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Old Jun 16 2011, 07:06 PM   #1
Almaron
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Default Pern Map Project

As far back as 2008, I had the idea of creating an up-to-date Pern Map, as the one shown in Skies Of Pern is completely inaccurate, and the fabulous resource Atlas of Pern is lacking the holds established after the discovery of Landing.

Finally, I've managed to finish the terrain layout; here it is for you to see.
http://amcalmaron.deviantart.com/#/d3j3hcb

This was done using a lot of information from the Atlas of Pern, as well as some from the various maps on the Pern Museum. It will have labels eventually - problems with the layout meant I left them out of this version, although I have several half-finished versions with labels - and my overall hope was that this map, being a pixel version, could be swiftly and easily edited once new information is discovered about an area. Alternatively, PernMUSH users can use it to properly add new locations.

One thing; when I started this map, I was unfamiliar with picture editing protocols, and I used the Xanadu Weyr map shown here http://www.agriphoto.nl/pma/Maps%20a...Map%20002.html. I had already finished half the image before I realised this, and the Xanadu Weyr page no longer lists the image or has a contact section. If somebody from Xanadu can direct somebody my way so I can check if this is alright with them, that'd be great. I'll delete this if they're not happy.

UPDATE: Darn, I've been going over areas of the map while adding labels, and I can see a few places (mostly the western locations - my attention to minor detail improved over time) that will need to be updated. Expect this to be fixed eventually.

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Old Jun 16 2011, 10:54 PM   #2
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Default Re: Pern Map Project

Update: did a mock-up of the Southern Continent. Reading Skies of Pern is what got me started on this; the map at the front isn't accurate in the slightest.

This is what the South looks like by SOP: http://amcalmaron.deviantart.com/#/d3j42uq
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Old Jun 16 2011, 10:59 PM   #3
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Default Re: Pern Map Project

I'm sorry its hard to see to tell some things right now, but I shall try and look at later.
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Old Jun 17 2011, 03:39 AM   #4
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Default Re: Pern Map Project

I've come to think that the Hold borders listed in the Atlas - specifically, the section detailing Hold/Weyr Borders - aren't quite accurate. Boll's borders as drawn would overlap two Fort holds; Gar and Peyton, while Fort's borders would place Fort Sea Hold in Ruatha, as well as have the absolute edge of a Fort valley belong to Ruatha; it would make more sense for the border to be slightly higher, and run along the mountain range to the north. Tillek's borders are confusing - if they use the river as the border, then there's a huge Western valley of Ruatha separated from the main hold by the Mountain Range. Keroon's eastern borders are a bit odd - you'd think the border would follow the river, but it appears to go straight through the hillside. Perhaps it runs along the line of hills.

EDIT: Hang on, there's a tiny valley in that hill that I missed the first time round - doesn't go all the way through, but that's definitely where the border is! Fort's situation has gotten more confusing - there's an alcove in the western mountains that could go to either Fort or Ruatha.

Anyway, I'll work this into the finished map, and you can compare it with the borders given in the Atlas.

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Old Jun 17 2011, 04:59 PM   #5
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Default Re: Pern Map Project

Good luck, and look forward to seeing the finished project.
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Old Jun 17 2011, 07:10 PM   #6
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Same here Lily
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Old Jun 17 2011, 10:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: Pern Map Project

Without actually looking at the maps:

Hold borders change over time. When a Hold is first set up, the Weyr will want to minimise the amount of land it has to protect, so the Hold boundaries may be (say) a cliff on one side and a river on the other, as the water will prevent Thread from burrowing into the hold. Over time (perhaps during the next Interval) the Hold can be extended to the next mountain barrier, or new holds can be set up starting from that side. The Weyr now protects the whole area between the mountains.

Lord Holders who are fond of gambling may find themselves winning or parting with the odd cothold from time to time. This could account for some of the anomalies you mention.

The important thing is for each Weyr to have a clear defensible area under its wings, even if the hold boundaries vary from time to time, and for each hold to tithe to the Weyr that protects it.

