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Old Jul 2 2006, 06:45 PM   #1
Maduk
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Default Possible Jump to Earth?

If a dragon and rider were shown a picture of a landscape on earth, would they be able to jump there? Sorry if this idea is so dumb it's hard to answer
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Old Jul 2 2006, 08:21 PM   #2
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Default Re: Possible Jump to Earth?

Actually, I think it's possible in an AU type setting.

Imagine that every reality is a page, and all realities are stacked on top of each other.

Now - though there is an infinite number of realities, we must have something to keep realities from spawning even more...such as Pern. Because with all the extraneous Weyrs out there, and the ideas and such relative to each Weyr and each fanfic, that *could* spawn an unlimited number of Perns. So, possibly after Anne created Pern for herself and it became real in people's minds, the logistics of the place has become more and more real...as a meld between Anne's creation and the logical way physics work.

So, to answer your question - yes. Because they are not going between times and space, but between universes which is a much shorter distance.
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Old Jul 3 2006, 06:38 AM   #3
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Default Re: Possible Jump to Earth?

Without Shalyn's handy alternate universes, it's not possible. I calculated it out once (but didn't save the calc, unfortunately), and it would require the dragons to be between for a matter of YEARS to make the distance to earth. Even if you got them oxygen to breath the whole time, they surely can't maintain a jump while they sleep, and probably couldn't keep the mental focus necessary for more than a couple hours anyway. It's just too far!
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Old Jul 3 2006, 08:22 AM   #4
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Default Re: Possible Jump to Earth?

It's an interesting question. We know from Lessa's big jump that the time lag spent between lengthens on the longer jumps, but that 400years is still covered in a matter of minutes. Let's say you get an extra half-second added on to your time between for every year you go back in time. That way, Lessa is there long enough to be unconscious and on the verge of death, but she still has a chance of surviving. The exact numbers don't really matter so much as you'll see later on - 1 second per year, 2 seconds, or 0.2; space jumps on a galactic scale are feasible while the time jumps are the real killer.

Anyway, for that kind of information transfer and the perceived vs. actual timelag, you're looking at effective travel speeds via between at very close to lightspeed - [Kath does maths....] - roughly a millionth of a percent off lightspeed in fact. What this means, is that we can probably assume the same scaling across lightyears of space as well as across years of time, i.e. roughly a half second added for every light year of travel. In this scenario, for a journey of 118 ly, you're looking at roughly a minute added on to the extra time spent between. Because of special relativity, you don't need to worry about spending the whole 118 years between - if between travel was AT lightspeed it'd be effectively instantantaneous. But because you're travelling faster than newtonian physics would like, time dilation becomes your friend. Of course, there's the added factor that dragons go from one now to another, so whereas travel in a spaceship travelling at those speeds would appear to take a few minutes, but would GET you there roughly 118 years later, the dragons effectively get you there at the same NOW as you left (plus the minute of travel time). That means, we have to factor in a TIME jump as well as a distance jump.

Overall, a jump from Pern to Earth, from their now to our now, would take roughly two minutes between - half for the spatial transfer, and half for preserving agreement between clocks on each planet. If you want to get from our now in 2006 to the Pernese 9th pass now in 2700-ish+9 passes worth of time, you'll need to add an extra half second for all of those extra millenia, i.e. about another half-hour spent between.

So, with enough David-Blaine-style practise, a dragon/rider could easily survive a jump between Pern and earth, staying in OUR now, probably better than Lessa did. But the jump described in a fanfic such as Peggeth's Choice (i.e. 9th pass to 21st century) would be MUCH less easy - any rider would have no chance of surviving the full half-hour without taking an air supply with her.
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Old Jul 3 2006, 02:43 PM   #5
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Default Re: Possible Jump to Earth?

Not good at teh science and math but no need to go into that as we don't even know in what Terran time the Pern Ninth pass actually is. That and no visuals that can be used are reason enough to say it can't be done.
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Old Jul 3 2006, 03:07 PM   #6
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Default Re: Possible Jump to Earth?

I'd say no too, for the reasons given above.
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Old Jul 3 2006, 04:04 PM   #7
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Default Re: Possible Jump to Earth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans
Not good at teh science and math but no need to go into that as we don't even know in what Terran time the Pern Ninth pass actually is. That and no visuals that can be used are reason enough to say it can't be done.
Particularly with AIVAS and the restructured calendar, it wouldn't be difficult to determine what the Terran time for the Pern Ninth pass is... but I have to ask... Why would you want to?

I have to agree that the jump would be physically possible, with breathing apparatus for the rider, considering that any distance ON Pern is 8 seconds for a jump between. The time only seems to extend when jumping between times. A jump to Earth would involve jumping between times. Could the dragon actually make the jump in the requisite 15 minute window that seems to be the max a dragon can go with oxygen?
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Old Jul 3 2006, 04:32 PM   #8
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Default Re: Possible Jump to Earth?

