![]() |
|
Science of Pern This forum is for Edith's Science of Pern project. Please keep each post to one subject, and stay on topic; off topic posts may be moved or deleted. Guests may post in this forum (subject to change). |
![]() |
|
Thread Tools |
![]() |
#1 |
Dragonrider
![]() ![]() Weyrwoman Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
|
![]()
This is a re-posting- cos I can't find the original- of the phosphine/ firestone sample article I did a couple of months ago. I thought that as the debate appears to have got round to firestone again I'd post it for people's reference. ps, I know the book is old but wikkipedia isn't and the properties of a substance don't change cos its 60 years later!
Phosphine/ Firestone Phosphine, the gas produced when dragons chew firestone was first introduced in the very first Dragon-rider story Weyrsearch, published in 1967 which was later incorporated into Dragonflight (published 1968). It has appeared in nearly all the dragon-rider books since then. The first time phosphine is mentioned by name, although “phosphoric air” (Dragonflight: pg 8, Rapp and Whiting 1969; pg 16, Corgi 1981) is mentioned, is in a description of how L’tol became dragonless. “An ill-timed swerve during the Spring Games had brought L’tol and his beast into the full blast of a phosphine emission from S’lel’s bronze Tuenth.” (Dragonflight, pg 17, Rapp and Whiting 1969; pg 22, Corgi 1981). The passage goes on to say that L’tol’s dragon died of phosphine poisoning. So, what is phosphine, and why is such a poisonous gas a good choice for the fuel for the Pernese dragons’ fire? Phosphine (PH3) is a hydride of phosphorous; it is a colourless, odourless gas in its pure form, although more usually it has a fishy odour (the firestone stench which is often mentioned in the books) due to the presence of substituted phosphine and diphosphine (P2H4). It is the common name of phosphorous hydride and is also known as phosphane and phosphamine. Phosphine can be safely mixed without ignition with pure oxygen unless there is a sudden reduction in pressure, when it explodes. (Which explains why dragons don’t blow up, as the phosphine in the stomach must be at a greater or equal pressure to the atmospheric pressure.) The gas reacts with oxygen when it ignites and produces phosphoric anhydride and water. 2PH3 + 4O2 = P2O5 + 3H2O Phosphine is obtained in several ways, though the most relevant method in this case is by the hydrolysis of a metal phosphide such as calcium phosphide (Ca3P2). CaP2 + 6H2O = 3Ca(OH)2 +2PH3 It is probably one of these metal phosphides that is the key ingredient in the firestone the dragons digest to produce phosphine. However, phosphine is highly toxic and although only one character is mentioned as dying of phosphine, even a relatively small dose is fatal. However, there is one reprieve for the Pernese, it is possible to build up a resistance to it, as has been shown by the high level of resistance developed by pests in Asia and Australia, so, as, especially in a pass the average Pernese is liable to be exposed to a very low level of phosphine, all is not lost. References A Higher School Certificate Inorganic Chemistry (second edition), Adlam and Price, London October 1940. wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphine |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Crafter
![]() Craftmaster Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wolverhampton
Gender: M
Fan of: Favorite?
Now Reading: avidly
|
![]()
I'm intrigued by the bit about passing phosphine through hydrochloric acid (and formaldehyde) to produce flame retardants.
Perhaps dragons don't blow up because stomach acids (if I remember right [and I'm not spending time at this time of night checking]) are hydrochloric.
__________________
"Truth is stranger than fiction: fiction has to make sense." Leo Rosten. "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." C. S. Lewis "I find television very educational. Whenever somebody switches it on I go in the other room and read a book." (attributed to Groucho Marx) The Pedants are revolting! (against bad grammar) |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
|
![]()
I always assumed that phosphine poisoning was one of those DF bloopers. The actual flames seemed more likely to me as the cause of his death.
__________________
. Check out my Pern fiction!
![]() Mirrim's Vigil News from the Weyr Missing Link Dragonsong: An Alternate Tune Ghost in the Tunnels Changes at Riverbend Hold Pern Songs |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 | |
Talent
Tower Prime
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Proud Mom!
Gender: F
Fan of: Afra Lyon
Now Reading: Faye Upton: Dragonchoice 3
|
![]() Quote:
No, I think in this instance Anne did get the science right, phosphine killed Larth.
__________________
Decaf coffee is an oxymoron. Instant coffee is an abomination. Give me the real thing and nobody gets hurt. ![]() "Do. Or do not. There is no try" -- Yoda VP of the Afra Lyon fan club! ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 |
Dragonrider
![]() ![]() Weyrwoman Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
|
![]()
that made more sense to me than the burning bit too.
