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Old Sep 24 2007, 05:32 PM   #1
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Default Eye Facets

In SOP octagonal facets are mentioned. However, they don't tessellate.
Is this an anneism: hexagons maybe?
I'm not sure that they're mentioned elsewhere!
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Old Sep 25 2007, 11:21 AM   #2
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For some reason my brain always wants a "tesseration" to be a "tesseract"...

I'd guess it would be a hexagon, though.
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Old Sep 25 2007, 02:01 PM   #3
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In SOP octagonal facets are mentioned. However, they don't tessellate.
Is this an anneism: hexagons maybe?
I'm not sure that they're mentioned elsewhere!
I have tried to "pack" octagons to get a facet model and for comparizon I also inserted the hexagon-formed pattern which seems to be more rational. That's what I've got:
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Old Sep 25 2007, 03:08 PM   #4
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No: as Amaterasu has shown, octogons do not tessalate (unless you put small squares in the holes).

The problem with hexagons is that while they DO tessalate, if they are pure six-way symmetrical ones (3 x node to opposite node & 3 x edge midpoint to opposite midpoint) they only tessalate as a FLAT plane. To make them into a domed shape you need a mixture of hexagons and pentagons (cf Bucky Fuller's geodetic domes)
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Old Sep 25 2007, 03:31 PM   #5
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The problem with hexagons is that while they DO tessalate, if they are pure six-way symmetrical ones (3 x node to opposite node & 3 x edge midpoint to opposite midpoint) they only tessalate as a FLAT plane. To make them into a domed shape you need a mixture of hexagons and pentagons (cf Bucky Fuller's geodetic domes)
Yes, I know what you mean. Fullerene C60 (a real molecule) is constracted in this way (we even have it at our lab store). But the facet hexagons must not be flat.
Wow! I found an example!
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Old Sep 25 2007, 03:35 PM   #6
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The other way of achieving this is by using distorted hexagons which aren't 6-way symmetrical
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Old Sep 25 2007, 03:37 PM   #7
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Sorry, I have introduced a link for the example in my previous message.
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Old Sep 25 2007, 05:15 PM   #8
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Yeah, but if you look very carefully there are some pentagons in there AND some distorted hexagons
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Old Sep 25 2007, 06:00 PM   #9
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Default Re: Eye Facets

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Yes, I know what you mean. Fullerene C60 (a real molecule) is constracted in this way (we even have it at our lab store). But the facet hexagons must not be flat.
Wow! I found an example!
Beautiful!
I've seen a model of a bucky ball I think. Chemistry is the science I've studied least (and here's me wanting to get into materials now (I didn't when I picked my A-levels))
I'm going to have to get some plasticine!
What shape are the facets in insect eyes? Does anyone know?
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Old Sep 25 2007, 09:11 PM   #10
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While we are on the subject of eyes, has anyone come up with a good explanation for the fact that they glow in the dark, change colors and appear to "whirl" according to the dragon's state of mind?
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Old Sep 26 2007, 04:02 AM   #11
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Haven't got that far yet!
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Old Sep 26 2007, 04:21 AM   #12
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The glow in the dark bit could be because the retina is highly reflective like a cat's.

As for the changing colour: Hollywood is experimenting with a 3-D filming technique using a projector running at 144 fps, rather than the usual 72, and projecting alternating frames polarised vertically and horizontally.

The dragons, having hexagonal eye facets, could polarise in three directions giving them extremely fine 3-D vision, needed in flight, and the reflected light from the retina would show 3 different colours. If they can 'switch on' combinations as well as singles then they would have a selection of 8 eye 'colours'.

