now Reading: Faye Upton: Dragonchoice 3
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

Less of a police force, more kind of emergency transportation. Craftmasters and Lords, and very rarely commoners, got the chance to ride a-dragonback. Dragonriders will need to hold for themselves after thread's gone, but they'll probably trade for other items they want by transporting people from place to place.

I could even imagine some dragonriders giving holder women wanting abortions a suitably extended visit between. For a fee, of course. Healers have access to the AIVAS database, if not the AI, and as they advance, sooner or later someone's going to realize that carrying every fetus to term would be counter-productive from a health perspective even in a world looking to increase its population.
__________________
Decaf coffee is an oxymoron. Instant coffee is an abomination. Give me the real thing and nobody gets hurt.
"Do. Or do not. There is no try" -- Yoda
VP of the Afra Lyon fan club!
granath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 30 2006, 05:23 PM   #7
Chimaerrha
Inactive
 
Chimaerrha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

A very interestin' point, gidget. If Lords Holder were to protect people from Thread, and there's no more Thread, are they needed? I think people might cling to the tradition because that's what they have had in the past.
Chimaerrha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 1 2006, 09:12 AM   #8
Cheryl
Master Archivist
 
Cheryl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland, USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern!
Now Reading: Paladin of Souls (Bujold)
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

I think in the North especially it will be a long time before the Lord Holder model is done away with, but that the ties between the smaller Holders looking to a vast regional Lord Holder will dissolve in time, and Lords may also start parcelling up some of their lands between multiple heirs. With the threat of Thread, it made sense to keep things in the hands of one person, but now there'll be less reason not to divvy things up a bit between heirs.

The south on the other hand, I think will be divided and governed much more like it was by the original colonists under the charter, and they may even use the charter for the guidelines on establishing stakeholds.
__________________
Visit one of the other sites of Cheryl's Anne McCaffrey Triad:
Sariel's Guide to Pern: a detailed guide to the series
The Many Works of Anne McCaffrey: largest fan site about Anne and ALL of her works
McCaffrey Quest: annual trivia contest.
Cheryl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 3 2006, 07:33 PM   #9
Sandi
Senior Member

 
Sandi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Gender: F
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

Personally, I've always thought Thread had a stabilizing impact on Pern and I've often speculated on what would happen after it was permanently removed as a threat. It seems likely that, human nature being what it is, a period of anarchy is likely to develop fairly quickly. People are realizing that the Charter states they do have rights to own their own place in the world and I wonder if the world really is big enough for all of them to do so. The major holds are likely to be broken up with or without the Lord's consent. Toric seems to me to be particularly vulnerable to assination or at least a violent revolt since many of the people he is using to further his ambitions are just as ambitious as he is.

As for the dragonriders, I fear they may have too many troubles of their own to form any sort of world-wide police force. It takes a lot of livestock to keep a dragon fed and it takes a lot of real estate to provide a lot of livestock. There is also the matter that many (if not most) dragonriders probably don't know enough about farming or other craft activities to really fend for themselves.

I've let this run on too long. Time to let someone else speak!
Sandi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 4 2006, 09:54 AM   #10
c_ris
Journeyman Harper Roedin
Wing Second
 
c_ris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Great Britain
Gender: M
Fan of: the Dragonriders of Pern!
Now Reading: The Elder Gods - Eddings
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

Dragonriders might not know much in the way of Crafts NOW, but within a couple of generations they will. I suspect that ragonriders will be supported by the rest of the Pernese for a good while after the end of Thread anyway, just in thanks for what they did for them.
__________________
Roedin Of Pern

"When a harper is silenced, all men should listen harder." AtWoP
c_ris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 5 2006, 01:33 PM   #11
Chimaerrha
Inactive
 
Chimaerrha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

I agree. Also, it says in the DLG (I know, I know, but it makes sense) that riders also take up other crafts on the side many times. They can do THAT after Fall - like when F'lar and Lessa speculate in SoP.
Chimaerrha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 7 2006, 03:52 AM   #12
Lady Cin
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Clanton, AL
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, CS, T&H
Now Reading: The Great Hunt, WoT R. Jordan
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

If you don't mind a lurkers input..

I believe that what happens to Pernese society after Thread will depend almost entirely on the Harpers.

You have to remember that the level of education on Pern is much lower than what we Terrans would consider normal. Children are taught the traditional ballads by rote.. only advanced students would learn to read, write or do arithmatic. Most children are expected to become the same type of worker as their parents, whether they are farmers, fishermen or beastherders. If they don't follow their parents craft, they most likely would become a crafter of the major craft in their hold.

It wasn't until the re-discovery of AIVAS that the 9th Pass Pernese even knew there was a Charter.. so the vast majority of the population has no clue. The Harpers know.. and the Lord Holders.. and the Dragonriders.. but it will take the Harper Hall years and years (if not decades) to re-educate the regular population.

