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Old Nov 21 2006, 07:13 PM   #1
Shalyn
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Default "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

We've seen many times that the children of the Lords Holder can be Searched, and sometimes Impress. What happens to their children?

Are they sent back to their Hold to be fostered/raised? Or would they stay in the Weyr?

Personally, I think that the children should go back to the Hold to be fostered, just to make sure there are enough children of "The Blood" to take Hold. Yet, it also makes sense to have them kept at the Weyr.

Thoughts?
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Old Nov 21 2006, 08:33 PM   #2
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

I think the children should remain in the Weyr until they're old enough to decide if they want to remain in the weyr and stand for Impression or be fostered to the Hold. But then again they could still go to a Hold and later on go back to the Weyr to stand for Impression.

*shrugs* I know if it was me I'd want a say in where I went.
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Old Nov 21 2006, 09:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

Well - the Weyr is not set up for children is it?
Can't say I'd like it much to have my baby sent back to mummy for raising, I must admit, if I were a dragon rider - but perhaps that bond with your dragon ALWAYS comes first
Which brings up the point - when does a woman stop riding if she becomes pregnant? She cant go "between". So probably stops riding soon as she confirms a pregnancy. Eight months. What's her dragon going to do for all that time? Unless there's just been a mating flight
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Old Nov 22 2006, 12:08 AM   #4
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

I think it varies widely. We know that early in Pern's history Weyr children might be sent back to Holds to be raised (eg Sean and Sorka's brood are sent to Mairi at Ruatha), but that may have been before Weyr's were the size they are later on, really well established independant communities.

I would really think it depends on the individual person, their personal ties back to the Hold (friendly or unfriendly terms), and what might have been agreed when the person was allowed to stand as a candidate.

Lily - I'd disagree about Weyrs being set up for children. Save for goldriders, most candidates are Weyrbred ergo raised in the Weyr. The women of the Lower Caverns raise their own children as well as foster those of female riders and holder women who don't want to raise a dragonrider's child.
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Old Nov 22 2006, 02:01 AM   #5
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

Another matter - Holds tithing to the Weyrs. Surely, with a larger population of support crew to dragons and riders, they must have produced some of their own food. If they had beasts for dragon fodder there must have been grass somewhere, therefore cultivation where they could grow crops for themselves.

Sorry: this is going OT isnt it Very easy to do
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Old Nov 22 2006, 03:00 AM   #6
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

It would depend on the people involved. Alessan allowed Oklina to stand as candidate on the condition that her children get sent to the Hold to be raised. I would imagine the transfer would be done as soon as the kids are old enough to travel between, given the differences in values between Hold and Weyr. Although I should think that some people do end up leaving the Weyr later, if they haven't Impressed by the time they're too old to stand as candidates, if they couldn't face living among dragons. However, I can imagine that such people would be more attracted to the crafts, if they could find a master willing to take on such an old apprentice, than the holds where they'd be essentially unskilled workers/drudges.

The point of tithing is that although there must be fodder for herdbeasts who are only housed temporarily before being eaten by the weyrfolk and dragons, there simply aren't enough people to go around to farm during a Pass. Unmechanized farming takes a lot of manpower per unit of yield. The dragonriders spend all their time fighting thread, caring for their dragons and resting, certainly during a Pass. Part of the resentment Holders feel during the Interval is that the dragonriders don't farm even if they had the time to do so, when their services aren't needed all the time. However, I suspect this will change when Thread ends forever.
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Old Nov 22 2006, 04:01 AM   #7
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

I think sending children (of erstwhile Holderfolk) from the Weyr to the Hold is out of the question in principle and that Cheryl's example only belongs in early Pernese societ when the structure of life in the Weyrs was just forming and setting itself.

Holderfolk Searched and living in the Weyr have the choice to return to their Holds if they don't Impress. Do they chose to live in the Weyr or when they Impress, their offspring will be Weyrfolk and will not go back to the Hold, although they will be fostered within the Weyr (as we often see).

Maybe the possibility exists for an individual or if the non Impressable son of a Searched Lord Holder's son iks the only heir or something, but those cases will be extremely rare as virtually nonexistent.

People taken in by the Weyr, Searched or not, are Weyrfolk and will act and live accordingly.

That's how I perceive and interpret what's in the books. Besides, there are more than enough people, including children, outside the Weyrs far more than in the Weyrs and the Weyr needs a big body of people to support it within the Weyr! Thus there are a lot non riders needed, a fact that;s sometimes conveniently 'forgotten' or at least not talked/thought about.

So Shalyn, I think that a child of a ruling family would only return to the Hold is he (sic!) was a possible candidate for the Lord Holdership, and I think that it will be rare situation that there will not be enough candidates for that position (the opposite is far more likely)
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Old Nov 22 2006, 04:57 AM   #8
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lily View Post
Which brings up the point - when does a woman stop riding if she becomes pregnant? She cant go "between". So probably stops riding soon as she confirms a pregnancy. Eight months. What's her dragon going to do for all that time? Unless there's just been a mating flight
She can't go between in the 1st trimester, but she can still ride and care for her dragon as normal. After that, she can go back to normal duties for as long as it's comfortable to do so. For a healthy, athletic woman with no other medical issues, there's often no reason you can't keep up with your usual routine up to 8 months (or more... I had a step aerobics instructor who was still going at 39 weeks!!), though I expect she'd ease off on the more physical/dangerous jobs as time progressed.
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Old Nov 22 2006, 06:39 AM   #9
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

What Kath said...my mum was a fit athletic women when she was pregnant with me, she was still horse-riding and playing netball at 8 months pregnant!
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Old Nov 22 2006, 09:43 AM   #10
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

Pregnant women aren't supposed to go between in the third trimester either, but other physical activity at the level she used to be physical should be fine for quite a while.