The whirling effect would be from running sequential changes (denoting uncertainty) rather than a definite change of every cell (denoting certainty)
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Old Sep 26 2007, 05:13 AM   #13
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The example which I posted before is a real eye of Antarktic krill which was imaged by electron microscope! It could be considered as a prototype of dragon facet eyes. Sorry, I didn't have enough time to write explaination yesterday, when I have looked in wiki for real facet eyes and found that one.
Here is a reference for fullerene structure (you can see pentagons condensed together with hexagonic cycles).
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Old Sep 26 2007, 05:35 AM   #14
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Yeah, but if you look very carefully there are some pentagons in there AND some distorted hexagons
That is true! I don't really know if these "defects" existed in reality (why not? ) or are just mistakes of the measurement.

Do dragon eyes glow in Between? I don't remember if this was mentioned somewhere. If not then the hypothesis of "cat eyes similarity" suggested by P'ter is a wonderful explaination. "3D vision"!

I didn't hear about 3D filming. First that came in my mind were liquid crystals
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Old Sep 26 2007, 09:14 PM   #15
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The glow in the dark bit could be because the retina is highly reflective like a cat's.

As for the changing colour: Hollywood is experimenting with a 3-D filming technique using a projector running at 144 fps, rather than the usual 72, and projecting alternating frames polarised vertically and horizontally.

The dragons, having hexagonal eye facets, could polarise in three directions giving them extremely fine 3-D vision, needed in flight, and the reflected light from the retina would show 3 different colours. If they can 'switch on' combinations as well as singles then they would have a selection of 8 eye 'colours'.

The whirling effect would be from running sequential changes (denoting uncertainty) rather than a definite change of every cell (denoting certainty)
Makes sense to me!

Only one thing, though, about the glow in the dark bit, cat's eyes only shine when they are hit by light at just the right angle.
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Old Sep 27 2007, 12:18 AM   #16
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Beautiful!
I've seen a model of a bucky ball I think. Chemistry is the science I've studied least (and here's me wanting to get into materials now (I didn't when I picked my A-levels))
I'm going to have to get some plasticine!
What shape are the facets in insect eyes? Does anyone know?
As far as I know, they are exclusively hexagonal, but some are slightly distorted to allow for curvature. It's the most efficient design for the most tightly packed facets.
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Old Sep 27 2007, 12:21 AM   #17
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The glow in the dark bit could be because the retina is highly reflective like a cat's.
I don't think that could be it, since dragon eyes can glow in absolute darkness, and cat eyes need some light to reflect. And they glow at any angle, unlike a cat's. Dragon eyes must have some way of internally producing light.
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Old Sep 27 2007, 03:57 PM   #18
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I don't think that could be it, since dragon eyes can glow in absolute darkness, and cat eyes need some light to reflect. And they glow at any angle, unlike a cat's. Dragon eyes must have some way of internally producing light.
What could be darker than Between? It seems that the dragon's eyes don't glow there.
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Old Sep 28 2007, 10:17 AM   #19
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apparantly octogans can work on a curved surface...
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Old Sep 28 2007, 12:36 PM   #20
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What could be darker than Between? It seems that the dragon's eyes don't glow there.
Because between isn't simply a lack of light, it's nothing. There is no light, there is no sense of touch, there is no sound, there is no air. Pretty much the only thing that exists between is consciousness and the sensation of extreme cold. So dragon eyes can't glow in between because light does not exist
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Old Oct 1 2007, 05:24 AM   #21
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Because between isn't simply a lack of light, it's nothing. There is no light, there is no sense of touch, there is no sound, there is no air. Pretty much the only thing that exists between is consciousness and the sensation of extreme cold. So dragon eyes can't glow in between because light does not exist
Hmm.. Between is for me a "terra incognita". Because it wasn't at all studied. There could be two possibilities which explain the impressions of being in between: there is really "nothing" or.. it's due to the lack of a human construction which simply cannot see and sence there.

