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Old Jun 20 2010, 05:49 PM   #1
Golden Talisath
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Default F'lar loves Lessa?

So, the title may be confusing, but I was just wondering if F'lar's feelings towards Lessa are the same in every part of DF. We know F'lar loves Lessa, especially later, after Ramoth and she jump back in time, but what about the beginning? Did he love her when he took her with him to Benden, or did he just want her with him because he wanted Mnementh to fly Ramoth so he can become Weyrleader?
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Old Jun 20 2010, 06:18 PM   #2
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

When he first took her to Benden she was a prize, a way to help save the Weyr - they desperately needed a strong-minded Weyrwoman. He was angry that she had manipulated him, but she was a means to an end. Even after the first mating flight, he had begun to have feelings for her but she was still shutting him out. I think he realized he loved her when he saw her flying on Ramoth that first time, but even then he didn't realize how much she meant to him until she disappeared.
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Old Jun 20 2010, 06:37 PM   #3
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

That was my opinion as well, although I think that even after the flight he didn't truly love her - only maybe was glad he won her and glad that everything went the way he planed.
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Old Jun 21 2010, 08:14 AM   #4
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

The way I read him, he's not the kind of guy to go out and profess his love of someone unless it's likely to be reciprocated. Like all dragonriders, his dragon gives him all the emotional support he could ever need. For human relationships, anything beyond sex is something to be treated with a modicum of caution, especially when you're dealing with someone as manipulative as Lessa. He certainly has feelings for Lessa before her long jump between times, but I don't think even he realises how much of his heart he has invested in them until she leaves.
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Old Jun 21 2010, 08:36 AM   #5
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Easy to agree with Brenda and Kath on this one.
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Old Jun 21 2010, 09:00 AM   #6
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Yup.
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Old Jun 21 2010, 07:10 PM   #7
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Same here. I think love is part of why he got so upset with her when she flew on Ramoth the first time! <G>
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Old Jun 22 2010, 01:05 PM   #8
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

What Kath said. At the outset, he'd have to be NUTS to be in love with her when he takes her to Benden (that would be falling in love on a stalkerish, superficial, Twilight-esque time scale.) I think he ADMIRES her a lot more than the other bronze riders we see would have--sure, he's PO'd he was manipulated, but when he realizes the scale of Lessa's one-woman resistance plan he's impressed.

My impression after the mating flight is he's a little..not quite miffed, but a bit puzzled that Lessa's not just thrilled to pieces with the whole situation. They've got their dragons, they're the Weyrleaders, the sex is obviously good, what more does she want? I think it really starts to dawn on him how special she is when she rides Ramoth before the Lords, but he still doesn't get this is way past any other relationship he's ever had until he thinks she and Ramoth are dead.
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Old Jul 13 2010, 08:46 PM   #9
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Yeah, I remember that. He was flat LOST once he thought she was gone.
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Old Jul 18 2010, 03:34 AM   #10
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Same here. I think love is part of why he got so upset with her when she flew on Ramoth the first time! <G>
I don't know, at that point Ramoth was more important to him than anything else. The last Gold dragon, the day after her first mating flight. Toss in the high opinion he had of himself and his leadership abilities (fairly close to the truth as written) he saw it as Lessa rebelling openly, which really only the dragonriders themselves at that point would have recognized. Any or all of those were more of a possibility than any deep feelings for Lessa at that point. Once she did her long time jump, and scared the life out of him, then he actually had his feelings for her pointed out. By the "hole" left by her disappearance.
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Old Jul 19 2010, 05:42 PM   #11
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

I think I'm with ghost on this one - he might have been 'fond' of her at that time, Tresa, but along the lines of being fond for a good student, or a new lover, versus being in love. I always read that scene as F'lar being upset that Lessa might undermine his authority when confronting the Lord Holders, and spoil what he was trying to achieve - renewed support for the Weyr.
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Old Jul 20 2010, 10:55 AM   #12
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

