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Old Jan 13 2008, 05:13 PM   #1
Shalyn
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Default Bloodlines question

Currently at Hans' Pern Museum and Archives getting the names of the Ninth Pass Lords Holder and Craftmasters....

Was there no Lord Holder ever mentioned for High Reaches Hold? I also could not find a Lord Holder for Benden, either.

Also - for Igen...

There are three Lords mentioned in the Archives:
Lord Tesner
Lord Bangor
Lord Laudey

I think that Tesner would be the one the Oldtimers first start to deal with in the Ninth Pass...would that supposition be right?
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Old Jan 13 2008, 05:26 PM   #2
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It's Bargen!
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Old Jan 13 2008, 05:57 PM   #3
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalyn View Post
Currently at Hans' Pern Museum and Archives getting the names of the Ninth Pass Lords Holder and Craftmasters....

Was there no Lord Holder ever mentioned for High Reaches Hold? I also could not find a Lord Holder for Benden, either.

Also - for Igen...

There are three Lords mentioned in the Archives:
Lord Tesner
Lord Bangor
Lord Laudey

I think that Tesner would be the one the Oldtimers first start to deal with in the Ninth Pass...would that supposition be right?
In the 2nd Long Interval, the Lord of Igen was Tesner. Kylara was due to marry Brant of Igen, but he probably died before he could inherit. Lord Banger was the lord during the 9th Pass. By DQ, Laudey was Lord of Igen.

For Benden, the head of hte hold was the Lord Raid, succeeded by Toronas.
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Old Jan 13 2008, 06:09 PM   #4
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

And Edith means Bargen of High Reaches, in case that wasn't clear.
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Old Jan 13 2008, 06:37 PM   #5
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

Thanks Aurelia! And welcome back. I've missed you!

Tresa - yes, Brenda's answer wasn't clear.

I knew they had to be in there somewhere, but weren't in the Dragondex of the DRoP BC omnibus I'm using!

*goes to note in notes*
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Old Jan 13 2008, 08:39 PM   #6
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

Quote:
Tresa - yes, Brenda's answer wasn't clear.
Wait - what? Something's fishy here...


Quote:
Kylara was due to marry Brant of Igen, but he probably died before he could inherit.
For some reason I always assumed that he was not a Lord of Igen, but a smaller ally - within Igen, but not Igen itself.
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Old Jan 14 2008, 09:01 AM   #7
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

She meant Edith, not you.

I also took "Brant of Igen" to mean he lived in the Igen region, not that he was Lord Holder of Igen.

Who's Lord of Igen when Piemur goes to a gather there? *goes to check herself*
It's Laudey.
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Old Jan 14 2008, 11:33 AM   #8
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

Brant certainly wasn't the Lord Holder of Igen. Though Brant is mentioned as "of Igen" he is mentioned as a Holder with a sizeable tract of land (or words to that amount). I'll look up the relevant quote later.
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Old Jan 14 2008, 02:56 PM   #9
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalyn View Post
Currently at Hans' Pern Museum and Archives getting the names of the Ninth Pass Lords Holder and Craftmasters....

Was there no Lord Holder ever mentioned for High Reaches Hold? I also could not find a Lord Holder for Benden, either.

Also - for Igen...

There are three Lords mentioned in the Archives:
Lord Tesner
Lord Bangor
Lord Laudey

I think that Tesner would be the one the Oldtimers first start to deal with in the Ninth Pass...would that supposition be right?
I know that MHoP mentioned one or two Lord Holders of Benden. (Wasn't Raid the second one that lasted until the beginning of DragonFlight?).

