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Old Mar 25 2006, 12:03 AM   #1
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Default Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

I've been thinking, well, it had been thinking about it for a while.

Question: Is there any Pernese people that is deaf or blind?

I'm curious, is there a possiblity?

I know over time, that there could be possiblity of recessive traits to come in more frequency, there wouldn't be any new genes (unless mutation comes to play).

As I was thinking about it. I know cousins marrying each other seemed to bring up a lot of birth defects. Over the turns, since there wouldn't be any new families coming to pern, I was thinking, by ninth pass, would there be any deaf or blind people in pern?

I know AVAIS did made some people deaf, by it's defences. What about naturally deaf and naturally blind people?

Another thing, would there be some people that would be color blind?

I'm bad a cat, when it comes to curiousity. I'm curious if there's a possility of deaf, blind or color blind people in Pern, by ninth pass.
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Old Mar 25 2006, 12:34 AM   #2
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Only if such were the result of natural mutations, I suppose, and that would be rare. Most of that would have been ameliorated through gene therapy, well before the start of colonisation, and I'm sure they'd test potential colonists for genetic problems.

Accidents, however....
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Old Mar 25 2006, 12:36 AM   #3
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

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Originally Posted by ghyle
Only if such were the result of natural mutations, I suppose, and that would be rare. Most of that would have been ameliorated through gene therapy, well before the start of colonisation, and I'm sure they'd test potential colonists for genetic problems.

Accidents, however....
I'm not saying for the start of the colonization.. I'm saying like many, many turns after colonization.

Like in Ninth Pass.
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Old Mar 25 2006, 04:19 AM   #4
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Well, Wansor was next to blind, wasn't he? Ironic though, considering he was a glass-smith Though that would probably be due to age... if you mean deaf/blind from birth, I can't recall any mentions of it, but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible over time.
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Old Mar 25 2006, 04:37 AM   #5
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

The girl from Dragon Kin was blind wasn't she? That was only 3rd pass or something wasn't it?
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Old Mar 25 2006, 05:38 AM   #6
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Yaeh she was. But are we counting books by Todd here?
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Old Mar 25 2006, 08:04 PM   #7
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Since it was also by Anne, you can't exactly discount it.

Given that we already know that birth defects are possible (witness Camo from the Harper Hall series), there's no reason why there would not be people born deaf or blind as well. You wouldn't see much of these people in the books, given the subjects of them, because Pernese society clearly does not regard such people well.
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Old Mar 25 2006, 09:29 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Falkieri
Since it was also by Anne, you can't exactly discount it.

Given that we already know that birth defects are possible (witness Camo from the Harper Hall series), there's no reason why there would not be people born deaf or blind as well. You wouldn't see much of these people in the books, given the subjects of them, because Pernese society clearly does not regard such people well.
Anne also previously said that whers can't go between or impress, yet it still happens in Dragon's Kin Even if she "co-wrote" it, I still firmly believe that none of that would have happened had she written it all herself.
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Old Mar 25 2006, 10:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

I'm sure it would be possible.... I'm another one who would discount Dragons Kin and focus on only *Anne* written books.

Again as was said earlier, Deaf or Blind people wouldn't be in positions to impress dragons or be high up in places like the Harper Hall and so wouldn't deserve a mention in the books.
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Old Mar 25 2006, 11:30 PM   #10
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Reason why I'm curious if they are. I know they wouldn't be mention in the books. Unless they did something so drastic, I figured they wouldn't be mentioned.

Hence my curiousity of thinking of there are such possiblity.
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Old Mar 26 2006, 12:32 AM   #11
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

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Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
Anne also previously said that whers can't go between or impress, yet it still happens in Dragon's Kin Even if she "co-wrote" it, I still firmly believe that none of that would have happened had she written it all herself.
She may have said that, but not in any of the books, and that's the only place it counts. The books she wrote herself are not terribly consistent either, so I wouldn't discount anything.
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Old Mar 26 2006, 01:47 AM   #12
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Well, deaf and/or blind people would be a burden to others - and unless they did something extraordinary, they wouldn't be mentioned in the books. There aren't really very many people who are mentioned specifically in the books; what are the odds that there would be someone with a disability like that? Discounting DragonsKin, the only person with a disability that I can think of is Runel in Moreta - the probably-autistic man who would recite runner bloodlines back to the very beginning if prompted, without any way of stopping him. I'm also not counting Wansor, whose eyesight failed from age; he didn't appear to have any trouble in DQ when the far-viewer was first demonstrated, and if he had visual problems at that time I really doubt that he would have taken such an interest in the stars - he wouldn't have been able to see them!