So Hans, what then do you say about when Alessan asked for Oklina's children to be sent back to the Hold?
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Old Nov 22 2006, 10:55 AM   #11
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

I think that Alessan letting Oklina go on Search with the stipulation that her children be sent to the Hold answers the question really. They were the only two of the Blood left after the disaster and all the children of Blood were needed to ensure that there was someone for succession. I even think that somewhere in the book it states that if there had been more siblings left that there wouldn't have been a problem with her going at all. I take that to mean any children she had would have stayed in the Weyr.
Sorry but no time this morning before work to find that reference. I'll try to remember to look for it later.
Seems to me that what is best for the Hold is considered first.
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Old Nov 22 2006, 11:35 AM   #12
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheryl View Post
Pregnant women aren't supposed to go between in the third trimester either,

Yeah.... but I was never sure if that was for medical reasons to do with the pregnancy, or because they just stopped riding full-stop due to comfort issues. Given that Anne used to be a pretty active horserider in her younger days, I'd imagine she'd base the point at which weyr women cease riding on her own experiences. Not that we're any closer to knowing what they are!

I've tried to hand-wave a few reasons why a heavily pregnant woman wouldn't want to go between in my own fics, but I'm less certain that they need to avoid it at that stage.
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Old Nov 22 2006, 04:05 PM   #13
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

I'd have thought that during the last trimester a heavily pregnant dragonrider would have trouble fitting between the neck ridges.

I remember reading a medical study on pregnancy in sport which stated that there were some olympic medal winners who were pregnant at the time of winning them; including (I THINK) the gold medalist in the high jump at Helsinki.
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Old Nov 23 2006, 09:23 AM   #14
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

Go ahead off-topic all you want. More interesting that way.

As for my original question - maybe what happens is that it depends on the family. Maybe some Holding families want all offspring raised in the Hold, so they can be 'infused' with the Holding training at first, then sent to the Weyr later when they can make a choice.

I would think it would be easier to assimilate a child who was raised in a Hold into a Weyr than to assimilate a child raised in a Weyr into the Hold.
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Old Nov 23 2006, 09:50 AM   #15
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

I think you're right about assimilation.

I think the size of a Hold family will make a difference on whether they'd want any Weyr-born children sent back to the Hold. A large family could probably do without as many potential rivals for heirship, whereas Ruatha after the plague clearly needed every member of the blood that was born.
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Old Nov 23 2006, 03:43 PM   #16
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

At the time Alessan asked that Oklina's children be sent back to Ruatha, he didn't know that Nerika was going to produce several fine sons
He might not have been as insistant in later years - although by that time tradition would have made it automatic, no doubt
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Old Jan 25 2007, 07:06 AM   #17
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

For what it's worth, in TWD Jaxom worries that F'lessan's children have a stronger claim to Ruatha than he does. Presumably if it is such a concern to him, it would be a possibility that a non-riding heir of F'lessan could make a bloodclaim to Ruatha and maybe win.

I doubt that they would as Lessa totally renounced any claim to Ruatha. Since the Perenese seem to place such a high value on family and honour and duty, I should imagine that once an ancestor does something like a renunciation, all their direct heirs would by their culture follow along.

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Old Jan 25 2007, 07:30 AM   #18
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

I'm not sure if it's been said yet or not (because I didn't read all the posts), but children brought in by search stay until they've passed, I think, twenty turns (I can't remember the exact age anymore). If they fail to impress they're allowed to go about wherever they wish, usually finding position in a crafthall. Some remain in the weyr, but their duties I haven't found mentioned. Kylara's pool-boys, maybe...
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Old Jan 25 2007, 10:29 AM   #19
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I think that it is in one of the earlier books - possibly the 1st trio of main books, if that helps, and quite probably DQ.
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Old Jan 25 2007, 10:35 AM   #20
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

The other obvious reference in terms of candidate ages is "The Smallest Dragonboy".

As far as this thread goes, Hans mentioned something along those lines up-thread at post #7.
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Old Jan 25 2007, 10:58 AM   #21
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

Per TSD on.:

Quote:
"Having older candidates makes good sense," L'vel was saying, as Keevan settled down near the table. "Why waste four to five years of a dragon's fighting prime until his rider grows up enough to stand the rigors?" L'vel had Impressed a blue of Ramoth's first clutch. Most of the candidates thought L'vel was marvelous because he spoke up in front of the older riders, who awed them. "That was well enough in the Interval when you didn't need to mount the full Weyr complement to fight Thread. But not now. Not with more eligible candidates than ever. Let the babes wait."
"Any boy who is over twelve Turns has the right to stand in the Hatching Ground," K'last replied, a slight smile on his face. He never argued or got angry. Keevan wished he were more like his father. And oh, how he wished he were a brown rider! "Only a dragon —each particular dragon—knows what he wants in a rider. We certainly can't tell. Time and again the theorists," K'last's smile deepened as his eyes swept those at the table, "are surprised by dragon choice. They never seem to make mistakes, however."
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Old Jan 26 2007, 03:11 PM   #22
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Default Re: "Ruling Family" Dragonrider Children

I think the choice is their to make if they want to be a dragonrider or whatever.
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