GH
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Old Jan 14 2008, 03:55 PM   #10
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

Yes. but he was first in the ninth Pass. Anyone else mentioned in MHoP would've been 8th Interval.
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Last edited by Greenrider Tresa; Jan 14 2008 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Clarifying.
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Old Jan 14 2008, 04:18 PM   #11
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

Hmm, I only now realizes Shalyn was looking in the archives. It is mch easier to read about the conesquitive Lord Holders of a Hold consulting the Bloodline section

Anyway,

Lords Holder for Benden:
  • Lord Bridgely (Bridgeley) (DE(RSR))
  • Lord Ibraton (Dharper)
  • possiby Lord Conar, son of Ibraton
  • Lord Shadder (Mor, Ner)
  • Lord Maidir (MHoP)
  • Lord Raid, son of Maidir (DF, DQ, WD, RoP, AtWoP)
  • Lord Toronas, son of Raid (AtWoP, DoP, SoP)
Lords Holder for Igen:
  • Lord Tesner (MHoP)
  • Lord Banger, son of Tesner (DF)
  • Lord Laudey, son of Banger (WD, Ddrums, RoP, AtWoP, DoP, SoP)
  • Lord Langrell, son of Laudey (SoP)
Lords Holder for the High Reaches:
  • Lord Jamson (DE/RSR)
  • probably Lord Gallian (DE/RSR)
  • Lord Faroguy, father of Bargen and Faravene (MHoP)
  • Lord Fax, nephew of Faroguy (DF)
  • Lord Bargen (MHoP, DF, Ddrums, AtWoP, DoP, SoP)
As for Brant of Igen; I mixed him up with the Holder Thella was supposed to marry The only thing said abut Brant (in DF) is:

Why did the dragonmen need to steal away the prettiest women among the Holders when they had women of their own in the Weyr proper? No need to appropriate Larad’s sister, Kylora [typo in DF, US mmp ed.; meant is Kylara], eagerly awaiting a far different alliance with Brant of Igen one evening and gone on that ridiculous Search the next. Never heard from since, either.

However, since Banger and his son Laudey are the Lords Holder in the relevant time period Brant coulc be of the blood but he wasn't Lord Holder.

Added note: when I put these kind of questions to Anne she usually responds that I am well capable of filling in the geneaogies by myself and that I should do as I see fit. But... until now I have only used that priviledge once (with some of K'vin's relatives from the Hanrahan/Ruaha Bloodline and with full knowledge and permission of Anne) and will only use it when there is a indication in the books that warrants giving a certain person a certain place in the relevant Bloodline.
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Old Jan 14 2008, 04:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

For Shalyn:

Lords Holder Ninth Pass:
  • Lemos: Gedenase and Asgenar; father and son (asgenar confirmed in 2510)
  • Ruatha: Kale; son of Ashmichel, Fax, and Jaxom, son of Fax
  • Igen: Banger, Laudey and Lagrell; father, son and grandson
  • Nerat: Vincet, Begamon and Ciparis; father and two sons
  • Keroon: Corman, Kashman; father and son
  • Fort: Grogellan and Groghe; father and son
  • Crom: Lesselden (he and 2 sons killed by Fax), Fax, Nessel (a blood relation of Fax)
  • Tillek: Oterel and Ranrel; father and son
  • Nabol: Fax, Meron (warder under Fax)
  • Benden: Raid and Toronas; father and son
  • Southern Boll: Sangel, ? and Janissian; father, son and granddaughter
  • Bitra: Sifer, Sigomal, probably Sousmal; father and two sons
  • Ista: Warbret and Tordril; father and son
  • Telgar: Tarathel and Larad; father and son
  • Southern: Toric
Crafmasters Ninth Pass:
  • Farmercraft: Andemon
  • Beastcraft/Herdercraft: Sograny, Briaret, Ballora
  • Tannercraft: Belesden
  • Fishercraft: possibly Curran, Idarolan
  • Smithcraft: Fandarel
  • Glasscraft: Norist, Morilton (temporary)
  • Healercraft: Oldive
  • Dolphincraft: Readis
  • Harpercraft: Robinton
  • Printercraft: Tagetarl
  • Weavercraft: Zurg
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Last edited by Hans; Jan 16 2008 at 05:35 PM.
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Old Jan 14 2008, 05:36 PM   #13
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

Hans, I hate to correct you, but shouldn't this be;

Harpercraft: Robinton, Sebell?
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Old Jan 14 2008, 05:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayru View Post
Hans, I hate to correct you, but shouldn't this be;

Harpercraft: Robinton, Sebell?
In AtWoP, Sebell is mentioned as the Master Harper.

