Golds prefer holder girls?

[Multi-Facets]

I've seen that sentiment repeated off and on through the books. Where'd that idea come from, d'ya think?

[Kath]

Aside from Anne seemingly preferring her female characters to not be as sexually liberated as most womenfolk in the Weyrs are?

I'd put it down to statistics. There're FAR more eligible women of the right age for a gold egg out on the rest of Pern than there are in a single Weyr. Of course there'll be more outside candidates, and a greater chance they'll Impress.

[starbuck]

Originally Posted by Kath

Aside from Anne seemingly preferring her female characters to not be as sexually liberated as most womenfolk in the Weyrs are?

Yeah, differently there will be no intrigue and dramas

[GHarris]

Well, if we go on the theory, that the hatchling can read read people's minds or look for a suitable mind, than a holder girl may make more sense.

1. Holder girls are brought up in an environment where managing one's resources is the most important thing for the family.
2. For a gold, they have to be able to manage the Weyr successfully.
3. Weyr girls are at a disadvantage in this regard, as the mothers who do the most managing normally have to foster their children, and don't really have time to be the foster parent for other children (with the notable exception of Brekke/Mirrim).

GH

[P'ter]

Of course the bronze riders prefer older bolder holder girls

[semantre]

Originally Posted by P'ter

Of course the bronze riders prefer older bolder holder girls

Hah!

I think it is important to note that this is a preference indicated through speech between characters/characters ruminating on the idea. It may simply be a skewed perception, which in turn lead to an emphasis on Searching women from outside the Weyrs, or vice versa. After all, we see /very/ few Weyrbred women on the sands and we have no way of knowing which came first - the prevalence of hold-bred women Impressing, or the thought that golds prefer hold-bred girls.

[Eriflor]

Definitely statistics, as Kath said.

The average Weyr has a few hundred dragonriders (99% male by the Ninth Pass and probably much earlier than that), a handful of in-Weyr crafters, and a smallish non-rider population to do the cooking and other necessary work. They keep the size of their families down by abortion, and 50% percent of the surviving children would normally be boys. The goldriders lose most of their pregnancies (and their genetic contribution) due to going between so much --- and half their kids would be boys too.

So you have a non-rider population equivalent to a fairly small Hold, plus a few hundred spare males, half of whom may be homosexual, and the other half are fooling around with a series of short-term girl-friends out in the Holds. So it's quite a small pool to choose from.

Actually, maybe that notion about gold dragons preferring holder girls is just an excuse to bring in a few new girl-friends. And if you bring in the girl who Impresses the latest queen, you might have a better shot at Weyrleader later on (especially if you have a few days to -- umm -- influence her before the Hatching).

[edith]

There's also the possibility that in unscrupulous, arrogant weyrs that the collection of girls is a status statement along the lines of "We are taking your best and most beautiful girls and there's nothing you can do about it because we're the only ones between you and almost certain death (from starvation if not threadscore) and if you refuse we might just stop!".

[Multi-Facets]

I hadn't thought of all that. I bet y'all are right.

[Anareth]

Except...even by the time of Dragonseye/RSR, relatively early, the fact that Zulaya (name? I don't have my copy) is Weyr-bred is notable in its unusualness. So well before there was a serious dearth of women candidates, queens were apparently showing a hold-bred preference often enough for a contrary choice to be noteworthy.

[D. M. Domini]

I can't exactly cite anything specific, but for some reason I recall something about it having to do with bringing new *human* genes into the Weyr.

I may be wrong. But even if I'm mis-remembering...hey, it's a theory, I suppose?

With small clutches in between Passes, I bet most of the non-Queen eggs go to weyr-bred lads. How does new blood get into the Weyrs if nobody is Searching candidates outside of the Weyr? There's a few hold-bred and craft-bred lads every now and then, and more frequently during a Pass, but if the majority of a clutch is made up of blue or green eggs, they probably have a bi or gay bent which means they might not be fathering too many children. So new *human* blood could in theory be fairly restricted in certain Turns and Passes, and what blood "made it in" via the males might not get passed on.