About "glowing" dragon eyes: it could be caused by luminiscence. There are many creatures on Earth which are able to "glow".
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Old Oct 1 2007, 03:08 PM   #22
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I'm pretty sure that you cannot feel anything in between - can't feel your hands clenching the rope, your butt between the dragon's ridges, etc. (There are quotes to that effect, but I don't remember in which books.)
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Old Oct 2 2007, 05:09 AM   #23
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I'm pretty sure that you cannot feel anything in between - can't feel your hands clenching the rope, your butt between the dragon's ridges, etc. (There are quotes to that effect, but I don't remember in which books.)
Yes! And there could be two explainations which I mentioned: between is nothing, an empty space (but not absolutely empty because it isn't a vacuum ) or humans are simply not able to feel and see in between - in the medium (it could be even a parallel world!) which is constructed basing on another physical laws. Maybe there are some objects or formations in between but they are constructed from those forms of energy which man cannot register with his eyes, ears, body...
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Old Oct 2 2007, 08:33 AM   #24
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there are some hints in Anne's short story 'Beyond Between'
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Old Oct 2 2007, 11:16 AM   #25
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there are some hints in Anne's short story 'Beyond Between'
Hm, IMHO this story is more mystic than scientific and rises more questions than answers. Maybe we can start a new thread about it (if 'Beyond Between' was not discussed before).
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Old Oct 21 2007, 11:33 PM   #26
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Hmm.. Between is for me a "terra incognita". Because it wasn't at all studied. There could be two possibilities which explain the impressions of being in between: there is really "nothing" or.. it's due to the lack of a human construction which simply cannot see and sence there.

About "glowing" dragon eyes: it could be caused by luminiscence. There are many creatures on Earth which are able to "glow".
I had considered that, and at first it seemed to make sense (something like in Charlie and the Chocolate factory when they were transferring the chocolate bar) where in Between they'd just be a jumble, and sight and sensation wouldn't exist - however they DO still have consciousness, and they can still feel cold. If the brain were not intact, then they wouldn't even be aware of anything in between.

With the eyes, it's not so much their luminosity that's a mystery, but that in combination with the swirling colors... and still being able to see
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Old Oct 22 2007, 11:14 AM   #27
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I started to question whether they actually feel cold, or if that's just what the brain interprets because the actual sensations don't compute - but then I remembered that there's always a rush of cold air when a dragon comes out of between. So never mind.
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Old Oct 24 2007, 06:27 PM   #28
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somewhere Jaxom says that space is colder than Between and Avis (know thats spelled wrong) replies that between actually has no heat whatsoever (aka 0C) but that he is never there aslong as he is in space. also, no heat means that anthing there would lose its heat at an alarming rate. thus, upon returning to the real world they would gain heat quickly, quite possibly making the air around them cold enough to cause this "rush of cold air."
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Old Oct 25 2007, 03:16 AM   #29
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Not 0 C- 0K, but that too is impossible. Even outer space is only 3K.
The third law of thermodynamics states that it is impossible to reach 0K. Oh and heat is not the same as temperature!

There is also a problem with being very cold... you'd freeze!
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Old Oct 25 2007, 02:44 PM   #30
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In less time than three coughs!
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Old Oct 28 2007, 08:19 PM   #31
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Not 0 C- 0K, but that too is impossible. Even outer space is only 3K.
The third law of thermodynamics states that it is impossible to reach 0K. Oh and heat is not the same as temperature!

There is also a problem with being very cold... you'd freeze!
But outer space is 3K because of the microwave background radiation left over from creation, as well as stars putting out radiation to heat local system environments--

between, however, has had no source of radiation to heat up the dimension other than perhaps the Pernese natives who occassionally flit through, drop something off, or remain after they die.