GH
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Old Jan 14 2008, 05:45 PM   #15
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In AtWoP, Sebell is mentioned as the Master Harper.

GH

If I have my chronology correct, he became the MasterHarper in The White Dragon - after Robintons heart attack, with Robinton retiring to Cove Hold
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Old Jan 14 2008, 06:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Hmm, I only now realizes Shalyn was looking in the archives. It is mch easier to read about the conesquitive Lord Holders of a Hold consulting the Bloodline section


[/SIZE][/FONT]

Actually, I used the Bloodlines.

When I couldn't find answers in the Bloodlines, I tried the Archives. That became tedious, so I looked in my Dragondex.


As to Brant of Igen - Um...I spent so long looking at the Bloodlines yesterday that my mind went kerflooey, but I took Kylara's engagement to Brant of Igen meaning that Brant was one of the Lord Holders sons. I've never taken it to mean she was going to mary the Lord Holder.

Besides - if she were to become Lady Holder do you really think she would have gone on Search? That position held the power she so coveted also.

And thank you for the list, Hans. I was doing the research on your site so I wouldn't have to make you look up all that information. People not looking their own things up makes me at work, so I figured I'd better practice what I preach!

One more question: When you say that a Lord Holder is a Lord at the Ninth Pass, do you mean during the time of DF, or are you just talking in general.

I specifically want the Lords Holder who the Oldtimers would have been working with when they first came forward. If the Holdership possibly changed hands between them coming forward and DQ, that would be good too since I am working on that period.

Dragonflight: The Lost Years

hehehe
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Old Jan 14 2008, 06:31 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalyn View Post
Actually, I used the Bloodlines.

When I couldn't find answers in the Bloodlines, I tried the Archives. That became tedious, so I looked in my Dragondex.


As to Brant of Igen - Um...I spent so long looking at the Bloodlines yesterday that my mind went kerflooey, but I took Kylara's engagement to Brant of Igen meaning that Brant was one of the Lord Holders sons. I've never taken it to mean she was going to mary the Lord Holder.

Besides - if she were to become Lady Holder do you really think she would have gone on Search? That position held the power she so coveted also.

And thank you for the list, Hans. I was doing the research on your site so I wouldn't have to make you look up all that information. People not looking their own things up makes me at work, so I figured I'd better practice what I preach!

One more question: When you say that a Lord Holder is a Lord at the Ninth Pass, do you mean during the time of DF, or are you just talking in general.

I specifically want the Lords Holder who the Oldtimers would have been working with when they first came forward. If the Holdership possibly changed hands between them coming forward and DQ, that would be good too since I am working on that period.

Dragonflight: The Lost Years

hehehe
In that case, I guess you are looking for any 8th Pass Lords Holder we know of.
(MHOP on.)
Here are some: Lord Grogellan of Fort; succeeded by Groghe
Lord Maidir of Benden, succeeded by son Raid; also had daughter Maizella; second wife Lady Hayara; had many kids, including Hayon, Naprila, Rasa, Anta, Jonno, Drevalla
Lord Melongel of Benden (wife=Juvana); succeeded by Oterel
Lord Faroguy of High Reaches; had two sons, Farevene and Bargen; nephew=Fax (succeeded)
Lord Tarathel of Telgar; succeeded by Larad
Lord Ashmichel of Ruatha; succeeded by Kale
Lord Lesseldon of Crom
Lord Sangel of Boll
Lord Sifer of Bitra Hold
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Old Jan 14 2008, 07:23 PM   #18
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

shouldn't Oterel be Tillek?

Is the lord of Lemos before Asegener mentioned, as he becomes LH some time between DF and DQ? So that might be relevant to Shalyn.
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Old Jan 14 2008, 07:27 PM   #19
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Quote:
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shouldn't Oterel be Tillek?