If the rider of the Queen dragons are often Holder bred, they A) would have been in a life before where they expected to be wedded and give birth to lots of babies anyway once they're adult, so may be more apt to having children as a Queen rider, B) the Queen riders will get caught up in the mating flight every time their Queen flies, so have ample chances to get pregnant (and would be more likely to keep the child/children if they're Hold bred, right? Particularly in Passes where Queen riders didn't actually ride their dragons where going between at a wrong time could terminate the embryo?), and C) since their Queen is actually laying fertile eggs (unlike with a Green), that may enhance maternal feelings in the rider, again prodding them towards having a kid or several.

So a Holder girl on a Queen is a surer bet than a holder male on "refreshing" the human gene pool.

I know this isn't my theory...but I can't remember if it was something in the books, or something on a fansite that touched on this explanation.

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Anareth

Except...even by the time of Dragonseye/RSR, relatively early, the fact that Zulaya (name? I don't have my copy) is Weyr-bred is notable in its unusualness. So well before there was a serious dearth of women candidates, queens were apparently showing a hold-bred preference often enough for a contrary choice to be noteworthy.

Even so, pure statistics WILL favour the Holds.

[Kath]

Originally Posted by D. M. Domini

I can't exactly cite anything specific, but for some reason I recall something about it having to do with bringing new *human* genes into the Weyr.

I may be wrong. But even if I'm mis-remembering...hey, it's a theory, I suppose?

...

If the rider of the Queen dragons are often Holder bred, they A) would have been in a life before where they expected to be wedded and give birth to lots of babies anyway once they're adult, so may be more apt to having children as a Queen rider, B) the Queen riders will get caught up in the mating flight every time their Queen flies, so have ample chances to get pregnant (and would be more likely to keep the child/children if they're Hold bred, right? Particularly in Passes where Queen riders didn't actually ride their dragons where going between at a wrong time could terminate the embryo?), and C) since their Queen is actually laying fertile eggs (unlike with a Green), that may enhance maternal feelings in the rider, again prodding them towards having a kid or several.

So a Holder girl on a Queen is a surer bet than a holder male on "refreshing" the human gene pool.

I know this isn't my theory...but I can't remember if it was something in the books, or something on a fansite that touched on this explanation.

Even so, there aren't that many women in this position at any one time in a given Weyr.

If you want to refresh the gene pool, I'd be more inclined to look at bastards like Mirrim - dragonrider spawn that gets sent to the Weyr. An extra boy may always be useful in a Hold, but a bastard girl that you'd need to marry off somehow? Heck, if her mother shamed herself that badly, why not pack them both off to the Weyr? And I'm sure there are plenty of bronze and brown riders that search out girls for their own purposes, even without a clutch on the sands. Way more numbers this way - and they don't need to worry about losing kids as a rider.

[GinnyStar]

Kath

'd put it down to statistics. There're FAR more eligible women of the right age for a gold egg out on the rest of Pern than there are in a single Weyr. Of course there'll be more outside candidates, and a greater chance they'll Impress.

There was something in DQ about a male green rider bring in holder and them not wanted to abort that they have problems with housing them. Also the easier life in the Weyr if they don't impress. Moreta was thinking of her non rider kids, if they wanted to hold land to continue her bloodline in Keroon.

In early time was before the Second Weyr and other have food all the time. Some stuff be supplied by Fort Hold, and hunting dragons south, the space, too many in the early holds?

Just some radom things taht come to mind.

[Chimaerrha]

Here's the quote.

DQ on.:

Manora thinks she can save P’ratan’s good looks but we’ll have to wait and see about his eye.” She paused to take a deep breath. “Which is just as well because if he doesn’t stop raiding Holds for new lovers, we won’t be able to foster all the babies. Those holdbred girls are convinced it’s evil to abort.”

This probably is the passage someone mentioned.

D'E on.:

But then, she was Fort Weyrbred, a linear
descendant of one of the First Riders, Aliana Zuleita, and knew things.
It was odd how the golden queens always seemed to prefer women from
outside the Weyrs, but sometimes a queen had a mind of her own and chose
a Weyrbred woman in spite of what had become custom.