There are always people who lose their eyesight and/or hearing as they grow old, and there would surely be occasional accidents that might do the same; there might also be illnesses, like the scarlet fever that left Helen Keller blind and deaf. But what are the odds of those?
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Old Mar 26 2006, 04:29 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Falkieri
She may have said that, but not in any of the books, and that's the only place it counts. The books she wrote herself are not terribly consistent either, so I wouldn't discount anything.
Yes, there are many inconsistancies, but usually those are timeline errors, name flubs, dragon colors switches. Even though it may not have explicitly stated it in the books, she made it VERY clear in interviews, and whether it's in a book or an interview, fans still read it and trust it and will see anything else as an inconsistancy if it published. This is a major inconsistancy, something that can't just be accidentally overlooked. The only other thing like that I can recall is when dragons had scales and ears in Dragonflight, but smooth skin and headknobs in the rest. But that's understandable due to Anne just starting to build her world. Dragon's Kin was written far after Pern was fully established, there is no excuse for it in my mind.
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Old Mar 26 2006, 12:49 PM   #14
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Besides it would be very hard for a blind person to impress a dragon as they have to show where they are going in between right? And a deaf person won't heard the leaders from dragonback but they might impress. That might not be a bad idea for a short story for Anne or Todd. I deaf person impressing a dragon.
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Old Mar 26 2006, 12:57 PM   #15
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

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Originally Posted by Topaz the Golden
Besides it would be very hard for a blind person to impress a dragon as they have to show where they are going in between right? And a deaf person won't heard the leaders from dragonback but they might impress. That might not be a bad idea for a short story for Anne or Todd. I deaf person impressing a dragon.
But if they were a HAD, the dragons could tell 'em. Or just their own dragon.
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Old Mar 26 2006, 02:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
Even though it may not have explicitly stated it in the books, she made it VERY clear in interviews, and whether it's in a book or an interview, fans still read it and trust it and will see anything else as an inconsistancy if it published.
Expecting a writer to remain consistent with things said in an interview that were never published is putting far too much on the writer, IMO. I expect consistency in the books, but, a writer should not be constrained to reject any ideas that may come to them because its not consistent with something said in an interview.

I can't see, given the Pernese attitude about disabilities, that a blind or deaf person would ever get on a hatching ground to impress. Of course, Dragons have chosen from the audience on occassion.
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Old Mar 26 2006, 03:05 PM   #17
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Anne: says no blind riders....

"Q: Hmmm..A story that got sent to me made me wonder. Would a dragon
impress to a blind person? and perhaps be their eyes? Even if the blind
person is quite able to live and function as well as any sighted person?

I never meant a blind rider in a threadfighting situation, but in an
interval or such..One who maybe lost his/her sight due to accident. Not
realy handicaped, but having learned to live indepenantly. Would a young,
silly green be bright enough not to impress a blind person who fell out of
the stands in front of her? Even if she couldn't look into her eyes,
perhaps she could see into a brave heart? No Weyrleader in their right
mind would allow such a person to fight thread, even if it was during a
pass. I was thinking of a case where a person who is very empathic, but
lost his/her sight due to an accident while young.

Anne: No blind riders...could have fire-lizards act as eyes, but how in Hell
could a fighter KNOW when, how, Thread is falling. The pair are a team
and not even a dragon can see everywhere at once, even with faceted eyes.
NO deaf riders, and few with any physical impairment because fighting
adragonback is hard work, and keeping them clean is harder. You've
groomed horses - multiply that by three times and you've got the size of a
dragon to keep clean.

Remember, too, that the gene pool of the original colonists had been very
carefully analysed and all genetic faults rejected. By then, of course, a
lot of medication was gene-alteration to improve overall health so you'd
have few genetically transmitted faults. Of course, in the later years
the medics have lost the art of genetic repair but they don't NEED that
much because the gene stock was healthy and self-repairing. A point to
remember. There can be enough bad falls, accidents, etc. to take the
place of birth defects, thank you.