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I think I'm with ghost on this one - he might have been 'fond' of her at that time, Tresa, but along the lines of being fond for a good student, or a new lover, versus being in love. I always read that scene as F'lar being upset that Lessa might undermine his authority when confronting the Lord Holders, and spoil what he was trying to achieve - renewed support for the Weyr.
Me three. Though I don't think he was so worried about her undermining his authority (and I think Lessa's immaculate sense of showmanship there impressed him--the HUGE golden queen with the Weyrwoman in white descending from the sky was EXACTLY the sort of overwhelming display the Lords needed to see, and F'lar might have started to have more-than-business warm fuzzies at this point) as OMFGWTFBBQ SHE HAS NO IDEA HOW TO FLY A DRAGON AND THAT IS OUR ONLY BREEDING QUEEN WHAT IF SHE GOES BETWEEN AIEEEE. On the one hand, he's proud and amazed by her, on the other--if they lose Ramoth now, they lose everything.
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Old Jul 20 2010, 05:18 PM   #13
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Conceded. Clearly I need to go back and reread it again. Been a while, so I might've misremembered things.
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Old Jul 22 2010, 01:25 PM   #14
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Me three. Though I don't think he was so worried about her undermining his authority (and I think Lessa's immaculate sense of showmanship there impressed him--the HUGE golden queen with the Weyrwoman in white descending from the sky was EXACTLY the sort of overwhelming display the Lords needed to see, and F'lar might have started to have more-than-business warm fuzzies at this point) as OMFGWTFBBQ SHE HAS NO IDEA HOW TO FLY A DRAGON AND THAT IS OUR ONLY BREEDING QUEEN WHAT IF SHE GOES BETWEEN AIEEEE. On the one hand, he's proud and amazed by her, on the other--if they lose Ramoth now, they lose everything.
He, he... nice thought there, Anareth.
But yes, he was probably more angry of her because she was risking both her and Ramoth's neck, but when he cooled out a little bit (mostly after what Mnementh said about teaching the two to fly between) he probably felt proud. And he probably felt even more proud when she turned out to be exactly the type of Weyrwomen he wanted and needed her to be (even if she was hard to take from time to time).
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Old Jul 24 2010, 01:52 AM   #15
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

" It was infuriating of Lessa to take this moment, when all his energy and attention ought to go to settling the Holders' grievance for a show of rebellion. Why did she have to flaunt her independence so, in full sight of the entire Weyr and all the Lords? "

Pretty much has the feel to me that he wanted a weyrwoman with fire, power, one to help him drag the weyr out of apathy, but he wanted to have control over her. At that moment he realized he didn't have the control he wanted. Until Mnementh got him the double whammy, first pointing out that she might go between to evade them, then improving his mood by reminding F'lar of their first flight together, he was ticked That quote from Dragonflight says why. Her rebelling against HIS authority.

Lessa and F'lar changed through this book. F'lar began changing from a dreamer of Weyr prestige who was on the right track, but still had habits long set; weak weyrwomen, and only one at a time since living memory, Lessa, with Mnementh's help began changing F'lar at this moment into a leader of the most prestigious Weyr. Lessa didn't change so much in this book. Later books she was a lot more mellow, not killing off rivals, or threats, as she did before the beginning. I don't think we got to see as profound change in Lessa, or any female character in any of these books, as F'lar changed in this one point. I still stend by my feelings the F'lar didn't find out how deeply he felt for Lessa until she was gone, temporarily obviously, but he didn't know that.

I keep hearing an 80's Mike and the Mechanics song on this subject.
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Old Jul 25 2010, 08:52 AM   #16
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

He might have wanted control over her, but I think he knew deep inside him that Lessa is not the type of person who will let someone else control her. At that point in the book he was trying to make a point to the Lord Holders and Lessa's interference made them look and listen to her, and not to him. In the end, of course, that didn't make much of a difference to the Holders, and F'lar probably had to admit that he got a good Weyrwomen.
And besides, wasn't it he who helped Lessa rebelled against R'gul? When ever she needed some help he helped her:

Quote:
Now F'lar ... he had disciplined himself and hit wingriders in what Lessa considered the proper direction. For he, unlike the Weyrleader, not only sincerely believed in the Laws and Traditions he followed, he understood them. Time and again she had managed to make sense of a puzzling lesson from a phrase or two F'lar tossed in her direction.
Dragonflight, the chapter where Lessa is thought about the Teaching Ballads by R'gul.