Interesting passages:

DQ on.:

It never troubled Kylara that even after nine Turns in a Weyr and seven Turns as a Weyrwoman herself, she could not have given the criteria by which one candidate was accepted by a dragon and another, discernibly as worthy, was rejected by an entire Hatching. Nor why the queens invariably chose women raised outside the Weyr. (For instance, at the time that boy-thing Brekke had Impressed Wirenth, there had been three other girls, any of whom Kylara would have thought considerably more interesting to a dragonette queen. But Wirenth had made a skyline directly to the craftbred girl. The three rejected candidates had remained at Southern Weyr — any girl in her right mind would — and one of them, Varena, had been presented at the next queen Impression and taken. One simply couldn’t judge.) Generally speaking, weyrbred lads were always acceptable at one Hatching or another, for a weyrboy could attend Hatchings until he was in his twentieth Turn.

Oh, no,” and Brekke looked startled. I meant — oh, I don’t know what I meant. I love Wirenth, but can’t you understand? I’m not weyrbred. I don’t have that kind of — of — wantonness in my nature. I’m — I’m inhibited. There! I said it.

DF on.:

Dragon tradition started out as a guide . . . but there comes a time when man becomes too traditional, too-what was it you said?-too hidebound? Yes, it's traditional to use the weyrbred, because it's been convenient. And because this sensitivity to dragons strengthens where both sire and dam are weyrbred. That doesn't mean weyrbred is best. You, for example..."

Some summaries:

Some Holder girls that Impressed queens:
Lessa, Kylara, Talina, Fiona

Craftbred:
Brekke, Breda, Lorana

[GinnyStar]

@ Chimaerrha thanks for the quotes

Some summaries:

Some Holder girls that Impressed queens:
Lessa, Kylara, Talina, Fiona <sinp>

Craftbred:
Brekke, Breda, Lorana
Moreta Runer beast-breed Hold who Orlith waited for her to come to Ista Weyr, the day she hatched.

Lerri was Fort Weyr I think I'm not too sure

[Anareth]

Leri's origin is a little unclear--at one point, she says in essence she's always been at Fort (though that doesn't indicate if she's spent her entire life AS HOLTH'S RIDER there or if she herself was Weyrbred), at another, Moreta indicates Holth is Orlith's dam, but we know Moreta Impressed at Ista.

Non-Weyrbred, discounting those from the First Pass: Lessa, Brekke, Talina, Kylara, Moreta, Oklina, Moreta II (daughter of Alessan and Nerilka), Mardra

(Of note: Lessa, Talina (iirc), Oklina, Moreta II and Mardra are all Ruathan.)

Weyrbred, that we know of: Zulaya (a descendant of one of the first dragonriders)

[GinnyStar]

Found my copy of Moreta's Ride a pair of books Moreta Dragonlady of Pern and Nerilka's Story, from Science Fiction Book Club ISBN 0-7394-5192-8
Dalova Sr. Weyrwoman Igen Weyr is from Big Bay Hold, Igen (Igen Sea Hold) For she and Moreta talked both about the needs of a queen egg and 'timing' for the project. She had lost a lot of blood kin there. I was thinking of her and somehow got the gold mix up being

I don't know how might this going to work but here http://books.google.com/books?id=Zxm...20Weyr&f=false

Leri adamantly refused, declaring that she wasn't a tunnel snake to change her skin. She'd been born in Fort Weyr

its the one I recall about her and using a tunnel snake, and they got skin.

[LadyDeerskin]

all the above are good points, but aside from bringing in new genes into a rather closed pool, etc, one thing that Search dragons look for are girls with strong telepathy and telempathy. that is pointed out, though not with that name, from the first book on, with Lessa's ability to contact other dragons, her manipulating emotions and actions, and the like. the strongest-referred to most often as 'the best'- Weyrwomen have all had these abilities, some more so than others. Search dragons seem to take note of girls, and somtimes boys, not only during the time leading up to a Hatching, but between them as well, as if mentally marking them to come back for later....odd, considering they dont have much memory of past events.

i wish i could cite books and passages, but my kids have rumbled through my shelves this summer, and i cant find all my books. nice to have them read and shared, but i wish they got put back where they were...we have, last count was about 15 years ago, over 12,000 books and magazines, so putting things back is a big deal in our family!^_^