I look forward to seeing your map on completion, and will take a closer look at the existing maps when I have time.
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Old Jun 18 2011, 12:52 AM   #8
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Default Re: Pern Map Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriflor View Post
Without actually looking at the maps:

Hold borders change over time. When a Hold is first set up, the Weyr will want to minimise the amount of land it has to protect, so the Hold boundaries may be (say) a cliff on one side and a river on the other, as the water will prevent Thread from burrowing into the hold. Over time (perhaps during the next Interval) the Hold can be extended to the next mountain barrier, or new holds can be set up starting from that side. The Weyr now protects the whole area between the mountains.

The important thing is for each Weyr to have a clear defensible area under its wings, even if the hold boundaries vary from time to time, and for each hold to tithe to the Weyr that protects it.

I look forward to seeing your map on completion, and will take a closer look at the existing maps when I have time.
Just like in Chronicles of Pern Second Weyr, when the founder ask to extend the protection at Southern Boll, the

Lord Holders who are not good management don't care for the management and switch their support to another. One of the book I don't recall which one right now.
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Old Jun 18 2011, 04:33 PM   #9
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There's a thread in here somewhere about the discrepancies of the loction of the original stakes...
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Old Jun 18 2011, 05:21 PM   #10
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Default Re: Pern Map Project

I think I remember reading that - the US edition uses one map, and the UK another? One where the Southern Continent is the same as it is in the 9th Pass, and one where it uses the archaic map in Atlas Of Pern where the coastline is a different shape.

I'm mostly using the 9th Pass one as a guide, because the inland stakes are the same as on the other map (save for the Tuareg camps being in the wrong place; Kahrain instead of Araby), and the coastal stakes are in far more sensible locations - the ruins of Paradise River and Malay River Stakes are known to exist in the 9th Pass (the latter is arguably where M'rand and Pilgra plan to retire to), and the other map would have them in the water.

Hmm...I've just remembered the other issue - weren't there multiple version of one of the maps which disagreed where certain locations were? I'll look over all the maps, and use whichever locations are used the most - 2 maps list location A, 1 map lists location B; I'll use A.
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Old Jun 19 2011, 05:46 PM   #11
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I've just discovered something of note - the newest maps of Pern have the longitude in the wrong places!

I can't find the maps I've found this on in the Archives, but I was using the newer Corgi White Dragon - white spine, Les Edwards cover - and I was finding that although the eastern half matched my map, when it reached the join at the middle of the book, the western part was at a completely different area. Then, I checked the version in the (1998?) Corgi Dolphins Of Pern - blue spine, Steve Weston cover - and that one matched! There's a small area of the map -inbetween Longitude 5 and 6 - that's being cut out of the newer maps, and worse, still being used with the rest of the Longitude changed to suit that!

To report on my map - currently fixing several errors that popped up over time; the older areas of the map lacking in quality compared with the newer, a huge problem with the High Reaches highlands not matching the river layout, and the Latitude being off in the higher areas. Urgh...this should be fun to fix. Eastern half shouldn't take too much longer, then on to labelling!
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Old Jun 21 2011, 06:53 PM   #12
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Recently decided that I should have another look at Southern, to make sure everything's still right. Good thing I did - Great Bay's hills were off.

One thing that really bothers me with Karen Wynn Fonstad's maps of the South is that they all contradict eachother. Araby has a cliff-lined west coast in the distant views, but a beach waterfront in the close-up. The marshes near the Numbweed Plain are a different shape on each map. One one map, Paradise River ends abruptly, and a tiny river diverts from its south part! And don't get me started on Jordan...I'll be lucky if I can fix that area when the area isn't well marked (where the hills begin and end). EDIT: Actually, never mind! Was having problems with Cardiff being listed as on a plateau in SOP, and after I re-examined its placement in Dragonsdawn, saw that it just managed to fit on the heights depicted in the Atlas.