No, no blind riders. ONly absolutely healthy people can be
presented. There are dogs, on Pern, and there are fire-lizards
and they could be good seeing eye substitutes, but not dragon
Impressing a blind person no matter how empathic. "

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2726/amint.html
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Old Mar 26 2006, 03:33 PM   #18
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

There was that nearly deaf drum master in one of the Harper Hall books. No matter how perfect the gene therapy, there will always be handicapped people.
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Old Mar 26 2006, 04:09 PM   #19
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

::winces at Brenda:: No reason the deaf, blind or Deafblind need to be a burden if there was someone around to teach them, even on Pern. And they could still go into some crafts. You don't need to hear in order to sew or weave or carve or plant or even take care of beasts. Probably it would be more difficult for the blind if they couldn't depend solely on touch, but I know some very good blind musicians. Cooking would be a bit harder on Pern, but again not impossible. In the Holds and Weyrs someone would surely come up with the idea of using wooden sticks for canes. And if nothing else, there's tending children so everyone else is free to go about other tasks.

Scuse me... :;gets off soapbox:: Now for the other question...
I've said it before, and I'll say again, I do think it's possible for there to be deaf and blind people on Pern, I refuse to think otherwise. Either from birth or through accident, by the ninth pass.

Just remembered something - I read in another book about weavers going blind from long years bent over a loom in poor light. So there's bound to be blind weavers even as early as the 2nd Pass.
And with low vision, it is still possible to weave or crochet, you just have to hold the work close and feel for the stiches. I know. So if someone comes along and finds a blind child being treated like a burden she could be introduced to that craft and not be a burden anymore.
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Old Mar 26 2006, 04:26 PM   #20
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Quote:
Originally Posted by granath
There was that nearly deaf drum master in one of the Harper Hall books. No matter how perfect the gene therapy, there will always be handicapped people.
Master Arnor was the Archivist who was nearly blind...if that's who ya mean. But he was really old and closeted in musty record archives for YEARs - I think his eyes went out because of the poor lighting/et al...not because of genes.
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Old Mar 26 2006, 06:05 PM   #21
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkieri
Expecting a writer to remain consistent with things said in an interview that were never published is putting far too much on the writer, IMO. I expect consistency in the books, but, a writer should not be constrained to reject any ideas that may come to them because its not consistent with something said in an interview.

I can't see, given the Pernese attitude about disabilities, that a blind or deaf person would ever get on a hatching ground to impress. Of course, Dragons have chosen from the audience on occassion.
If it were some minor tidbit, I'd agree. But this is something that has remained fairly consistant in all her interviews over the years, and the ONLY reason I can think of to suddenly toss that out the window is Todd.
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Old Mar 27 2006, 01:13 AM   #22
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
If it were some minor tidbit, I'd agree. But this is something that has remained fairly consistant in all her interviews over the years, and the ONLY reason I can think of to suddenly toss that out the window is Todd.
True, she may never have come up with the idea on her own, that doesn't mean she didn't like it. I have a world of my own I've created and ran for the last 25 years playing an RPG, and there have been a number of things that changed over the years from a position that I once held, because people change their minds about things over time. I'd be rather upset, actually, to be held accountable to doing something that did not create an inconsistency in the world because I once maintained outside the game that it couldn't happen. The key is not that something she maintained outside her world has changed, but is it consistent with what she has publsihed before. In the case of what we're talking about, its not inconsistent, per se, but it does feel shoehorned in.

Of course, none of that has anything to do with this subject except that there is a blind girl in Dragon's Kin, so those who accept that Anne has given Pern over to Todd can say, "yes, Pern has blind people", and those who do not can say, "we've never seen one".
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Old Mar 27 2006, 06:53 AM   #23
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Handicapped people, absolutely. Handicapped dragonriders, no way.
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Old Mar 27 2006, 04:21 PM   #24
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Yeah, except through age or accident!
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Old Mar 28 2006, 06:25 AM   #25
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Indeed. Obviously, if a dragonrider got injured riding, the dragon would still be there for him or her.
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Old Mar 28 2006, 12:13 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenrider Tresa
::winces at Brenda:: No reason the deaf, blind or Deafblind need to be a burden if there was someone around to teach them, even on Pern. And they could still go into some crafts. You don't need to hear in order to sew or weave or carve or plant or even take care of beasts. Probably it would be more difficult for the blind if they couldn't depend solely on touch, but I know some very good blind musicians. Cooking would be a bit harder on Pern, but again not impossible. In the Holds and Weyrs someone would surely come up with the idea of using wooden sticks for canes. And if nothing else, there's tending children so everyone else is free to go about other tasks.

Scuse me... :;gets off soapbox:: Now for the other question...
I've said it before, and I'll say again, I do think it's possible for there to be deaf and blind people on Pern, I refuse to think otherwise. Either from birth or through accident, by the ninth pass.