[Anareth]

Except if such girls are consistently Searched and brought into the Weyr populations (and it's implied in later passes at least most girl who are Searched either don't want to leave the Weyr, whether they Impress or not, or aren't welcome back at their previous homes if they don't as they've been 'sullied' by those liscentious dragonriders) wouldn't that mean eventually those genes and therefore traits would be concentrated in the Weyr? You have exception lines like the Ruathan blood, which is cross-polinated with the dragonriders all the way back to Sean and Sorka, with a 'reinfusion' via B'lerion and Oklina's children after Moreta's time, all the way through Lessa and Aramina. But logically the more you bring those girls to the Weyr, the more likely you are to have the trait pop up in their children, not outside.

[AnnMarie]

UNLESS...it trait is something passed through the male line, Anareth. Rather like the hemopheliac gene...it is passed by the mother, not the father. Males are more likely to actually HAVE it, but the females are the carriers.

[Eriflor]

Originally Posted by Anareth

Except if such girls are consistently Searched and brought into the Weyr populations (and it's implied in later passes at least most girl who are Searched either don't want to leave the Weyr, whether they Impress or not, or aren't welcome back at their previous homes if they don't as they've been 'sullied' by those liscentious dragonriders) wouldn't that mean eventually those genes and therefore traits would be concentrated in the Weyr? You have exception lines like the Ruathan blood, which is cross-polinated with the dragonriders all the way back to Sean and Sorka, with a 'reinfusion' via B'lerion and Oklina's children after Moreta's time, all the way through Lessa and Aramina. But logically the more you bring those girls to the Weyr, the more likely you are to have the trait pop up in their children, not outside.

Except that theoretically they're only bringing in a handful of possible goldriders (some of them really as possible fur-mates brought in on the excuse of a Search) when there's a gold egg in the clutch, not every time there's a clutch.

And I don't think all the families write off the girls as soon as they get Searched, because they want them to marry and take up their land-grant alongside the family Hold. Brekke had been with the Weyr for a couple of turns when the Masterfarmer said the craft-hall wouldn't take her back.

[semantre]

Originally Posted by Eriflor

Except that theoretically they're only bringing in a handful of possible goldriders (some of them really as possible fur-mates brought in on the excuse of a Search) when there's a gold egg in the clutch, not every time there's a clutch.

And I don't think all the families write off the girls as soon as they get Searched, because they want them to marry and take up their land-grant alongside the family Hold. Brekke had been with the Weyr for a couple of turns when the Masterfarmer said the craft-hall wouldn't take her back.

The Masterfarmer never said they wouldn't take her back. He specifically said "It would be hard for her to live simply again." I always read that as a willingness to accept her if she felt she couldn't remain at the Weyr, but also an acknowledgement of the differences between the ways of life and that, once someone is accustomed to Weyr life, going back to a Hall or Hold would be difficult.

[Kath]

Originally Posted by AnnMarie

UNLESS...it trait is something passed through the male line, Anareth. Rather like the hemopheliac gene...it is passed by the mother, not the father. Males are more likely to actually HAVE it, but the females are the carriers.

If it's something that females CAN express genetically (i.e. not something that the other x-chromosome will overrule with the standard sequences), then that wouldn't really work - female Weyrbred descendants should have a good chance of expressing the same factors, and you'd see a boosting of those traits in the Weyr. Even if it IS on a completely recessive set of genes, adding a double-carrier to the Weyr's genepool is still going to increase the chances of more of the same further down the line.

[Eriflor]

Originally Posted by semantre

The Masterfarmer never said they wouldn't take her back. He specifically said "It would be hard for her to live simply again." I always read that as a willingness to accept her if she felt she couldn't remain at the Weyr, but also an acknowledgement of the differences between the ways of life and that, once someone is accustomed to Weyr life, going back to a Hall or Hold would be difficult.

Three paragraphs before that quote, Lessa said,

"Brekke . . . may, if she chooses, return to her home . . ."

"No!" The Masterfarmer was definite about that.

Lessa was a little surprised at such vehemence . . . She'd had the notion from Andemon's [previous] attitude that perhaps her Craft wanted her back.