Generally I use the closeup maps as the defining point, then use distant maps if the area isn't mapped anywhere else - eg Dorado, Ierne Island, Cathay. Currently I still have Lemos, Bitra and bits of Telgar in the North to finish, and most of the South, save for Ierne, most of Dorado and Cathay, and a few parts of Araby.

Oh, and I'm also working on a map of Landing at the same time - I know this already exists in the Atlas Of Pern, but it's been excavated since then, and we know more about the buildings there, so an easily editable map could be handy there. I think the Admin Building and the AIVAS Annex must be one of the two irregularly shaped buildings on the southern part of the map (left side), possibly the one nearer F'lar's excavated warehouse (various descriptions of the building state that the Annex is perpendicular to the Admin Building, and "on the edge of the lava flow".)

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Old Jun 23 2011, 10:31 PM   #13
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sounds like you've got yourself quite a project. how long have you been working on this?
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Old Jun 24 2011, 12:11 AM   #14
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On/off for the last two and a half years? I originally meant to do a simple map showing the location of Southern Holds and terrain, but my first version, which consisted of "^"s to represent mountains, quickly proved inadequate. So I eventually switched to my present version, which uses land information from the Atlas Of Pern, and is drawn vaguely topographically, although even that is hard, cause the Atlas is not very clear which hills are higher than others.

Various things have slowed me down over time; problems with the source maps, needing to reserve the Atlas from the local library (later bought a copy to avoid this), the sheer difficulty of drawing the hills, and realising that I needed to cite things - At first, I'd just grabbed the Xanadu Weyr map and used that as a base, but then I realised I needed to credit them for the overall outline.

I'm very nearly done now - I've been touching up the old drawings; Jordan and the southern mountains still need quick checkups, and Lemos, Bitra and Telgar are awaiting a final overhaul. Then it's on to labelling!
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Old Jun 24 2011, 02:13 PM   #15
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I am looking forward to it!!
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Old Jun 24 2011, 03:58 PM   #16
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me too!
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Old Jun 26 2011, 05:39 PM   #17
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Grr...this has to have been the third time I've had to redraw the High Reaches now - that stupid highland area just keeps being off slightly. One reason for this? The northernmost High Reaches river! It's been moved from its position in the Atlas, which is just above the 60L line, to a good deal above!

Argh, there's so many minor issues, and they're all going to drive me mad! The map I used initially was on a mild tilt, so that's caused some issues with the Latitude in places, but it's far too late to fix that now. My plan at the moment is to fix these issues as best as I can, finish the map, address these issues on the comments page, and then take a much needed break! Even if it's slightly off, at least it'll show where things are.

Southern is nearly done - just tiny edits at Jordan and making sure the barrier mountains still line up right. Just finished repairing High Reaches, and now I need to check Crom's ok, and then finish upper Telgar and upper Lemos, as well as Upper & Coastal Bitra. Plus tidy off the tip of Keroon.
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Old Jun 27 2011, 04:36 AM   #18
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So we'll get to see it soon?? That's the curse of the artistic it's never completely to one's satisfaction.
I find I have to let myself reach a point where I say enough already. Because unfortunately I have ruined a piece from too much obsessive tweaking.
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Old Jun 27 2011, 06:37 AM   #19
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One thing none of the Pernese maps seem to have is a consistent Prime Meridian.

Once they really start sailing around the oceans (not just offshore) they need a base reference line for successful navigation.

The view of the globe in Pernese Atlas shows time zones but their placement seems rather arbitary; artistic rather than scientific. No equivalent to Greenwich.

Logically, I suppose, it should go through the location of the seamens' main craft hall.
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Old Jun 28 2011, 05:22 PM   #20
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Default Re: Pern Map Project

Quick note; here's an example of why things are taking so long - check out the differences between these two pictures of Bitra!



http://amcalmaron.deviantart.com/art...fter-215605921

For some reason DeviantArt's messed with the quality of the image! Guess I'd best save it as a PNG or something to fix that.