Yes.
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Old Jan 15 2008, 01:02 PM   #20
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Yes, Jayru, I forgot Sebell

Shalyn, I listed the Ninth Pass Lords Holder, for the whole Pass (known) but they are placed chronologically. So the first one for each Hold would be the Lord Holder the Oldtimers would have had to deal with.
Some of the Interval Lords were already "out of office" or deceased at the start of DF. To be absolutely sure you should check the Boodlines whether I dug up exact Turns; sorry.

Edith, Gedenase was the father of Asgenar and Lord before him.

I was actually surprised at the low amount of craftmasters we know by name for the Ninth Pass.
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Old Jan 15 2008, 03:25 PM   #21
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

Yes - I do know that Asgenar succeeded between DF/DQ.

That would be something to write about, actually!!!!

Currently, the chapter I am working on is the first full meeting between Lords, Craftmasters, and the 'new' Weyrleaders.

So I believe Hans' list will work great! And I plan on hitting the Bloodlines heavily.
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Old Jan 15 2008, 05:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Yes, Jayru, I forgot Sebell
And do you know? I actually felt a little guilty pointing that out...
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Old Jan 15 2008, 05:31 PM   #23
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you're a kind soul *bows*
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Old Jan 15 2008, 05:34 PM   #24
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One does not lightly correct an aknowledged MasterArchivist...
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Old Jan 15 2008, 09:39 PM   #25
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

Those of you who have access to online or electronic versions of DF (and others) - are there any descriptions of the Lords Holder that anyone can get me?

I'll also look on Hans' site - I'm just afraid that looking in the books I may miss something.

I assume that Meron is fairly good looking - I can't see Kylara going for an ugg.

I think I remember that Raid or Sangel were kind of pinched and sour looking - at least, that's how I remember them.

Hmm.

Off to The Archives.
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Old Jan 16 2008, 04:31 AM   #26
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Best reference for the physical side of what you need are the portraits of the Lords in my encyclopedia (takeb with permission of Robin Wood fro the Mayfair games and the People of Pern book).
Character wise it'll be harder as I haven't been able to work on that yet to put in the encyclopedia.

Keep questions like these coming, Shalyn, it shows what I need to be doing for the encyclopedia.
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Old Jan 16 2008, 06:07 AM   #27
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

Meron - it's mostly attitude and demeanour rather than physical descriptions:

'He has shifty eyes, like Fax's' -Lessa
'S'lel came in with Meron a step behind him. The Holder was furious at
this summons; it showed in his walk, in his eyes, in his haughty bearing.
But he was also as inquisitive as he was devious. He nodded only to Larad
among the Lords and took the seat left vacant for him by Larad's side.
Meron's manner made it obvious that that place was too close to F'lar by
half a room.'

I find that rather interesting - he's quite chummy with Larad, and that may be how he gets to know/got to know Kylara better. Perhaps they were fostered in the same hold for a while, or maybe Meron just sees Larad as someone who might be easily influenced. Nessel's already one of Meron's cronies.


Raid is 'wiry' with a 'blunt chin'.


Here's an interesting snippet. Seventy-two dragon pairs returned from the south. Ramoth's clutch was 41, Prideth's was 32. You also had T'bor and F'nor... do we assume that the figure of 72 excludes F'nor, T'bor and Kylara? Sheesh, poor adults, stuck in the south with seventy-plus weyrlings and no sign of many support staff...
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Old Jan 16 2008, 07:02 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Meron - it's mostly attitude and demeanour rather than physical descriptions:

'He has shifty eyes, like Fax's' -Lessa
'S'lel came in with Meron a step behind him. The Holder was furious at
this summons; it showed in his walk, in his eyes, in his haughty bearing.
But he was also as inquisitive as he was devious. He nodded only to Larad
among the Lords and took the seat left vacant for him by Larad's side.
Meron's manner made it obvious that that place was too close to F'lar by
half a room.'

