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Old Jul 28 2005, 07:02 AM   #1
Hans
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Default Toric's age and family

There is, or rather was (has gone off topic in a rather interesting way; more about that elsewhere maybe...) a thread/discussion about Toric's age and children on the amcf board which I want to continue and expand on here if people are willing.

It started out with Something plainly asking for Toric's age and names and ages of his children (for fanfic? another interesting idea).

Bronze guessed 55-60 at te end of SoP... That book ends in PP 31 (stands for Present Pass, 31st Turn) which means 2539 non adjusted and 2553 AAT (stands for Aivas Adjusted Turns; which I generally don't use).
Since I deduced that Toric must have been born in 2483/2484 on the basis that he's 18 Turns old in 2502 (when he stands candidate for Ramoth's first clutch) that means he would be about 56 Turns old at the end of SoP (not bad Bronze! )

That however is his age in calendar Turns. We had a short discussion about how many Turns need to be added to that because Toric had gone to Southern between times with F'nor, T'bor, Kylara and their group. That group went between 10 Turns, to 2498 (they left in fourth-month 2508) but came back earlier than planned because of problems they had, very likely due to the fact they were alive in two places at the same time.

I originally thought we should add ten Turns to Toric's age because they had gone back ten Turns but Azarias rightfully pointed out this reasoning was faulty because they had returned earlier than intended. I have been thrown of the right thinking path by text and remarks found in Dragonflight:

Quote:
So, though ten Turns will have passed for you, three days only will elapse here. Lessa, your thought that the farm-bred might do better is well-taken.
That was when F'nor was about to go and when Lessa, F'lar and F'nor expected that he would stay there the full ten Turns.
I missed the importance of "compelled to bring forward" in the next quote, I think. Although the following quote clearly states they had left ten Turns ago. That is, I'm afraid, actually a newly found consistency error *sigh*

Quote:
Even as the five Weyrs had been settling around Ruatha Valley, F'nor had been compelled to bring forward in time his southern weyrfolk. They had all reached the end of endurance in double-time life, gratefully creeping back to quarters they had vacated two days and ten Turns ago.
So it seems F'nor et al, while they traveled 10 Turns back in time, were actually only there for four Turns, right? So there should be four Turns added to Toric's calender age, making him 60 Turns old?

(the Turns for leaving and coming back are taken from Sariel's Timeline)

In addition Mausey wrote that she had read somewhere that Toric had stayed on at Southern, something I could related to. I read it too, I knew and wrote about it in the Bloodline I made for Toric's family.
He can't have stayed on without returning to the Ninth Pass. That would have him living at two places in the same Turn by 2508 So he must have returned with the group to Benden and from there leave again in real time to Southern to start the "Southern Weyr for convalescents" (hang on, when was that decision made; I remember reading about it!). Anyway, Toric "stayed on at Southern" and we got proof from The Renegades of Pern (US paperback ed page 63):

Quote:
... he [Toric] had volunteered to follow F'nor in founding the timed Weyr in Southern, and had remained on when that project had been abandoned. Once he had established, with much hard work, his hold he had come back to Keroon and talked first Kevelon and Murda, then and Sharra into joining him. Their mother had been proud of Toric's achievement, but not of her children's desertion.
So, please read through this and - if you are so inclined, the Bloodline which I adapted to the current state of data - and give me your feedback, please.
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Old Jul 28 2005, 10:30 AM   #2
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Default Re: Toric's age and family

The book does say two days and TEN turns ago. Where do you get four turns out of that?

I'm confused.
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Old Jul 28 2005, 11:45 AM   #3
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Default Re: Toric's age and family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chertl
The book does say two days and TEN turns ago. Where do you get four turns out of that?

I'm confused.
It is thought they came back early, Chertl. They probably didn't stay the whole ten Turns.

Quote:
From Dragonflight:
"F’lar, it's not working out! You can't be alive in two times at once!" F'nor was exclaiming distractedly. He staggered against the wall, grabbing the sheer rock to hold himself upright. There were deep circles under his eyes, visible despite the tan. "I don't know how much longer we can last like this. We're all affected. Some days not as badly as others."
"I don't understand."
"Your dragons are all right," F'nor assured the Weyrleader with a bitter laugh. "It doesn't bother them. They keep all they wits about them. But their riders… all the weyrfolk… we're shadows, half alive, like dragonless men, part of us gone forever.
Except Kylara." His face contorted with intense dislike. "All she wants to do is go back and watch herself. The woman's egomania will destroy us all, I'm afraid."
His eyes suddenly lost focus, and he swayed wildly. His eyes widened, and his mouth fell open. "I can't stay. I'm here already. Too close.
Makes it twice as bad. But I had to warn you. I promise, F’lar, we'll stay as long as we can, but it won't be much longer ... so it won't be long enough, but we tried.
We tried!"
Before F’lar could move, the brown rider whirled and ran, half-crouched, from the room.
"But he hasn't gone yet" Lessa gasped. "He hasn't even gone yet"
And that was, as the quote say, F'nor, coming back to Benden before he even went Southern on the recon trip with Lessa!
Then, after the Lord Holders and Craftmasters meeting F'nor visits his brother again, but at that time (for F'nor earlier in time than his previously mentioned visit) everything seems to be still alright.
Next quote:
Quote:
EVEN AS the five Weyrs had been settling around Ruatha Valley, F'nor had been compelled to bring forward in time his southern weyrfolk. They had all reached the end of endurance in double-time life, gratefully creeping back to quarters they had vacated two days and ten Turns ago
Now this seems to indicate that they stayed the full ten Turns. But Azarias rightfully queried that, with Prideth laying only the one clutch (add to that the difficulty and stress of living in two places at the same time).
It seems not possible for Prideth and all those Weyrlings plus F'nor, T'bor etc. being at Southern for ten Turns with Prideth only prducing one clutch now, ca it?