Personal speculation here.. If I had to guess, I would think that Pernese society would become Fuedal. The Lord Holders won't want to give up their power or property. Dragons will still breed and they will still need riders. So there is a leadership caste already in place which will become the Lords and Ladies of the future. As the population expands, they will still need leaders.. enter titles like Duke, Earl, Count, Marquis, etc. each subject to a Lord/Lady.. Dragonriders become Knights and either Lords/Ladies in their own right, or they could eventually become sworn subjects to a particular Lord/Lady.

Unless the Harpers intervene.. the Harpers teach the young.. but who decides WHAT they teach???
__________________
Lady Cinnamin Draconna
A founding member of BA (Bond-a-Holics Anonymous)
Member of Clan and one of the Bratpack

My Site | Member of the KTL Team for SETI@Home
Lady Cin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 7 2006, 08:04 AM   #13
c_ris
Journeyman Harper Roedin
Wing Second
 
c_ris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Great Britain
Gender: M
Fan of: the Dragonriders of Pern!
Now Reading: The Elder Gods - Eddings
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

The Charter is mentioned at various pioints throughout MHoP, though, so there must have been some idea of it...
__________________
Roedin Of Pern

"When a harper is silenced, all men should listen harder." AtWoP
c_ris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 8 2006, 07:36 AM   #14
Hans
Master Archivist
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern!
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

Lady Cin, I'm of the opinion that a revised / reworked / adapted charter, based on the original one, was being rpeserved in the Harper Hall with copies in all major Holds. Even Ninth Pass people live according the charter. Things will have been canged and adapted but there's more than enough evidence to say the charter essentials were preserved through time.

It was AIVAS who could confirm that the charter they found in a sealed tube or something in Fort Holds extensive caverns was a copy of the original. And after having read that one the Harper(s) were surprised to learn language (and probably charter chapters) had changed so much over the centuries. Where language was concerned the "shift" was actually much larger than they thought it had been.
__________________
Hans, also known as Elrhan, Master Archivist

Visit The Pern Museum & Archives for all your Pern and Anne McCaffrey News and Resources!
The Pern Museum & Archives is the home of the Pern Encyclopedia and the Pern Bloodlines.
Hans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 11 2006, 12:12 AM   #15
Lady Maelin
Master Artist


 
Lady Maelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern,The Ship Who Sang
Now Reading: Anne's Pern EVERYTHING !
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

I think that the system of Lords, and Holds, will continue as it did when they believed that there was no more thread to worry about. The Lords, would never want to loose there power over the land and it's people. The most that would happen would be a small amount of division between the Lord Holers sons, to maintain control. The Dragonriders would probably become some sort of peace keeping force, in conjuction with the Harper Hall. I don't think there would be any major shifts in power, or status at least not for a very long time, and then only very slowly.
__________________
"To the Horsehead Nebula and back we shall make beautiful music"..."Together!"

The stories of childhood leave an indelible impression,and their author always has a niche in the temple of memory from which the image is never cut out to be thrown on the rubbish heap of things that are outgrown and outlived........Howard Pyle
Lady Maelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 11 2006, 11:19 AM   #16
c_ris
Journeyman Harper Roedin
Wing Second
 
c_ris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Great Britain
Gender: M
Fan of: the Dragonriders of Pern!
Now Reading: The Elder Gods - Eddings
Default Re: Lords Holder after Thread

By no means will the change be FAST, by it will undoubtably happen. Especially once what have been a Pass has come with no Thread, the Lord Holders will lose most of their justification for their power, though I doubt that they will lose their figurehead status for planet-wide decisons such as Conclaves for even longer - though that I suspect will eventually turn into some form of representative government - though quite possibly like the British Parliament with its Commons and Lords (before the current reforms began).
__________________
Roedin Of Pern

"When a harper is silenced, all men should listen harder." AtWoP
c_ris is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Byrt 3 P'ter Exhibit Hall 7 Feb 17 2010 08:16 AM
The Case of the Flaming Flamethrower P'ter Exhibit Hall 17 Feb 17 2010 08:14 AM
Dragonsue Shalyn Exhibit Hall 45 Oct 13 2009 09:42 AM
Thread: what's in a name? ghyle Dragonriders of Pern 23 Mar 28 2006 07:37 PM
After Thread - At what level will the number of dragons go to? c_ris Dragonriders of Pern 23 Sep 25 2005 10:30 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

A Meeting of Minds forum owned by Cheryl B. Miller.
All references to worlds and characters based on Anne McCaffrey’s fiction are copyright © Anne McCaffrey 1967-2008, all rights reserved, and used by permission of the author.