I find that rather interesting - he's quite chummy with Larad, and that may be how he gets to know/got to know Kylara better. Perhaps they were fostered in the same hold for a while, or maybe Meron just sees Larad as someone who might be easily influenced. Nessel's already one of Meron's cronies.


Raid is 'wiry' with a 'blunt chin'.


Here's an interesting snippet. Seventy-two dragon pairs returned from the south. Ramoth's clutch was 41, Prideth's was 32. You also had T'bor and F'nor... do we assume that the figure of 72 excludes F'nor, T'bor and Kylara? Sheesh, poor adults, stuck in the south with seventy-plus weyrlings and no sign of many support staff...
Meron, if memory serves had no "blood" connections. He was one of Fax's warders. The original Nabol line seems to have been wiped out by Fax.

I believe that Toric was part of the support staff that went South with F'nor. Again, that's only if my memory serves...
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Old Jan 16 2008, 07:03 AM   #29
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I believe that Toric was part of the support staff that went South with F'nor. Again, that's only if my memory serves...
Yes, he had to have been really - I think there's a lot of good stuff about Toric on Hans' site, and also in the later novels. Doesn't _Skies_ have a lot of his backhistory?
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Old Jan 16 2008, 07:22 AM   #30
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I think most of his back story is in Renegades of Pern. Again, I may be wrong
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Old Jan 16 2008, 07:24 AM   #31
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Nah, it's more likely to be me. It's been ages since I've read those two.
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Old Jan 16 2008, 07:49 AM   #32
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Well, I haven't read RoP or SoP in a while either - so i could equally be as wrong... LOL

But, to anyone else reading all this, Torics back story is in one of those two books...
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Old Jan 16 2008, 08:10 AM   #33
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It's in Renegades of Pern in the prologue, but I haven't got the book with me.
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Old Jan 16 2008, 08:34 AM   #34
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

For what it's worth - Toric and Asgenar are the least of my worries.

Not that I'm saying this thread's about me, of course.

I know there are some minor physical descriptions in some of the books (note Kath's Meron above), and that's what I'm looking for.

Same with the craftmasters.

Hans - if you aren't taking notes on all this, I am, and am putting as much description as I can in my notes for my story - whether I use it or not. I'll be happy to send it all to you so you can update the ARchives.


I know that if I had an online or an electronic copy of these books, I'd just do a search on the various names. I may have to invest a few bucks to get downloads, just for that.
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Old Jan 16 2008, 09:34 AM   #35
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RoP on.:

Quote:
“I don’t care if everyone else in the family have been happy on High Palisades Island for every generation since the First Record—I want to see what the mainland is like!” Toric separated the last five words with emphatic thumps on the long kitchen table. His father, a Masterfisher, regarded him in shocked amazement that gradually turned to frozen anger as his second son openly and in front of the younger children and the four apprentices defied him. “There’s a lot more to Pern than this island and Ista!”
TWD on.:

Quote:
"The Southern Continent, F'lar, when can we start opening the Southern Continent?" Groghe asked. "That Toric, who stayed behind in the Southern Hold, maybe he could use a strong, active, energetic, ambitious lad or two, or three?"
DQ on.:

Southern Continent;

Quote:
So intent was he on the anomalies of this Fall, that he did not notice the passage of time. He was somewhat startled, then, to have T’bor appear overhead, announcing the end of Fall. And both men were alarmed when the ground-crew chief, a young fisherman from Ista named Toric, verified that the Fall had lasted a scant two hours since discovery....It had always amused F’nor that people he had scarcely met were willing to confide in him, but he had found that this was often an advantage, despite the hours he’d had to spend listening to maundering tales. One of the younger men, the ground-crew chief, Toric, informed him that he’d staked out a sandy cove near his hold. It was almost inaccessible from the landside, but he’d seen certain fire-lizard signs. He was determined to Impress one and positive that he could, for he’d been lucky with watch-whers. He’d tried to convince Fort Weyr that he should have a chance at Impressing a dragon, but he hadn’t been given the courtesy of seeing T’ron. Toric was quite bitter about weyrmen and, knowing (as everyone seemed to, F’nor had discovered) about the belt-knife fight, Toric expected F’nor to be disaffected, too. He was surprised when F’nor brusquely cut off his carping recital.
Meron was a warder before Fax, then took over Nabol after his death.