Then Andemon said that it would be hard for her to live simply again. And she wasn't just any dragonless rider, she'd been a goldrider, so he'd view her as having lived in relative luxury for some time.

So basically her fellow-crafters were concerned about her well-being, but thought she'd have developed unconventional attitudes and expensive tastes, and wouldn't fit in any more. And to go back as an apprentice (the only option at a craft-hall, unless she was already a journeywoman when Searched, or was willing to be a headwoman or drudge) she'd have needed the Craftmaster's permission, and would really have had to fit in.

[GinnyStar]

Originally Posted by Anareth

Leri's origin is a little unclear--at one point, she says in essence she's always been at Fort (though that doesn't indicate if she's spent her entire life AS HOLTH'S RIDER there or if she herself was Weyrbred), at another, Moreta indicates Holth is Orlith's dam, but we know Moreta Impressed at Ista.

Non-Weyrbred, discounting those from the First Pass: Lessa, Brekke, Talina, Kylara, Moreta, Oklina, Moreta II (daughter of Alessan and Nerilka), Mardra

(Of note: Lessa, Talina (iirc), Oklina, Moreta II and Mardra are all Ruathan.)

Weyrbred, that we know of: Zulaya (a descendant of one of the first dragonriders)

Sep 16 2010 04:37 PM
GinnyStar
Re: Golds prefer holder girls?
Found my copy of Moreta's Ride a pair of books Moreta Dragonlady of Pern and Nerilka's Story, from Science Fiction Book Club ISBN 0-7394-5192-8
Dalova Sr. Weyrwoman Igen Weyr is from Big Bay Hold, Igen (Igen Sea Hold) For she and Moreta talked both about the needs of a queen egg and 'timing' for the project. She had lost a lot of blood kin there. I was thinking of her and somehow got the gold mix up being

I don't know how might this going to work but here http://books.google.com/books?id=Zxm...20Weyr&f=false
Quote:
Leri adamantly refused, declaring that she wasn't a tunnel snake to change her skin. She'd been born in Fort Weyr
its the one I recall about her and using a tunnel snake, and they got skin.

She said she was born at Fort Weyr and wouldn't leave even with the long standing invitation to move to Ista Weyr, which would have helped her join problem.

[Anareth]

Except that brings up the inconsistency about Orlith's parentage--according to one comment, Orlith is Holth's daughter, but Orlith was also hatched at Ista.

But that would put Leri into the Weyrbred category.

Also, if it's a male trait (though as Kath points out there's a genetics problem then) the girls' SONS should carry the trait and pass it to their Weyrbred offspring, which should logically include girls. Plus, setting aside the land contracts cease to be an issue eventually (the system for granting land went out with the memory of the Charter and with the development of a pseudo-feudal society) even if the family wanted the girl back, that's conditional on her wanting to leave! Especially during a Pass when tithes are easier to come by, life in a Weyr is more comfortable than life in a hold, and as several female rider characters point out at different times a girl in a Weyr isn't expected to keep bearing children as long as she's capable.

This of course also assumes something that at least in DF doesn't appear to be true--that most gold candidates are sincerely Searched as potential choices for the egg. Of the group selected by bronze riders for Ramoth's Hatching, we know Lessa and Kylara actually Impress, indicating they did have the potential (whatever genetics/mental traits are required.) Of the other girls, does anyone else? Obviously not the the one critically injured/killed, but it's also possible that for some stretches in Pern history most of the girls being Searched weren't being Searched carefully, leaving more potential in Holder/Crafter population.

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Kath

Even so, pure statistics WILL favour the Holds.

I'm going to repeat myself again, because we really, really DON'T need any special arguments whatsoever. Just the simplest possible assumptions.

In fact, I'm not even going to deal with assumptions. I'm going to deal with facts.

Here they are:

[1] Goldworthiness is a rare trait
[2] The Hold/Craft population is SUBSTANTIALLY larger than that of a single Weyr.
[3] Regardless of whether certain family lines/daughters of dragonrider blood have a higher incidence of goldworthiness or not, they're going to be vastly outnumbered by equally well qualified/goldworthy girls from the rest of Pern's population.