He wanted her to understand the lessons and to know what makes a good Weyrwomen. OK, he probably wanted some control over her, but not the way R'gul did.
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Old Jul 26 2010, 01:11 AM   #17
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I was thinking more of perceptions. Yes, F'lar wanted a strong weyrwoman, but he also expected her to act the way he wanted her to act. When she didn't, we saw incidents of him shaking her. no mention of any bruising like Kylara got, but same level of control. Basically an "I think you are supposed to act this way, you aren't, I'm applying force to change you to my expectations" Mnementh changed his mind about the flying, and he grew, a bit at least.
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Old Jul 26 2010, 07:10 AM   #18
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I was thinking more of perceptions. Yes, F'lar wanted a strong weyrwoman, but he also expected her to act the way he wanted her to act. When she didn't, we saw incidents of him shaking her. no mention of any bruising like Kylara got, but same level of control. Basically an "I think you are supposed to act this way, you aren't, I'm applying force to change you to my expectations" Mnementh changed his mind about the flying, and he grew, a bit at least.
Yes, that shaking thing wasn't good, but he never went further trying to make her listen. He never threaten her if she didn't do something the way he wanted, but yes, he probably never liked her doing something on her own before first talking to him. But even when he was angry at her, I think, he had respect for her.
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Old Jul 27 2010, 05:23 PM   #19
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

I think the shaking has more to do with the bodice-ripper genre of romance novel from whence the plot comes than anything else, as does the implication that F'lar is forcing sex on Lessa outside the mating flights while knowing she's not actually into it.
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Old Jul 27 2010, 11:45 PM   #20
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Plain and simple explanation there. Lessa and F'lar are Lifebonded and the quality they share between themselves is reflected in their Dragons' responses toward each other and their Riders on both ends because, if you'll recall, F'lar had no idea Lessa could talk to any dragon even before Impression (even though later on in Dragonflight F'lar learns of her ability).. so its no small wonder Mnementh took to her as he did
Dragons knowing their Riders intimately as they do.. are aware of Lifebonds when they happen and they are known to respect them I would think... it seems to be the case with F'lar and Lessa AND their Dragons
The fact that Lessas first flight was while she was still a virgin has some merit of irritation for her towards him.. but if you'll also recall she was jealous of Kylara's attentions to him when he'd been Threaded. So i would think that as Lessa the Girl finally accepted her role as Weyrwoman she could accept and understand why F'lar acted as he did . (He sure kicked himself in the tail after the mating flight when he found out what she'd been ..:P AND apologized profusely for his actions. It wasn't too long before she forgave him )
as for the shaking, I'm sure there's not a pair of people out there who hasn't wanted to deck their boyfriend or girlfriend at one time or another. F'lars shaking of Lessa is merely a lesser aggravated show of exasperation on F'lars part than anything. He refuses to hit her (which in my estimating there should have been times where he outright slapped her for antagonizing) but the fact that He remains true to Lessa despite all other temptations should be pointed out for the Lifebonding that has happened ..as Lessa remains true to F'lar.

For the being Lifebonded. one does not have to outright state about it if one is aware of the circumstances. It would be logical to assume F'lar and Lessa are lifebonded in a double mating .. Their Dragons also preferr each other over the rest.

(i apologize for my abysmal typing and editing skills. trying to fix as much as possible with physically errant digits ..:P )

Last edited by Wyld Black Wolf; Jul 31 2010 at 03:19 PM. Reason: adding a bit more detail :)
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Old Jul 28 2010, 11:07 AM   #21
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That is an interesting post but very difficult to read without capitalization. Could you edit, please?
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Old Jul 28 2010, 11:51 AM   #22
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I've never heard of lifebonds in relation to any of the Pern novels, aside from the human-dragon pairing. What lead you to this theory? The interactions between F'lar and Lessa are nowhere near the extremes of the lifebonded characters I'm familiar with from other authors (Mercedes Lackey's work is what I am most familiar with in this instance). It's an interesting idea, but I'm not thinking of anything that would support it.
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Old Jul 28 2010, 05:11 PM   #23
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I've never heard of lifebonds in relation to any of the Pern novels, aside from the human-dragon pairing. What lead you to this theory? The interactions between F'lar and Lessa are nowhere near the extremes of the lifebonded characters I'm familiar with from other authors (Mercedes Lackey's work is what I am most familiar with in this instance). It's an interesting idea, but I'm not thinking of anything that would support it.
I think Wolf is right about the lifebond thing. I mean, Lessa and F'lar are inseperate as far as we know. OK, there are some hard times, but lets face it - what relationship doesn't have those? And their pairing is probably the closest thing to a marriage you could find in a Weyr. OK, it took them some time to get their feelings all sorted out (which was kind of bumpy), but after that, they became a loving couple.