Just remembered something - I read in another book about weavers going blind from long years bent over a loom in poor light. So there's bound to be blind weavers even as early as the 2nd Pass.
And with low vision, it is still possible to weave or crochet, you just have to hold the work close and feel for the stiches. I know. So if someone comes along and finds a blind child being treated like a burden she could be introduced to that craft and not be a burden anymore.
I agree her with Tresa, there is no reason that the handicap person, be it blind or deaf or even crippled in some manner, could not overcome their handicap, and lead a normal life even on Pern. On Pern many have overcome personal problems, or handicaps, to become valued member of the society. Lessa, K'van, Lytol, and Brekke to name a few. No they were not blind or deaf, but their kind of problems were just different kinds of problems to overcome, and they all can be overcome with determination. IMO !!!
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Old Mar 28 2006, 01:38 PM   #27
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Quote:
There was that nearly deaf drum master in one of the Harper Hall books. No matter how perfect the gene therapy, there will always be handicapped people.
That was from having worked in the drum tower for so many years. It wasn't genetic, it was an occupational hazard, just like Arnor going blind in the archives. Wansor also started going blind in his old age; possibly genetic that he would lose his sight, but he wasn't blind from birth.

Quote:
::winces at Brenda:: No reason the deaf, blind or Deafblind need to be a burden if there was someone around to teach them, even on Pern.
*backing up* I never said they would be an absolute burden - I admit I was mostly thinking of blindness, and I really don't think a blind person could live independently on Pern. A deaf person could definitely take up a craft, but would have difficulty communicating, and although not really a burden it would probably be an inconvenience to others to have to write things down or speak slowly to make lipreading easier. And while they could have a happy and fulfilling life, I don't know if it could be "normal" by Pernese standards - especially since music is so important.

There could probably be an interesting story about a blind person who was musically talented... and I remember a very good fanfic about a girl who was mute but who met Menolly, and Menolly's fire lizards started humming music that the girl had in her head, and she became a musician...
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Old Mar 28 2006, 03:39 PM   #28
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Sorry, didn't mean to come on strong, Brenda. I just don't know when to stop sometimes.
Yes, but even the deaf can feel vibrations. Sure they'd have to be able to hear at lest a little to pick up words, but if the resources are available the songs with lyrics could be written out. Else some harper would have to be determined enough to come up with an alternative...i've done that in one Weyr, deciding even Pern would have some sort of sign language and going from there. Also have a blind apprentice baker. He does have some vision but not that much. There's levels of blindness just as with deafness.
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Old Jul 3 2007, 12:53 AM   #29
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

When Ruth is hatched in DQ, somebody comments about an albino child who can't bear sunlight. I'm not sure whether albinism is a random genetic event or inheritable. I know it's linked to bad eyesight, but I suspect (without any medical or other knowledge) that the link between albinism and susceptibility to skin cancer or generally not being able to go out in the sun may be a myth. I live in Indonesia and albinism seems to be quite common here -- certainly more so than it seemed to be in Europe. I don't think I'd ever seen an albino person before I came here, but although you don't see them every day, they're certainly not so uncommon enough that everyone stares when they see them.

Actually, the slang term for Caucasian here literally means 'albino'.
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Old Jul 3 2007, 02:10 PM   #30
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

I'd also like to add something, if I may?

There are many ways in which a child may be born blind or deaf without it being necessarily genetic in structure. Similarly, on a world such as Pern where a large proportion of the population (who we don't see in the books except on rare occasion) must be close to subsistence-living or at least quite 'deprived', diet-related illnesses (incluidng those causing deafness or blindness) must strike the young frequently.

I should think that a child either born deaf or with severe visual limitations (or acquiring them later in childhood) would be better cared for in a Weyr. I can't imagine that many of the more backward holders out in the back woods or hills having much truck if a child was in some way 'impaired'. They *would* be seen as a burden in these cases. We should be careful about laying our own morals, judgements and politically correct views on to a world where they just can't play out the same way.

Our society is pretty unique in that in the last 30 years or so the provision of services for and attitudes toward deaf, blind and deafblind people have changed dramatically. Some would argue (quite well) that they haven't gone far enough, but that's neither here nor there.

But, yes, I agree that there could be all kinds of non-genetically-related 'handicaps' on Pern, just as in any other society. I don't think that a blind person would Impress, but I see no reason why a deaf person could not as long as they were as well adjusted and empathic as any of the other Candidates.