Weyrbred girls aren't pre-selected in a specific Search for a gold egg, and they will be outnumbered on the sands. Look at those two things together. As an indvidual, their odds are worse than those of another individual girl, and as part of a group the gold is most likely to choose a girl from the larger, hold/craft-bred sample. Even if you boost their chances of Impressing, by saying they've got dragonrider blood already, or know better how to behave in an attractive manner on the sands, they're still outnumbered five or ten to one, most likely. How many golds are clutched in a lifetime anyway? The Weyrs have a pretty stable population, so a [normal, i.e. NOT Ramoth...] Queen shouldn't really average more than a couple of daughters in her entire breeding lifespan. You could easily be born, live and die in the Weyr and not see a single gold egg Impress to a local girl, and need NOTHING more than statistical likelihood to account for it.

[Chimaerrha]

Also, Palla, Weyrwoman of Telgar in the 9th Pass, is craftbred or, at least, served as an apprentice to Wansor.

[Eriflor]

Holder/crafter girls are brought in on Search relatively frequently during a Pass, much less frequently during an Interval (which normally lasts 4 times as long as a Pass).

Meanwhile the male dragon-riders are out there seeking sexual partners in the holds and crafts during both Passes and Intervals, thereby spreading their genes throughout the general population.

Eriflor.

[Chimaerrha]

Originally Posted by Eriflor

Holder/crafter girls are brought in on Search relatively frequently during a Pass, much less frequently during an Interval (which normally lasts 4 times as long as a Pass).

Meanwhile the male dragon-riders are out there seeking sexual partners in the holds and crafts during both Passes and Intervals, thereby spreading their genes throughout the general population.

Eriflor.

We don't have any evidence that male dragonriders frequently seek out partners outside of the Weyr. Yes, we have the case of P'ratan, but how do we know that is the case all the time? R'gul and co. do it, too, but they bring the women to the Weyr, presumably keeping any resulting children in the Weyr and not spreading their genes throughout the general population, but in the Weyr.

[skywaterblue]

If you're really desperate to get those rider genes back out to the populace (which actually is pretty important in those early Passes) then I would look to the young men who don't Impress. They're said to frequently leave rather than stay in the lower caverns.

[Eriflor]

Originally Posted by Chimaerrha

We don't have any evidence that male dragonriders frequently seek out partners outside of the Weyr. Yes, we have the case of P'ratan, but how do we know that is the case all the time? R'gul and co. do it, too, but they bring the women to the Weyr, presumably keeping any resulting children in the Weyr and not spreading their genes throughout the general population, but in the Weyr.

Riders bring young women to the Weyr if they find them while on Search (along with a few they fancy for themselves). In recent Passes at least, the holders don't have to let their daughters go to the Weyr if there isn't a gold egg on the sands --- they'd lose their land allotment.

There's a mention that a Lord Holder (Raid?) objected to his chattels bearing dragon-seed, but that might just mean that the child would be either fostered at the Weyr or taken on Search later on, instead of working on the Lord's Hold. Taking the mother to the Weyr would be an economic burden.

[Chimaerrha]

Originally Posted by Eriflor

Riders bring young women to the Weyr if they find them while on Search (along with a few they fancy for themselves). In recent Passes at least, the holders don't have to let their daughters go to the Weyr if there isn't a gold egg on the sands --- they'd lose their land allotment.

There's a mention that a Lord Holder (Raid?) objected to his chattels bearing dragon-seed, but that might just mean that the child would be either fostered at the Weyr or taken on Search later on, instead of working on the Lord's Hold. Taking the mother to the Weyr would be an economic burden.

That's not the point I was trying to make. You were saying male dragonriders often took women for their pleasure. That's probable sometimes, but it's not the rule and it doesn't seem to always have been the case. Riders don't always bring women they fancy to the Weyr; they seem to have done so in the Second Long Interval and the 9th Pass.

[Chimaerrha]

Originally Posted by Eriflor

Riders bring young women to the Weyr if they find them while on Search (along with a few they fancy for themselves). In recent Passes at least, the holders don't have to let their daughters go to the Weyr if there isn't a gold egg on the sands --- they'd lose their land allotment.