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plain and simple explanation there. Lessa and F'lar are Lifebonded and the quality they share between themselves is reflected in their dragons' responses toward each other and their riders on both ends because if you'll recall.. F'lar had no idea Lessa could talk to any dragon even before impression(even though later on in Dragonflight F'lar learns of her ability).. so its no small wonder Mnementh took to her as he did
but Dragons knowing their riders intimately as they do.. are aware of lifebonds when they happen and they are known to respect them i would think. it seems to be the case with F'lar and Lessa AND their Dragons
the fact that Lessas first flight was while she was still a virgin has some merit of irritation for her towards him.. but if you'll also recall she was jealous of Kylara's attentions to him when he'd been Threaded. so i would think that as Lessa the Girl finally accepted her role as Weyrwoman she could accept and understand why F'lar acted as he did . he sure kicked himself in the tail after the mating flight when he found out what she'd been ..:P AND apologized profusely for his actions. it wasn't too long before she forgave him
as for the shaking. i'm sure theres not a pair of people out there who hasn't wanted to deack their oyfriend o r girlfriend at one time or another. F'lars shaking of Lessa is merely a lesser aggravated show of exasperation on F'lars part than anything. he refuses to hit her (which in my estimating there should have been times where he outright slapped her for antagonizing) but the fact that He remains true to Lessa despite all other temptations should be pointed out for the Lifebonding that has happened ..as Lessa remains true to F'lar
As I remember, Ramoth's first flight took Lessa by surprise, and she may have been angry at F'lar for not telling her what will happen. Also, wasn't it she who called F'lar and K'net back at the time of Ramoth's flight? So, even because F'lar doesn't know that, she may have been angry at herself as well for showing that, and afraid that Mnementh will tell F'lar who called them. She never liked showing her feelings in front of anyone (especially F'lar).
Bur after they got to know each other, and after F'lar showed her that he was willing to accept her as she is (I think that was somewhere after the flight, and after her first lessons in flying) and help her (we all remember how gentle he was after she came back from her first trip to the past). Of course, he could not help himself but hope that that experience would make her more careful - was it because of her own safety (was he afraid that he may lose her) or because she rode the only gold dragon - or even both, we can only guess. Either way, he shows that he cares for her, and I think it was there that he's feeling start to show.
And after the flight, when she rode out in front of the Lords, he's reply to her at the end:''Of course Queens can fly - that's way they have wings'' show us that he probably felt pride and maybe joy that R'gul didn't have time (or strength) to ruin her and make her like Jora - she had a mind of her own and was ready to fight for what she believed belonged to her. He may have understand that even in Ruatha, but than he only wanted a Weyrwomen and treated her just as a Weyrwomen - after the flight, he wanted to treat her with respect and love.
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Old Jul 28 2010, 08:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

I think it's at the end of the chapter with the Lords - he meets her on the ground, and expecting a fight, she says defiantly, "Queens can, too, fly!" He surprises her by saying, "Of course... That's why they have wings." Granting/acknowledging her that freedom.
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Old Jul 29 2010, 12:53 PM   #25
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

But what makes that any different from any other relationship between two well-matched, powerfully-minded people? What makes it a lifebond - which I have always understood to be a 'I cannot survive without you, and am much more a person because of you' kind of relationship?

After all, F'lar was already a powerful and successful person without Lessa, and Lessa was the same without F'lar; he maintained the best and most sought-after wing at Benden, while she hid herself from Fax and orchestrated his death. Lessa could have been a supremely effective Lady Holder at Ruatha if she had not gone to Benden, and F'lar still likely would have become Weyrleader if someone else Impressed Ramoth, because his dragon was the largest and strongest, and he was well-supported by the weyrfolk.

Together, they are certainly more effective than alone, but I don't see their relationship as a lifebond, which is a very extreme connection. It's just a good fit between two people with similar goals who come to love each other for their strengths and personalities.
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Old Jul 29 2010, 05:12 PM   #26
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But what makes that any different from any other relationship between two well-matched, powerfully-minded people? What makes it a lifebond - which I have always understood to be a 'I cannot survive without you, and am much more a person because of you' kind of relationship?
Isn't it that way with them? I mean, they might not understand it at the beginning (and maybe it even wasn't that extreme - or better yet, strong - at the beginning), but it is at the end, after Lessa goes back in times - F'lar is worried sick about her.