Anne does get the science right more often than it seems, and possibly more often than she realises! There are very few actual blooper bloopers,. just a few things that don't quite make common sense rather than scientific sense. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
|
![]()
I thought Larth fell when his wings got crisped in mid-air. Falling would contribute quite a bit toward his death.
__________________
. Check out my Pern fiction!
![]() Mirrim's Vigil News from the Weyr Missing Link Dragonsong: An Alternate Tune Ghost in the Tunnels Changes at Riverbend Hold Pern Songs |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 |
Talent
Tower Prime
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Proud Mom!
Gender: F
Fan of: Afra Lyon
Now Reading: Faye Upton: Dragonchoice 3
|
![]()
There's no mention of his wings getting crisped in DF. It's been so long since I read MHoP that I can't remember the details there.
__________________
Decaf coffee is an oxymoron. Instant coffee is an abomination. Give me the real thing and nobody gets hurt. ![]() "Do. Or do not. There is no try" -- Yoda VP of the Afra Lyon fan club! ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 |
Momma Wolf
Weyrwoman
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: On the Edge
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern and Talent
Now Reading: The Name of the Rose
|
![]()
Nope, no mention of Larth falling. Considering Lytol's face got hit, I always assumed Larth also caught the blast in the face...and it would make sense, if the muzzle caught the brunt, that phosphine posioning would occure.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 |
Dragonrider
![]() ![]() Weyrwoman Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
|
![]()
just been reading Dragon's fire and I can identify the wrong firestone. I can't jump to a quote after only one reading but it was described as yellow crystals, which means it is most likely to be.... aluminium phosphide.
I found 1 picture! http://www.luxan.com/other_countries...cellaneous.htm |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 | |
Member
Jewel Junk
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mainz (Germany)
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonsdawn
Now Reading: Y.A. Fedosyuk
|
![]() Quote:
The only possible phosphor-containing minerals on Earth are phosphates and most probably the firestone is some kind of phosphate. The problem now is how phosphates could be reduced to phosphides in dragonstomach? ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#11 |
Bitsmith/Starsmith,
Master Sneak Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Scotland
Gender: M
Fan of: Skies of Pern: what else?
Now Reading: My computer screen
|
![]()
Could fire stones be like geodes and have a waterproof shell with a phosphide core trapped inside? The phosphide could be released by breaking open the stones by chewing them. Perhaps the phosphides are ancient deposits from a geological (sorry, pernological) time when Pern was much drier?
__________________
Steven |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#12 |
Master Archivist
![]() Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland, USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern!
Now Reading: Paladin of Souls (Bujold)
|
![]()
That'd be quite dangerous to mine then, I would think, for the miners not to break any open.
And generally for geode collecting, while some are collected by pickaxing them out of the host rock, the majority are found lose at the base of the exposed rock, having been eroded out. Which is to say that it's hard work to get geodes lose and easier to let nature do it...but that takes years and years...as
__________________
Visit one of the other sites of Cheryl's Anne McCaffrey Triad: Sariel's Guide to Pern: a detailed guide to the series The Many Works of Anne McCaffrey: largest fan site about Anne and ALL of her works McCaffrey Quest: annual trivia contest. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#13 |
Dragonrider
![]() ![]() Weyrwoman Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
|
![]()
found it!
Apatite looks like the crystal in question, which is a source of calcium phosphate which reacts with water or acid to produce Phosphine gas. Wikipedia webmineral It's also safer- this site sells it as a gem for jewellry. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#14 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Denver, Colorado US
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern
Now Reading: The Dresden Files
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#15 |
Dragonrider
![]() ![]() Weyrwoman Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
|
![]()
Erm... Apatite wouldn't leak phosphine. It doesn't react with water but with acid.
so it would go... firestone chewed moves to stomach reacts in stomach to produce calcium phosphate and other stuff (I'm busy trying to sort out the disaster that is sorting out documents atm so I can't sort out other products) Calcium phosphate reacts with remaining stomach acid to produce phosphine which when it is exhaled (change in pressure) and mixed with oxygen, combusts. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Denver, Colorado US
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern
Now Reading: The Dresden Files
|
![]()
I hadn't looked it up mayself, just went off your previous post.
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#17 |
Dragonrider
![]() ![]() Weyrwoman Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
|
![]()
bad typing on my part then- sorry
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#18 |
Master Archivist
![]() Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern! |
![]()
Is it reasonable to think that apatite is available in the (huge) quantities needed on Pern?
__________________
Hans, also known as Elrhan, Master Archivist Visit The Pern Museum & Archives for all your Pern and Anne McCaffrey News and Resources! The Pern Museum & Archives is the home of the Pern Encyclopedia and the Pern Bloodlines. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#19 |
Dragonrider
![]() ![]() Weyrwoman Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
|
![]()
I think it is very common.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#20 |
Master Archivist
![]() Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern! |
![]()
Is that an answer to my question?