DF on.:
Quote:
With Fax's death, Telgar has come to the fore in the growing sedition. Meron, so-called Lord of Nabol, is strong and seeks, I feel, to be first: Telgar is too cautious for him. The dissension strengthens and is more widespread than when I last spoke with Bronze Rider F'lar.
RoP on.:

Quote:
The most depressing part of that harper account was that no one had attempted to take charge of what Fax had so ingeniously secured. Ruatha Hold had been given to ‘a baby, Meron had taken hold only of Nabol, and the other five had been reclaimed by Bloodkin of those Fax had supplanted. Then Meron, who ought to have learned more from Fax, had become enamoured of Thella’s half-sister, Kylara. Well, Kylara had not been very smart in Thella’s estimation: she had lost her dragon queen. And Meron was dead, too.
DLG on.:

Quote:
Meron of Nabol, the unlamented Lord who preceded Deckter, managed in only a few Turns to make himself nearly as notorious as Fax. He was not of Lord Holder's

Blood, but served as Fax's steward and was quick enough to step into his dead Master's place. The other Lord Holders took their time confirming him in his rank, but they let him pass when other concerns required their attention. Thread had begun to fall, and the Weyr was again rising to prominence.
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Old Jan 16 2008, 11:32 AM   #36
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Shalyn. I'll gladly make use of your notes. Thank you for your gracious offer of making them available. *bows*
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Old Jan 16 2008, 02:18 PM   #37
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

Ummmm ...... in a week or so (8 days!! Eeeeeeee!) I shall be going back to France for a month (bliss ......) and will be reunited with my lovely AMC books (well, the Pernese ones anyway LOL) and can do any re-reading and note-taking on Lord Holder and Craftmaster descriptions and things? Or on anything really LOL

I used to do character gathering for the PTB, BS and CS series, and have made some random other ones from the early books on life back on old Terra so I'm used to it and love doing it!! LOL

So, if you have a requirement, ask away! I have all short stories and novels, although not the last couple of Todd books (monetary reasons only).

There you are.

Feel free to use and abuse me!
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Old Jan 16 2008, 02:30 PM   #38
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

As well as that "staff meeting" in DF, you might want to review the part where they're preparing to march on the Weyr.
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Old Jan 16 2008, 05:34 PM   #39
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

Shalyn, here's sone stuff from notes I made in years long gone; it's not much but maybe it helps.

Fax
A greedy man, restless, shifty eyes, wears rings with stones on left hand (so he was right handed because he would not wear rings on his sword hand), lecherous by reputation, has an affable grin, heavy chested,

Larad
Mentioned as young Lord of Telgar, new leader of the Lord after Fax’ death, well spoken,

Meron
Strong personality, sharp faced, ex warder with no “blood” at all, shifty eyes,

Nessel
One of Fax’ blood connections, under influence of Meron, older man, has ot the wit to imporve on his his conquering relatives ways,

Robinton
Tall, gaunt man with a lined, saturnine grace, keen eye for the ridiculous, active imagination, innate sense of justice,

Raid
Blunt chin,

Fandarel
Severa inches taller than any Lod Holder or Craftmaster, massive shoulders, heavily muscled, a giant tree-stump of a man,

Tesner
Grumpy, old, most senior of the Lords Holder

Kale
Tall, slender man with dark hair and grey eyes, tolerant, easy going, affable,

Oterel
Resolute man
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Old Jan 16 2008, 05:36 PM   #40
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Default Re: Bloodlines question

Oh, while consulting notes I found I also forgot to mention Zurg, the Masterweaver!
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