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After all, F'lar was already a powerful and successful person without Lessa, and Lessa was the same without F'lar; he maintained the best and most sought-after wing at Benden, while she hid herself from Fax and orchestrated his death. Lessa could have been a supremely effective Lady Holder at Ruatha if she had not gone to Benden, and F'lar still likely would have become Weyrleader if someone else Impressed Ramoth, because his dragon was the largest and strongest, and he was well-supported by the weyrfolk.

Together, they are certainly more effective than alone, but I don't see their relationship as a lifebond, which is a very extreme connection. It's just a good fit between two people with similar goals who come to love each other for their strengths and personalities.
True - their lives would go on if they didn't meet each other - after all, I think F'lar was ''all business'' at the beginning: he needed her to be a Weyrwomen - she became a Weyrwomen; he needed Mnementh to fly Ramoth so he would be Weyreader - Mnementh did so. Only later he started showing interest towards her and her fears and needs. And they understood, as I said before, that they can't live without each other. Maybe it wouldn't have been that way if their lives didn't go as they did. Who knows: if Lessa didn't Impress Ramoth, maybe Kylara would and who knows if she would risk her's and Ramoth's neck for Pern the same way Lessa did. She may not behave the way she did with T'bor - I think F'lar would allow the only Weyrwomen behave that way, but I don't see their bond being as strong as it is with Lessa and F'lar. F'lar himself says he has experience with women - the only question is would he love any other women as deep as he loves Lessa?
And Lessa - she may go into a political marriage (although there isn't anyone to make her, she may thought it best for her Hold, if the other Lords didn't allow her to run the Hold on her own) and may learn to be happy with the guy. she may even truly love the man, but, again like F'lar, would it be as strong? OK, F'lar isn't the only carrying man on Pern, and she may be happy, but Lessa's and F'lar's bonding is unique for the Weyr for it's strength. We see several times that Lessa won't allow any other bronze fly Ramoth, which draws the conclusion that she wouldn't let any other man have her. Remember the scene where she says to F'lar that it better be T'bor's Orth and not his Mnementh who flies Pridith?
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Old Jul 30 2010, 10:39 AM   #27
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But what makes that any different from any other relationship between two well-matched, powerfully-minded people? What makes it a lifebond - which I have always understood to be a 'I cannot survive without you, and am much more a person because of you' kind of relationship?

After all, F'lar was already a powerful and successful person without Lessa, and Lessa was the same without F'lar; he maintained the best and most sought-after wing at Benden, while she hid herself from Fax and orchestrated his death. Lessa could have been a supremely effective Lady Holder at Ruatha if she had not gone to Benden, and F'lar still likely would have become Weyrleader if someone else Impressed Ramoth, because his dragon was the largest and strongest, and he was well-supported by the weyrfolk.

Together, they are certainly more effective than alone, but I don't see their relationship as a lifebond, which is a very extreme connection. It's just a good fit between two people with similar goals who come to love each other for their strengths and personalities.
I really think that Lessa needed to get out Ruatha. If she had stayed there, she might have run Ruatha as ruthlessly as she sought her revenge on Fax. And even if she didn't attack other holds, she might have been as bad as Fax in how she treated others.

People complain about how bad she is as Weyrwoman in manipulating and controlling others. And this is with F'lar to help balance her out. Imagine if she didn't have a strong mate to keep her in balance.

And F'lar wouldn't have been happy with a Weyrwoman that wasn't strong and didn't have the best interests of Pern in mind. So he would have hated a Weyrwoman like Jora or Kylara.