Given also that the void is evidently a perfect vacuum, the riders & natives only feel cold from evaporation & radiation effects--there's no contact to be had from material already in between, so no sensation or damage from conductive heatloss (as what would happen if you were to dip a finger into liquid helium)
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Old Oct 29 2007, 03:48 AM   #32
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It can't be a perfect vacuum. If it was there'd be bits of exploded dragon and rider. everywhere!
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Old Oct 29 2007, 11:43 AM   #33
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I was just thinking that... I think it's some kind of other dimension; actually I'm thinking of hyperspace. Or maybe it's more like a tesseract...
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Old Nov 2 2007, 08:35 AM   #34
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Brenda
I also imagined Between more like hyperspace between different worlds or realities ( don't know what "tesseract" means).
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Old Nov 2 2007, 08:47 AM   #35
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Tesseract is a concept from the Wrinkle in Time series by L'Engle. As I recall, it's explained as follows: Take a piece of paper and draw two dots widely spaced from each other on it. The shortest distance between them is a straight line, right? Wrong! Bend your paper to bring the dots next to each other; now you have the shortest distance. Tesseracting is something like that, bending space-time to make faraway places adjacent to each other.
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Old Nov 2 2007, 10:08 AM   #36
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Sounds like the 'rubber sheet' theory to me! (LOL)














@ Edith: have you checked out the 'dark sucker' theory?
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Old Nov 4 2007, 05:35 PM   #37
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Sounds like the 'rubber sheet' theory to me! (LOL)














@ Edith: have you checked out the 'dark sucker' theory?
noo... if its not molecules I have no time to read anything at the moment
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Old Nov 5 2007, 04:21 AM   #38
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Tesseract is a concept from the Wrinkle in Time series by L'Engle. As I recall, it's explained as follows: Take a piece of paper and draw two dots widely spaced from each other on it. The shortest distance between them is a straight line, right? Wrong! Bend your paper to bring the dots next to each other; now you have the shortest distance. Tesseracting is something like that, bending space-time to make faraway places adjacent to each other.
Thank you, Cheryl! Unfortunately, the books of Madeleine L'Engle are not so popular in my country (I suppose, most of them were not yet translated into Russian). However, I meet quite often in books and films the wormhole theory, which seems to me similar to tesseract.
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Old Nov 14 2007, 06:42 PM   #39
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As for the changing colour: Hollywood is experimenting with a 3-D filming technique using a projector running at 144 fps, rather than the usual 72, and projecting alternating frames polarised vertically and horizontally.)
Hi P'ter. I found this a bit late. I've seen a demonstration of this kind of film. You wear glasses with lenses polarised vertically and horizontally so your eyes see a different image. The effect is staggeringly convincing, and you don't get the weird colours that the "red and green glasses" technique produces.

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apparantly octogans can work on a curved surface...
That's fascinating. Curved surfaces can have a completely different geometry.

By the way, there is also a difference between a vacuum and "nothing". In a vacuum you can still plot your position in space using three dimensional coordinates. But what would it be like to have a "nothing" in which there is no space, so you cannot be "anywhere"? I wonder if between feels something like that?
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Last edited by StevenB; Nov 15 2007 at 06:00 AM. Reason: Colour blindness
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Old Nov 15 2007, 04:56 AM   #40
edith
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Default Re: Eye Facets

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Originally Posted by StevenB View Post
Hi P'ter. I found this a bit late. I've seen a demonstration of this kind of film. You wear glasses with lenses polarised vertically and horizontally so your eyes see a different image. The effect is staggeringly convincing, and you don't get the weird colours that the "blue and green glasses" technique produces.


That's fascinating. Curved surfaces can have a completely different geometry.

By the way, there is also a difference between a vacuum and "nothing". In a vacuum you can still plot your position in space using three dimensional coordinates. But what would it be like to have a "nothing" in which there is no space, so you cannot be "anywhere"? I wonder if between feels something like that?
Have you seen any of the Stereo Images? I've only seen the one but not the stuff on the proper screen just the posters. (Just not been around at the right time ) (Oh gosh and that talk I went to... by the guy from another uni... nothing I'd never seen on the dept walls before) They're just the standard 3D images but they're, well, wow!

I like curved geometry. It was one of the things that got me absolutely fascinated with physics when I watched one of Mum's OU videos. I was shocked that the rest of my class didn't know that the angles on a triangle didn't always add up to 360 degrees.

makes more sene than a vacuum! ((((shudder))))
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