Colour blindness can also have a non-genetic cause. It's rarer though. But you have to wonder if the medical bods back on Terra who had been systematically winkling out and erasing genetic 'impairments' would have botheres with something that is relatively trivial as colour blindness. I wouldn't have thought that it would be much of a problem to anyone on Pern.
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Old Jul 3 2007, 04:04 PM   #31
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

I don't know... a color-blind dragonrider could lead to an awkward situation!
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Old Jul 3 2007, 05:17 PM   #32
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Not just diet, but illnesses. The Pernese equivalent of malaria or scarlet fever, perhaps.

ANd Brenda, the rider could always ask his dragon first! Being unable to see red wouldn't really be a problem \lthough, as there are no red dragons.
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Old Jul 3 2007, 08:42 PM   #33
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Old Uncle in Dragonsong is cared for despite having lost both his legs in an accident, and it seems to have happened quite some time ago. Most of those looking after him seem to think of it as rather a chore, but then it seems to be something girls in their young to mid teens are given to do and I can imagine teenage girls here and now looking on it in much the same way.

So, I suppose it would be assumed that someone who lost their sight or hearing because of illness or accident would be cared for, though no doubt what happened in individual cases varied at lot depending on the character of the people round them.

How this would translate into caring for someone born blind, deaf or without full use of their other physical or mental faculties I don't know. Again it probably varied from case to case depending on the character and resources of those involved. Some probably got smothered or abandoned somewhere, some were brought up to function as best they could in society.
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Old Jul 3 2007, 09:23 PM   #34
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

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Given that we already know that birth defects are possible (witness Camo from the Harper Hall series), .
Camo was not a birth defect but caused by the umblical cord being wrapped around his neck when he was born. He got too little air. It was an accident of birth not a defect.
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Old Jul 3 2007, 11:34 PM   #35
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

I'm re-reading Dragonsinger at the moment, and have just come across Master Oldive, who I'd completely forgotten about. Was he born a hunchback or did he damage his spine in some way?
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Old Jul 4 2007, 04:11 AM   #36
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Don't know about Oldive but I think he was born with the hump.

Nuella's blindness (Dragon's Kin) was hereditary, it says so in the book.
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Old Jul 4 2007, 05:54 AM   #37
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

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I'm re-reading Dragonsinger at the moment, and have just come across Master Oldive, who I'd completely forgotten about. Was he born a hunchback or did he damage his spine in some way?
I could be wrong, but I thought that he had fallen badly off a horse or something, and that had caused his 'deformity'? I could've just made that up or dreamt it or something .......

As for colour-blindness, it's only the message between eye and brain that is muddled. If a dragon were to put the image straight into the brain, then the rider would 'see' the colours as they are. And then for visualisation the rider would have to alter that mental image and project that to the dragon rather than remember an actual scene as seen with the faulty eyes. Maybe it could work!
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Old Jul 4 2007, 08:44 AM   #38
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

I don't see the Weyrs being the place to care for those with handicaps. Between their military role of protecting the planet and the care that goes into dragons, they don't have the time to be a dumping ground for those not cared for elsewhere.

I'd bet Anne's answer to the question would be that such defects are less common on Pern because of the selective genetic stock that colonized the planet, and those that are handicapped are generally well cared for -- at least in the larger holds and halls. In cotholds there is more potential for neglect and abuse.
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Old Jul 4 2007, 08:50 AM   #39
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

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I don't see the Weyrs being the place to care for those with handicaps. Between their military role of protecting the planet and the care that goes into dragons, they don't have the time to be a dumping ground for those not cared for elsewhere.

I'd bet Anne's answer to the question would be that such defects are less common on Pern because of the selective genetic stock that colonized the planet, and those that are handicapped are generally well cared for -- at least in the larger holds and halls. In cotholds there is more potential for neglect and abuse.
I didn't mean that Weyrs would be a 'dumping ground'. I just meant that anybody born in a Weyr would have a greater chance of being cared for and having a value than one born outside of that atmosphere.

As for the other, I repeat the statement that genetic blindness, deafness and deafblindness would be rare indeed, but that those people who are affected by diet or disease would occur naturally in any population, especially one that had limited dietary and medical knowledge and procedures.
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Old Jul 4 2007, 09:01 AM   #40
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Ah, I misunderstood! I would agree that those born naturally into the Weyr would receive good care and be valued.
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