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Old Jul 30 2010, 12:52 PM   #28
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Perhaps my issue is more with the fact that the only lifebonds, under that name, are in the works of Mercedes Lackey, and they are radically different from the relationship between F'lar and Lessa (and, in fact, are mystical in nature). I believe there is a great deal of love, respect and admiration in their relationship, but that doesn't make it something unique and fantastic that merits such a label as being called a lifebond. Great leaders in the real world who have equally great spouses aren't called lifebonded couples, or anything else like that - they have simply found someone who compliments them and helps them acheive their goals, doing the same in turn for their partner. Why would you (any of the advocates for the lifebond label) find it necessary to label F'lar and Lessa as lifebonded?
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Old Jul 30 2010, 02:56 PM   #29
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Isn't it that way with them? I mean, they might not understand it at the beginning (and maybe it even wasn't that extreme - or better yet, strong - at the beginning), but it is at the end, after Lessa goes back in times - F'lar is worried sick about her.
And when my husband is ten minutes late back from work I worry over him (and hey, I did have cause the one time he WAS actually lying on the road run-over...damn, but things like that teach you what worried-sick really means) - but all that means is that I love him to bits and would hate to live my life without him (and that I'm also an anxious type with an overly fertile imagination...).

It doesn't make my marriage a mystical 'lifebond'. All it means is that I love him deeply in exactly the same way as every other loving couple out there. F'lar was worried sick because he loved the woman. I can't imagine anyone in a relationship NOT behaving/feeling/reacting in exactly that way. Nothing special in that beyond the specialness of love itself.
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Old Jul 30 2010, 02:57 PM   #30
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Why would you (any of the advocates for the lifebond label) find it necessary to label F'lar and Lessa as lifebonded?
The problem here is actually what you consider a lifebond? Is that a bond between two people which lasts forever, and the people in it find themselves lost if they loose their partner? Is it such a bond in which the two people are so connected that they make each other lives full and balance each other? Because I believe that's just the bond that F'lar and Lessa have. It doesn't have to be something unique or mystical - like Kath said (she was just faster in writing the message... probably used the time it took me to find the right words... ) - it just has to be strong.
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Old Jul 30 2010, 03:01 PM   #31
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And when my husband is ten minutes late back from work I worry over him (and hey, I did have cause the one time he WAS actually lying on the road run-over...damn, but things like that teach you what worried-sick really means) - but all that means is that I love him to bits and would hate to live my life without him (and that I'm also an anxious type with an overly fertile imagination...).
My mother has the same thing with my dad. If he doesn't call her when he goes abroad or when he gets to his destination, she gets worried sick and calls him to make sure he's OK.
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Old Jul 30 2010, 08:09 PM   #32
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Sorry, I find that I agree with Kath and Semantre. Lifebonds go beyond anything that Anne put in any of her books. Certainly beyond the love bond between F'lar and Lessa. Yes, they love each other. Even have an empathic bond. But it is still not a lifebond. JMHO.
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Old Jul 31 2010, 06:24 PM   #33
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The problem here is actually what you consider a lifebond? Is that a bond between two people which lasts forever, and the people in it find themselves lost if they loose their partner? Is it such a bond in which the two people are so connected that they make each other lives full and balance each other? Because I believe that's just the bond that F'lar and Lessa have. It doesn't have to be something unique or mystical - like Kath said (she was just faster in writing the message... probably used the time it took me to find the right words... ) - it just has to be strong.
i totally agree with talisath . Lifebonds DON'T need mysticism to be there

the fact that Flar and Lessa both have a deep connection and feelings for each other SHOULD be pointed out as a sign of a lifebond. I have a Lifebond with someone and find it trying at times but wonderful to have someone who i CAN talk to. so being in a Lifebond myself i think i might be able to recognize the signs hmmm?

as for kevia and semantre they are not aware of a deeper bond between Lessa and F'lar.
why indeed did Lessa say in the book that no one but Mnementh would fly Ramoth? and F'lar's metal observation of Lessa's jealousy towards Kylara treating his Threadscore.." Flar would never let Lessa know how much he Preferred small, dark, unpredictable Lessa's company over Kylara"

one doesn't have to SAY that theres a lifebond for there to BE one
and the Strength in a Lifebond is more than enough to make Lessa and F'lar feel the way they do about each other.

Oh yes and lets not forget about Lessas collapse before her famous jump 400 turns back. how F'lar had panicked and called Manora to find out what was wrong. and after the look of loving adoration he gave her while she was still out cold.
and the fact F'lar was drinking himself to oblivion when she DID make the jump and Robinton had to stop him from drinking too much ..
then the ovejoyed reaction upon the Joyously triumphant return of Lessas famous jump back between times.
if i recall correctly the book also said something about him being in numb heartstopping panic when she went.
only to have that dissolve to a numb and weary pain of what he believed to be a loss that he tried to drink to blunt.
yeah being lifebonded maes you do say and think some strange things :P
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Old Aug 1 2010, 04:10 AM   #34
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And yet, none of what you describe is inconsistent with the null hypothesis...