EDIT: Current Status: Only a few things left to finish now! Northern Continent is done, save for the uninhabited rocky coastal area of Bitra. In the South, three or four things; Jordan River and the area around Azov just need the bottom areas refined, and the West and East barrier ranges need checking - East was fine when I drew it, but West got moved in the Delta re-editing, so that'll need to be checked. Here's hoping I finish tomorrow!

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Old Jun 28 2011, 11:16 PM   #21
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I might not 'see' as well as I use too, but I do enjoy trying to 'look' at folks art. Keep up!
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Old Jun 29 2011, 11:39 PM   #22
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Something that's kind of interesting is how the Atlas is still accurate about several areas in the south, despite plenty of things being written about the south since then.

For instance, we know that Honshu's carved out of a mountain, and the Atlas depicts a large mountain peak just to the south of where Honshu is normally placed. It also lists some mines to the west of Drake's Lake, and it's been stated in recent books that Master Hamian re-established Karachi Camp, which should be located not too far from those mines. Cardiff's another that springs to mind - it only just manages to fit on the high hills running along the Jordan River, and I think that matches one of the descriptions of it, although I might need to check again.

I dunno, I just sort of thought that was interesting - it could suggest Anne McCaffrey intentionally used the Atlas to select the locations of Stake Holds, or it could be a big co-incidence.
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Old Jun 30 2011, 03:01 PM   #23
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Yeah

I love my copy of the Atlas, but like most I think it would be nice if it were to get an update.

Oh well, dreams are free.
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Old Jul 1 2011, 12:09 AM   #24
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Oh dear...things are all turning silly with the Southern Barrier mountains. Different areas aren't lining up, and there's a mountain that's not sitting right...

Argh! This has tried my patience too far! The rest is done, and I need to finish this soon, so I'm going to clean that up and then leave it at that! It's just too hard for me at the moment to fix.

EDIT: There! Done! I'm truly sorry everyone that it isn't 100% accurate cause of the southern mountains, but I don't have the energy to finish analysing that accursed area, so this will have to do for now.

http://amcalmaron.deviantart.com/art...Pern-216022871

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Old Jul 1 2011, 04:56 AM   #25
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We who get to enjoy the result of your trials and tribulations have no room to complain!!
And I'm pretty positive there isn't a one of us who is going whine and complain.

It looks wonderful to me!! And I feel lucky to be one of those who gets to see it.
Thank you!
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Old Jul 1 2011, 10:40 AM   #26
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it looks great!!!!
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Old Jul 1 2011, 08:45 PM   #27
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Okay, here's the same thing but with place names added. This is more of a draft than a finished version - the Southern Holdings aren't as well placed - but I think I'm going to stop here for a while. I'll sort them out another time.

http://amcalmaron.deviantart.com/art...tage-216164719

I'd post the image here, but it's huge, and I wouldn't want to slow everyone's page down.

EDIT: I've made several changes since the original posting - all minor ones. But I've added a bit on the DeviantArt page talking about the Holds that haven't been placed cause I wasn't sure where to put them. If I find enough info, or if someone else does and tells me where to find it, I'll update it with them!

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Old Jul 2 2011, 05:16 AM   #28
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FABULOUS!

As I knew it would be... I'll look at it again,and again . A little later when my brain and eyes are more cooperative.(the joys of getting up dark/early every day with the hubby)
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Old Jul 3 2011, 06:12 PM   #29
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Looks terrific! Way better than anything I could do, and I know I don't have the patience for it either, so I appreciate anyone who does.
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Old Jul 4 2011, 01:29 AM   #30
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it looks great!! I wouldn't have anything close to the patience it would take to finish a project like that. It is Amazing!
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Old Jul 5 2011, 09:16 PM   #31
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I found possible map credits for you, based on the version Mynti (owner of Pernworld MUSH) has on Pernworld's homepage:
Quote:
Saturday 7 December, 1995 Map by Mynti based on map by Niels W. Erickson and Harry Alm
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Old Jul 18 2011, 02:10 AM   #32
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SPOILER WARNING FOR DRAGON'S TIME!