Aivas has been out of touch with Terra for about two and a half milennium! Maybe Earth doesn't even exist anymore
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Old Jul 3 2006, 04:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: Possible Jump to Earth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookworm
I have to agree that the jump would be physically possible, with breathing apparatus for the rider, considering that any distance ON Pern is 8 seconds for a jump between. The time only seems to extend when jumping between times. A jump to Earth would involve jumping between times. Could the dragon actually make the jump in the requisite 15 minute window that seems to be the max a dragon can go with oxygen?
Yes. An extra second per light year would allow you to make the transfer from Pern to Earth in two minutes, give or take a few minutes for errors in my calculations, and maintaining the same "timezone" (i.e. 9th pass Pern to 9th pass equivalent Earth). As I said earlier, those numbers mesh in well with the between times lag that Lessa experienced.
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Old Jul 3 2006, 04:54 PM   #10
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Default Re: Possible Jump to Earth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookworm
I have to agree that the jump would be physically possible, with breathing apparatus for the rider, considering that any distance ON Pern is 8 seconds for a jump between. The time only seems to extend when jumping between times.
They found time does increase with distance, when hopping to the Red Star. Details are in AtWoP somewhere. Like I said above, I tried calculating it out based on distance alone with no time-shifting, and it was a ridiculously long length of time which has stuck in my head as having been years.
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Old Jul 3 2006, 08:11 PM   #11
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Default Re: Possible Jump to Earth?

Considering distance and not time is pointless, as any picture of Earth to be found on Pern would be over two thousand years old.
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Old Jul 3 2006, 11:21 PM   #12
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*reads Kath's post*

*head goes 'splodey*

I only got a C+ in physics and that was intro Newtonian. Go nap now. Brain hurts.
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Old Jul 4 2006, 03:10 PM   #13
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Hah, glad I'm not the only oe, Anareth! I didn't even try...
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Old Jul 4 2006, 04:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: Possible Jump to Earth?

'S'not that hard? Is it?

Bummer.

In brief, my calculations (which aren't the only way you can look at the problem) suggest half a minute per year of time travel, and one minute per light-year of space-travel (factoring the necessary time-shift as well). Don't worry about the details, just feel free to extrapolate from those numbers.

Edit. My head is filled up with spaghetti-loops. That should be seconds, not minutes...

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Old Jul 5 2006, 10:33 AM   #15
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*brain continues to dribble from ear*

There's a reason I stopped Maths and Physics at GCSE
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Old Jul 5 2006, 06:26 PM   #16
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Default Re: Possible Jump to Earth?

ChrisG had done some work with the quoted data by Aivas
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisG
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtWoP
Using this premise and adapting it to a logarithmic computation, assume that travel takes 1 second for 1,600 kilometers, 2 seconds for 10,000, 3.6 seconds for 100,000, and 4.8 for 1 million and 7 to 10 seconds for 10 million
AIVAS's calculations are based on a 3rd-order polynomial regression where

distance=

(60358.9502602*time^3)-(379965.2255564*time^2)+(725783.02487*time)-404576.749566
The biggest problem about third order polynomials is that there is a few major negative swings in the resulting values -- most notably between the 2-3.6 seconds, which is in a place you definitely should NOT see a negative distances!

Last night, I looked over the problem again, since in a previous paragraph, Aivas mentioned the function is exponential in nature. I was able to generate a potential solution using Xcell: Fx=EXP(GAMMALN(Bx+Ex)) ; Where Bx was the times listed by Aivas, and Ex was a corrective factor for the Gamma equation.


Time...Result from..............Error Correction(aka Ex).......Result from
.........ChrisG's formula.................................Fx=EXP(GAM MALN(Bx+Ex))
1..........1,600.000008........6.419316442500000.. ...... 1,600.000000
2........10,000.000030.........6.336251345050000.. .....10,000.000000
3.6....100,000.000095........5.819568176970000.... ..100,000.000000
4.8...1,000,000.000167......5.645608914508000....1 ,000,000.000000
7.6...9,660,713.360730......3.827386365818850...10 ,000,000.000000
This is an expontial function that matches Aivas's data while eliminating the negative values generated by 3rd order polynomials

E is apparently a smooth fit to the values found that will fit the points given by Aivas coresponding to ChrisG's graph


Time.........Result from...........Error Correction(aka Ex).......Result from
..............ChrisG's formula................................Fx=EXP(GAMM ALN(Bx+Ex))
2988.91..1,608,292,823,137,080..-2,970.38556907046 ....1,608,293,306,458,400.