Look, let's try looking at this rationally. We have several options here.

F'lar and Lessa have a loving, monogamous relationship comparable to a normal, loving marriage, something which Anne is familiar with the existence of, and is known either directly or indirectly to humanity in its billions. The odds that this is what Anne was portraying are inevitably high.

Or, they have something akin to Lackey's lifebonds, a far later published idea which has mystical extra added properties, none of which are displayed directly in canon Pern. You work out the odds....

If you want us to take this idea seriously, you need to [1] give a proper definition of how a lifebond differs from a normal, loving, committed, monogamous relationship, and [2] show that those differences exist in F'lar and Lessa's relationship.

Unfortunately, normal love makes a very powerful null hypothesis, and it isn't going to be easy for you to reject it.


I think the main issue here is that people have differing definitions of what a 'lifebond' is. If all you mean is love+monogamy+long term commitment, then we're all in agreement, and just using different words for the same thing (in effect, a 'common law marriage').
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Old Aug 1 2010, 05:22 AM   #35
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when youre lifebonded you don't feel the need to "roam elsewhere"

it doesn't really matter what words you use .. a lifebonds a lifebond. *shrugs*
and as for normal caring and loving? theres not that much of it going around these days with tension flaring and tempers being lost regularly..:P relationships are hard to come by these days and good ones are even harder.
As Flar and Lessa both have each other to count on now theyve a fully functioning partnership not only between themselves and their dragons ..but also between each other as well. there is no mysticism as mercedes had put it. no magic no myths.
no. "oh we're lifebonded we know each other magically like we do ourselves. (NOT!)"

but people notice when a couple of very contented people happen to share time in a public place. they "glow" for lack of a better terminology...
people can't seem to not respect them for the feeling they portray of themselves . (confident, calm , and mostly in control but equal not subservient)

besides the topic i believe was about flar loves lessa?
Tho Anne may not have written it outright. Shes got the concept of lifebond down

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Old Aug 1 2010, 11:55 AM   #36
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Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Seriously though, where did you get this word "lifebond"? Do you use it in everyday speech to describe the relationships of people you know? Because even if you don't intend to describe something mystical, that is the impression you are putting across. "In love" is one thing. "Lifebond" sounds like it's their destiny or something.

*edit*

Also, I mentioned it before but I'm saying it more pointedly here: It is hard to respect anything you say when you can't be bothered to capitalize your sentences. It makes it harder to read, believe it or not, and it interferes with what you are trying to communicate.
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Old Aug 1 2010, 12:38 PM   #37
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when youre lifebonded you don't feel the need to "roam elsewhere"
Oh, so you DO just mean the concept more commonly known as 'monogamy'.

Sheesh.
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Old Aug 1 2010, 12:44 PM   #38
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Actually, I've been thinking about this topic a little, and it got me wondering.

Dragons. Aside from all the mating flight malarkey, do they make relationships easier or harder to maintain?

On the one side, you have an inside-route to the thoughts of your partner via their own dragon, plus another mind (your dragons's) to help you reflect on how they act/who they are/what they mean at any given time. You're not going to have any illusions.

But... does either the maintainance or breaking of illusions illusions make or break a relationship?

On the other - you have so much emotional entanglement with your dragon, do you need that depth of commitment with another human, who inevitably won't love or understand you as much as your dragon already does?

Me, I think that there will be less need to love other humans - people aren't going to stick together purely for companionship or out of loneliness- but love isn't something that comes with limits.

Thoughts?
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Old Aug 1 2010, 05:42 PM   #39
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Seriously though, where did you get this word "lifebond"?
I was about to ask that myself. That word was never used in the Pern novels, and, like you said, the only thing close to it in the relationships between F'lar and Lessa is a marriage. We never said their love is perfect - they make mistakes, like everybody else, but they try to solve the problems they have and work things out.