There's a mention that a Lord Holder (Raid?) objected to his chattels bearing dragon-seed, but that might just mean that the child would be either fostered at the Weyr or taken on Search later on, instead of working on the Lord's Hold. Taking the mother to the Weyr would be an economic burden.

Yes, they bring girls to the Weyr, but we haven't seen girls being Searched to be green riders yet. That'd be intriguing.

[Eriflor]

They didn't (as far as we can tell) have female greenriders in the 6th and 8th Passes, or in the 9th Pass until Mirrim (and even after Mirrim I suspect they weren't actually Searched for greenriders).

I'm not sure about 1st Pass, but girls were Searched for greenriders in 2nd and 3rd, and whichever Pass "Ever the Twain" took place in. Or at least it was accepted that some of those rejected by a gold hatchling would Impress greens, which isn't quite the same thing.

Eriflor.

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Eriflor

I'm not sure about 1st Pass, but girls were Searched for greenriders in 2nd and 3rd, and whichever Pass "Ever the Twain" took place in. Or at least it was accepted that some of those rejected by a gold hatchling would Impress greens, which isn't quite the same thing.

They definitely had female greenriders in the first Pass, and would have Searched for them specifically in the same way as they Searched for riders for the other colours - it was male greenriders that were the minority (i.e. nonexistent) at first, and they made a specific shift to go looking for male riders later on because of the advantages of male riders not conceiving (as well as keeping the single gay male bluerider happy).

Because obviously contraception was the first technological advance that a modern society would choose to lose... (And we won't even start on how crazy it is that the sexual orientation and gender of your human dragonlust partner matters more than them not necessarily being a person of your choosing, even if the basic sexual preferences do line up. If stand-ins were optional for them, they ought to be optional for the male riders, too. Every single female rider got to deal with that issue (except the lesbians, who apparently don't exist in that Pass), and I can't imagine that they were 100% happy about it, even post facto.)

[Chimaerrha]

Originally Posted by Eriflor

They didn't (as far as we can tell) have female greenriders in the 6th and 8th Passes, or in the 9th Pass until Mirrim (and even after Mirrim I suspect they weren't actually Searched for greenriders).

I'm not sure about 1st Pass, but girls were Searched for greenriders in 2nd and 3rd, and whichever Pass "Ever the Twain" took place in. Or at least it was accepted that some of those rejected by a gold hatchling would Impress greens, which isn't quite the same thing.

Eriflor.

They definitely search for greenriders in D'Eye. I didn't mean they searched for female greenriders in later Passes, just that it would be interesting to see that.

[Eriflor]

I wonder when female greenriders became not merely unusual but 'unthinkable'? You'd think there would always be the odd one to Impress a green when the gold didn't want her --- even if they decided not to Search girls when there wasn't a gold egg.

Guess it's just a plot-hole.

I wish somebody would write a novel on the second half of the first Long Interval. Think how Pern society must have changed when they didn't have to worry about Threadfall any more. I bet there were a lot of changes in the rules when Thread returned after 400 turns without it. Bans on timing, girl greenriders, greens having clutches, hold-grabbing Lords, goodness knows what else.

Eriflor.

[skywaterblue]

Contraception doesn't make sense for the colonists to bring, frankly, aside from the civil rights issues. I wouldn't be surprised if Governor Boll had pulled a President Roslin shortly after the First Fall. They had a founding population of six thousand, with an unknown but sizable minority of traveling folk, and they lost a substantial portion of those people within the first year of Fall. And that's before the Fever Year.

On the other hand, a substantial portion of Pern's population in 9 AL would have been under the age of eight. There was probably a move to shove some of those kids in front of eggs as soon as they were considered able, simply to fill the age stopgap* and to get them doing something useful for colonial survival. (In particular, don't we hear mention of how Search overrides previous obligations simply because they were losing so many dragonets at Hatching for lack of choice? Available bodies of the right ages makes for a grim probability statistic.)

* Dragonsdawn notes that there's enough kids of Sorka's age to make a school, but not so many that Sorka isn't seeking Sean out because they're among the few colonists of the same age. Hence, we can assume the population at the ideal age to Impress eight years later is actually pretty thin. Especially when discussing twenty reproductive queens.