This is the distance to Earth (~170 lt yrs) in kilometers. The time needed to make that travel was initially found using ChrisG's graph, but this error factor also lies along the smooth curve created by the other error factor points & subsequent calculation matches up on the Gamma/exponetial equation.

Where a time-shift by the dragon comes into play equates out to the distance Pern & the Rukbat system travels over the amount of time in question. Where it comes to Earth, Rukbat lies nearly perpendicular to the travel that Sol takes as it goes around the galaxy. Any travel to Earth by using pictures from Aivas will be at least 2500 Turns out of date...but the maximum possible distance Earth travels in that time is in the order of 10E12 kilometers, where the 170 lt yr distance is still in the range of 10E15 kilometers. Using vector equations, it's easy to see that even with the distance our solar system travels, it's negligible given the time to travel between.

3000 seconds is only 50 minutes, so I think it's possible to make the trip--but you'd have to come up with some sort of SCUBA-type arrangement for your dragon, as well as possible thermal insulation for the cold of between--& needless to mention that this would have to be a Post-Aivas venture

Last edited by Ryuu; Jul 5 2006 at 06:47 PM.
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Old Jul 5 2006, 06:47 PM   #17
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*beep-boop-boop* Hello, 9-1-1? Yes, I have multiple people here that are attempting to kill me by providing an overload of complex mathematical equasions, PLEASE HELP!
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Old Jul 5 2006, 07:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff
*beep-boop-boop* Hello, 9-1-1? Yes, I have multiple people here that are attempting to kill me by providing an overload of complex mathematical equasions, PLEASE HELP!
Did you know that 911 is a prime number?
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Old Jul 5 2006, 07:29 PM   #19
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*bullet to the head*
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Old Jul 6 2006, 03:00 AM   #20
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I'd completely forgotten about all the ATWOP figures
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Old Jul 6 2006, 04:09 AM   #21
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While all this is extremely interesting and definitely beyond my meagre mathemathical knowledge I feel the need to say:

don't try to explain tomorrow's science.... hmm, don't try to explain SF science (that might want to paint a picture of a society that takes place thousands of years into the furure) by today's scientific knowledge/standards...

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Old Jul 6 2006, 04:37 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans
don't try to explain tomorrow's science.... hmm, don't try to explain SF science (that might want to paint a picture of a society that takes place thousands of years into the furure) by today's scientific knowledge/standards...

There's a huge difference between trying to explain something, and trying to parametrize it. Everything that's been tried so far really fits in the latter category. The actual science behind it, real or imagined, has no bearing on that issue. At this level, it's simply just a certain amount of hand-waving in the background.
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Old Jul 6 2006, 09:42 AM   #23
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Yeah, I understand that, Kath. But it actually goes for all these kind of discussions and sometimes they tend to go of off the theoretical, hypothetical path and stray a little to our field of current understanding, right?
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Old Jul 6 2006, 10:48 AM   #24
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You know, I find it hard to believe your comments on this thread, and about Edith's project, come from the same person.


There's certainly no harm in speculation such as this, is there? And when it comes to science-fiction worldbuilding, well thought out or not, it's inevitably an extrapolation from our current understanding of the world. As far as science goes, we generally follow the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rule. So, if current science CAN explain the future-tech/magic of an SF world, then there's no reason not to use it, and short of authorial fiat, there's no need to assume that future knowledge will have any bearing on the issue at all.
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Old Jul 6 2006, 11:39 AM   #25
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There's really nothing wrong with such, Hans.

Look at StarTrek. When The Next Generation project was started, Roddenberry wanted absolutely no speeds greater than warp 10--well, that flew in the face of the original Trek, where the Enterprise had achieved warp 11 & 14 on various occassions, when the max speed of the ship was warp 8.

Lots of Trek fans were understandably irked, yet a few people took the change as a challenge. Graham Kennedy posted a few web pages that actually has considerable logic and a good explaination for what happened & why it happened in the Trek Universe other than coming out with "Because The Great Bird of the Gallaxy Said So"

If we do simular here with Pern and other works of Anne's, then issues like the "saliva-drooling thread-eating watch-whers" and the like are much less annoying to certain individuals if there can be found a reasonable explanation for them After all, Anne, herself, did the same when she consulted her science buddies when she needed background material for dragon physiology, planetary dynamics, and cultural comparisons when the strengths in her writing did not cover those issues

Quantifying things like travel between & tracing out why it's possible for Pernese natives to eat Thread is an excercise of love--the only frustrating thing is we have so little to go on when we're trying to reverse-engineer what Anne did because so much of what's in her private notes still yet haven't been revealed and integrated into the strories.