Sigh... what we need is the calculation. One day real time = x days 10 Turns back, or x days 400 Turns back...

Good observation though Chertl, as I assumed Azarias had a good point and was thinking I would find textual evidence, which I actually can't. On the contrary.

So, what do others think?
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Old Jul 28 2005, 12:37 PM   #4
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Default Re: Toric's age and family

I think AMC was just trying to be clever with the "two days and ten turns ago" bit, which has a better ring to it than "two days and four turns". I think she completely overlooked the fact they didn't stay the full time - as everything else seems to indicate.

The fact that Pridith had only once clutch is really the clincher for me. that would be a hideous rate of clutching if they stayed the who ten turns, even allowing 2-3 turns for her to reach sexual maturity. She'd rival Nemorth for poorest clutching rate (Nemorth laid a total of 5 clutches in 33 turns, or one about every 8.25 turns). Nothing else in the books indicates Pridith to be such an infrequent riser. If this were true then Nemorth's poor clutching can't be blamed on Jora's fear of flying and sluggish tendancies, but on a problem of gold dragon instincts at the start of the 9th Pass.

If on the other hand, they were only there for four years, having one clutch is not so unreasonable, though I think it would indicate Pridith took a full three turns to mature, else I think she still should have risen more than once.

The four turn number (used in my timeline) is based on a quote about the herdbeasts having had 6 turns to multiply since the Southern project was abandoned. I can dig up the quote if you like!
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Old Jul 28 2005, 12:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: Toric's age and family

I got four Turns in the Southern continent from this quote:

" "There's the southern Weyr," F'nor suggested. "We've been gone from there six Turns in this time, and the herdbeasts were left. They'll have multiplied, and there'll be all that fruit and grain." "

p 341 (second to last chapter)(UK edition, Corgi, 1998)
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Old Jul 28 2005, 12:42 PM   #6
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Default Re: Toric's age and family

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheryl
The four turn number (used in my timeline) is based on a quote about the herdbeasts having had 6 turns to multiply since the Southern project was abandoned. I can dig up the quote if you like!
Just reposted the that quote that I posted in the original thread at amcf
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Old Jul 28 2005, 12:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: Toric's age and family

That'd be the one, thanks Cris!
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Old Jul 28 2005, 03:35 PM   #8
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Default Re: Toric's age and family

Yes, Cheryl, C_ris posted that one on AMCF, but...

I now think the six Turns quote might just be made three days after F'nor returned from Southern? Meaning that the beasts they left would have grown fat over 3 days=6 Turns (because 2 days=4 Turns)?

If so, your math would be off, although I still completely agree with you because of the fact Prideth clutched only once!
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Old Jul 29 2005, 09:42 AM   #9
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Default Re: Toric's age and family

I always got the impression that F'nor was still younger than F'nor- but at the beginning its definitely not more than 10 turns- F'lars abot 30 but F'nor's not in his teens. If you use MHOP its 3 yrs dif but I've never liked that-it doesn't seem to add up!
Therefore its not 10 yrs-its the time taken for a thread score to heal as thats the latest timing visit from F'nor we see and its almost gone.
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Old Jul 29 2005, 10:47 AM   #10
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Default Re: Toric's age and family

Hans, I don't know why you think there should be some sort of calculation/ratio that equates time passed at Benden Weyr (the two-three days) with the number of years that were spent at Southern. With going between times, F'nor and co. had free reign as to when they returned, as long as they made sure not to meet themselves coming/going. They could have returned two days later or 5 days or 50 days (assuming they could work out a proper timing clue to between to those times).
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Old Jul 29 2005, 12:03 PM   #11
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Default Re: Toric's age and family

Yes, I was going to try and say something like that. The only reason he came so soon - before they had even left, and two days after - was because he knew that they only had a matter of days before Thread fell again.
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Old Mar 14 2006, 03:02 PM   #12
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Default Re: Toric's age and family

I found this very interesting. I found these quotes:

SoP online:

"You're getting old, Father," Besic said. He handed Toric a steaming mug. "Mother's compliments."

RoP online:

"Leave on that filthy trader, Toric—” His father rose as his eighteen-year-old son strode to the hall door, scooping his weather-gear off its peg. “Leave,” he bellowed, “and you will have neither hall nor hold, and all men’s hands will be turned against you. I’ll have the harpers read it!”

So, if Toric's 18 then (8 years after Fax conquered), he was 10 when Fax did conquer, he was almost 23 when Lessa and Ramoth went back in time to see themselves in DF......can someone help?
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