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i totally agree with talisath . Lifebonds DON'T need mysticism to be there

the fact that Flar and Lessa both have a deep connection and feelings for each other SHOULD be pointed out as a sign of a lifebond. I have a Lifebond with someone and find it trying at times but wonderful to have someone who i CAN talk to. so being in a Lifebond myself i think i might be able to recognize the signs hmmm?

as for kevia and semantre they are not aware of a deeper bond between Lessa and F'lar.
why indeed did Lessa say in the book that no one but Mnementh would fly Ramoth? and F'lar's metal observation of Lessa's jealousy towards Kylara treating his Threadscore.." Flar would never let Lessa know how much he Preferred small, dark, unpredictable Lessa's company over Kylara"

one doesn't have to SAY that theres a lifebond for there to BE one
and the Strength in a Lifebond is more than enough to make Lessa and F'lar feel the way they do about each other.

Oh yes and lets not forget about Lessas collapse before her famous jump 400 turns back. how F'lar had panicked and called Manora to find out what was wrong. and after the look of loving adoration he gave her while she was still out cold.
and the fact F'lar was drinking himself to oblivion when she DID make the jump and Robinton had to stop him from drinking too much ..
then the ovejoyed reaction upon the Joyously triumphant return of Lessas famous jump back between times.
if i recall correctly the book also said something about him being in numb heartstopping panic when she went.
only to have that dissolve to a numb and weary pain of what he believed to be a loss that he tried to drink to blunt.
yeah being lifebonded maes you do say and think some strange things :P
And remember how he didn't care if anybody was watching him when Lessa came back from the past - he didn't care what people would think about him showing emotions like that, the only thing he carried about was the fact that Lessa and Ramoth were there, that she was OK and that he was holding her in his arms - nothing else in the world mattered.

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Actually, I've been thinking about this topic a little, and it got me wondering.

Dragons. Aside from all the mating flight malarkey, do they make relationships easier or harder to maintain?

On the one side, you have an inside-route to the thoughts of your partner via their own dragon, plus another mind (your dragons's) to help you reflect on how they act/who they are/what they mean at any given time. You're not going to have any illusions.

But... does either the maintainance or breaking of illusions illusions make or break a relationship?

On the other - you have so much emotional entanglement with your dragon, do you need that depth of commitment with another human, who inevitably won't love or understand you as much as your dragon already does?

Me, I think that there will be less need to love other humans - people aren't going to stick together purely for companionship or out of loneliness- but love isn't something that comes with limits.

Thoughts?
Well, for one thing, you won't feel lonely if you don't have a mate of your own - dragons feel the emptiness you would feel if you didn't have anyone else. Remember that, while Kylara was a terrible Weyrwomen, somehow Pridith would always find a way to her? You probably don't even need anyone else.
But love works in strange ways... I don't think a dragons completely fills the place of a human partner - dragons think and behave in different ways and you need humans to limit you. F'lar was the one who stopped Lessa and Ramoth from killing all of the Oldtimers when they stole Ramoth's egg.
And what if some day you end up without your dragon? For some people that would mean that they need to follow their dragons to death. But for those who have someone else in the world, they can move on - they may never be the same, and most probably people, even their partner, wouldn't completely understand how they feel, but sometimes you just need the people you love (and know that love you back) beside you to forget your pain and move on.
Of course... knowing always what your partner feels and thinks works two ways:
1) if the partner is honest you don't need your dragon to tell you what he is thinking and feeling. Sometimes it's trust you need.
2) if the partner is not honest, it's better to know, right?
Than again, are you being honest if you go into your partner's thoughts?
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Rise the dragonmen of Pern,
Aloft, on wing, seen, then unseen.
Dragonman avoid excess
Greed will bring the Weyr distress;
To the ancient Laws adhere,
Prospers thus the Dragon-weyr.
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Old Aug 1 2010, 06:10 PM   #40
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Well, the DLGtP does say dragons take care of just about any emotional fulfillment their rider needs, but on the other hand, they aren't human. Sometimes humans need humans; we're generally not solitary creatures. Being alone for long periods of time can make some people near crazy.

(I speak from experience; I had NO real life friends, only internet pals, from the beginning of middle school through some time in community college. That was probably about three to five years. Either my friends and I fell out of touch or they stopped reciprocating my efforts. I was farking LONELY, and my twin was no help: She was off becoming her own person.)

In the case of weyrmates who are both riders, it might make the relationship easier, 'cause there's an accord from living and fighting together, and an understanding that dragons and duties come first, always. In the case of weyrmates where only one partner is a rider, it might make it harder. "Dragonman, dragonman, between thee and thine, share me that glimpse of love greater than mine," and such.
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