![]()
__________________
Hans, also known as Elrhan, Master Archivist Visit The Pern Museum & Archives for all your Pern and Anne McCaffrey News and Resources! The Pern Museum & Archives is the home of the Pern Encyclopedia and the Pern Bloodlines. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#21 |
Senior Member
![]() Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonsong
Now Reading: brainships
|
![]()
Yay!! That is cool! JTV, by the way, is like THE most awesome place to buy jewelry from. I strongly encourage ppl to look around its site. And I would think so, in the info section of the above wevlink it mentions its various uses and something is their about it being really important in fertilizers and the prescription industry. I would think then that there should be plenty for dragons since the pernese don't have those sort of industries.......yet.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#22 |
Dragonrider
![]() ![]() Weyrwoman Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Delft
Gender: F
Fan of: Most of them :)
Now Reading: Don't You Have Time To Think- RP Feynman
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#23 |
Master Archivist
![]() Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern! |
![]() ![]()
__________________
Hans, also known as Elrhan, Master Archivist Visit The Pern Museum & Archives for all your Pern and Anne McCaffrey News and Resources! The Pern Museum & Archives is the home of the Pern Encyclopedia and the Pern Bloodlines. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#24 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC
Gender: M
Fan of: The White Dragon
Now Reading: Skies of Pern
|
![]() Quote:
GH |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#25 |
Senior Member
Selkie
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: U.S.A.
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern |
![]()
So apatite is normal firestone, and aluminium phosphide is the exploding flamestone? Cool! Awesome job with the research!
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#26 |
Senior Member
Selkie
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: U.S.A.
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern |
![]()
I found our copy of Dragonsfire. It says normal firestone looks like sandstone, but with blue-green crystals in it (the stuff they found on the beach anyway).
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#27 | |
Dolphineer
Craftmaster
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wausau, WI USA, Central Standard Time
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, other SF works
Now Reading: Dragonback Bargain
|
![]() Quote:
And the firestone is mined in Crom, for Jaxom got his from the mine there for MasterMiner was asking about it. In The White Dragon. ![]() ![]()
__________________
Lover ![]() ![]() ![]() Lover of ![]() ![]() http://www.change.org/profiles/GinnyStar Dragoncave GinnyStar2 Jellied Dragons Lair of Dragons http://dragcave.net/user/GinnyStar2 Thanks! Others: None at this time WIP http://archiveofourown.org/works/252259 http://www.daisy.org/learning-difficulties |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#28 | ||
Senior Member
Selkie
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: U.S.A.
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern |
![]() Quote:
![]() Quote:
![]() creosote bush Dragons Fire: https://books.google.com/books?id=Kl...20bush&f=false https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrea_tridentata Found some more info about Thread too: "A single Thread burrow could suck the life out of a whole valley in half a day." https://books.google.com/books?id=Kl...burrow&f=false |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
|
![]()
It would have to be very hard sandstone to be finding chunks of it on the beach. Sandstone usually erodes down to plain old sand very quickly.
__________________
. Check out my Pern fiction!
![]() Mirrim's Vigil News from the Weyr Missing Link Dragonsong: An Alternate Tune Ghost in the Tunnels Changes at Riverbend Hold Pern Songs |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#30 |
Senior Member
Selkie
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: U.S.A.
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#31 | ||
Junior Member
Muskie
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Washington
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern
Now Reading: Pern, Chronological order
|
![]()
I know this thread is a couple years old, but I really want to weigh in since I JUST finished Dragon's Fire and the identity of the safe Firestone was bugging me a little, lol. Especially considering how sound Anne McCaffrey's science tended to be.
So I followed the links posted by Amaterasu and Edith: Quote:
Quote:
However, after searching through every Phosphate bearing crystal in the list Amaterasu posted, I think I found the culprit. It's blue-green, incredibly common, AND is found in Sanstone. TURQIOSE! |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Should Todd's books be considered canon? | Brenda | Dragonriders of Pern | 265 | Sep 18 2014 12:00 PM |
The Writing on the Wall (Pern Fic) | HarperBrandy | Exhibit Hall | 4 | Aug 21 2007 10:19 AM |
why do I come up with things like this... | edith | Café Archives | 38 | Jul 22 2006 07:56 PM |
ARC of Dragon's Fire | SuzyQ | Book Collector's Meeting Room | 32 | Jul 2 2006 03:46 PM |
Queen firelizards and Flaming? | Shani | Dragonriders of Pern | 14 | Apr 3 2006 09:06 PM |