Ahh, finally managed to read Dragon's Time! I can see I've got some touch-up work to do. I'll have to add plenty of new place names; Great Isle as an alternate title for Western Continent, and Western and Eastern Isle as individual names. I'll also need to add the various rivers to the island, and the (obviously eventually abandoned) Eastern Weyr (I'll also need to add that title to Monaco Bay Weyr, to avoid confusion).

Hmm...it's good to know that the Western Ring Islands are not devoid of life, as was previously thought. Perhaps I should amend my map key to include a different Grey for unmapped areas - pale grey for hospitable unmapped regions, and dark grey for inhospitable unmapped regions? Although I suppose the inclusion of a settlement will be enough to show anybody the area is fertile.

Tee hee hee, more work for me! Or at least when I find the time to do it!

UPDATE: Added the rivers and place names to the Western Continent.

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Old Jul 20 2011, 04:54 AM   #33
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Default Re: Pern Map Project

I recently placed a scan of the Hold Boundary map over my map to see where the borders differ. The Hold Boundary map is not accurate - it contradicts the information given on the main map in several places. It should really be considered a guide to the general area and shape of the real borders.

Nerat & Benden are mostly accurate. Keroon's border with Bitra is wrong - the Hold map lists it as running along the Heights, but we know that Fork Hold is in Keroon land, so it must include the Highlands that branch off the Heights. Lemos' eastern borders cut straight through a hill - this could be accurate, or it could run along the hill - and the western borders suggest that the Central Barrier Range is located entirely on Telgar land.

Igen's borders seem to run along the river between it and Telgar, but we know that South Telgar is located on the Igen side of the river, so this can't be the border. However, the border matches the shape of the hills on the south side of the river, so this could be considered the border.

Crom is where things get tricky; first their eastern border appears to cut straight through the highlands - this is probably accurate, but it makes it harder to map; easier if it runs along the edge - while the south border intersects with Ruatha and Nabol to the north of the river bay. This we know is wrong - this places Greenfields Hold in Telgar lands, so the Crom border isn't right, and yet to change the Nabol border removes Ruatha land (which I'm sure is accounted for, but I may need to check my sources again), so that's not right either.

The Ruatha-Tillek border follows the Greeney River for the most part, then apparently cuts straight through the mountain valleys and through the area to the west of Plateau Hold. I'd say the border listed on my map is the more likely - the border follows the river to the Lake, then follows the mountain range to Nabol. High Reaches-Tillek runs along the Pirot River, but the Boundary Map's borders place Keogh Hold in High Reaches instead of Crom - clearly the borders here are wrong, and Nabol's holdings extend to the north.

Fort's border with Ruatha cuts through several mountain valleys - when it would make far more sense for it to go around them, as marked on my map - and also seems to run along the river near the main holding, or somewhere along the hill near it - perhaps even going through it. The latter seems more likely as the other option places Fort Sea Hold in Ruatha territory, plus the highlands in this area are a prime setting for High Hill Hold, a Ruathan Border Hold which Nerilka flees to in her story. Finally, Boll's are the most off. I do not refer to the odd north borders which cut through the highlands (here justified, as Boll is an older Hold, and that method of allocation bears some resemblance to historical examples), but the rest, which have Gar and Peyton Holds in Boll instead of Fort. The border needs to be further to the south - which means it matches the hill and gorge pattern in the south.

Right, that's all for now. I think I need to fix Nabol and Crom's borders at some point - Crom needs to go North from near Keogh, and I think I've placed Nabol's too far south, when it could run through a gorge to the north. There's three possible options for Nabol, which is why I haven't changed it yet;

1. Nabol's borders line up with Crom's; Ruatha cannot access Crom on foot.
2. Nabol's borders line up with Crom's to the south, but the land east of the hills belongs to Ruatha (Format Currently Used On Map)
3. Nabol's borders are the ones mapped in the Boundary Map, except it does not line up with Crom.

Oh, and I updated the last post to say that I've edited my map so that it now has "Eastern Weyr" and the various rivers and island names for the Far Western Continent.
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