You could really help us out there, Hans, since you've had a lot more contact with Anne than we have--you could take some of these issues, discussions, and speculations to her & ask her to give us a bone or two

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Old Jul 6 2006, 03:16 PM   #26
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Hang on, what's your problem? Of course there's no problem researching and, like Kath says, if it can be explained try to explain it. I never said you shoudld not try and you definitely cannot read from my remark that there would be harm in trying to explain or research all this.

I merely wanted to insert the "warning" not to fall into the trap of trying to explain things from a SF books according current technological knowhow and standards and, I added, it was said in general since I have seen threads like this go along that way. I certainly won't be the person to tell you what to do or not to do; that would be silly.

As for if I have a split personality, Kath No, I do not. I am, however definitely human and I might word things unclearly or not in the best way or you might be misunderstanding what I meant to say, I don't know. In any case I did not post what I did to have you stop the interesting work or postings. If you thought so, that might be my wording mistake.

Ryuu... alas, will you believe Anne isn't really interested in all this? I have said it before: she wrote/writes for a living and from what I gather she is gratified by the fact that we, fans, are having such fun with her world(s) but a) she certainly gives the impression not to be interested in in dept research of her world(s) and b) according to my experience we know far more of it than Anne does Sounds silly huh but believe me, I've asked question about Pern to which Anne goes something like: "Did I write that? Than it must be so..." And when I made certain suggestions she sometimes says that I should do what I think is best With the Bloodlines/genealogies she more or less gave me the free hand but of course, with Todd as the new helmsman now I can't take much liberties... (and besides, I feel I shouldn't - and I didn't want that of responsibility anyway which would only work if they would both consult me before they create characters which would be rather silly).

To all, please do go ahead with the interesting discussion - it was certainly not my intention to dampen it!
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Old Jul 6 2006, 05:34 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans snip
I merely wanted to insert the "warning" not to fall into the trap of trying to explain things from a SF books according current technological knowhow and standards and, I added, it was said in general since I have seen threads like this go along that way. I certainly won't be the person to tell you what to do or not to do; that would be silly.
Okay. I misread you.

Certainly with between, it's not possible to fall into that mistake, since the interdimentional travel doesn't relate to anything with our current knowledge of physics--it's strickly theoretical, and even beyond what was done with Trek physics

And while I can accept that Anne's lost some enthusiam for Pern--she's getting up in years, after all--there's obviously some notes left over that Todd is making full use of, which is why several items that had been previously discussed here made their way into his books
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Old Jul 6 2006, 06:22 PM   #28
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Hans - when I first read your comment, I felt that you were telling everyone to "cease and desist" on the technical thinking.

I'm glad to see that you weren't saying so. The printed word is so open to interpretation.
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Old Jul 7 2006, 02:30 AM   #29
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Well, if there's two of you that think so, and Kath probbaly too, it was certainly my writing not being clear enough. Sorry!
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Old Jul 7 2006, 03:10 AM   #30
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equations at 8 am- not good!
something like that when we've got enough evidence and figures to make a rough calculation-thats ok. After all, we've been using pythagora's law for over 2500 years and don't tell me that's wrong! (nothing about curved space please! I'm talking Euclidean geometary here!)
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Old Jul 7 2006, 03:38 AM   #31
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That's exactly the point I was trying to make, Edith.

There are certain things we can't explain as far as Pern goes, e.g. the engines of the Yoko etc. Yes, they're powered by matter/antimatter fuel, but it's not as simple as that - the fuel is just the energy supply. And given that those ships clearly violate today's known laws of physics, speculation on the nature of those engines and how they generate the ship's FTL/Special Relativity-violation capacity, speculation would be exactly as futile/pointless as Hans implies.

As for the rest of it, including the subject matter of this thread - well, there are things we can work on and discuss. it doesn't mean that we'll come up with the right answer, as there's unlikely to be/have ever been one - but we'll reach a plausible solution, and that's the fun of discovery, innit?
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Old Jul 7 2006, 10:42 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath snip
There are certain things we can't explain as far as Pern goes, e.g. the engines of the Yoko etc. Yes, they're powered by matter/antimatter fuel, but it's not as simple as that - the fuel is just the energy supply. And given that those ships clearly violate today's known laws of physics, speculation on the nature of those engines and how they generate the ship's FTL/Special Relativity-violation capacity, speculation would be exactly as futile/pointless as Hans implies.
Not really. There are three possiblities:

a) the 15 yrs travel time was relative to the ship, in which case, the trip COULD have been STL, just relativistic enough to make a 170 ltyr trip last 15 yrs for the colonists. -- this is highly unlikely as they had just gone through a major interstellar war and also that when the Amherst arrived, they knew they were only 75 yrs after the founding of the colony before they had even contacted the folks at Honshu -- therefore, Slower than Light travel has to be incorrect.

b) they used warp drive ala Star Trek, in which case, the TOS-type warp factor was just 2.25 to make a 170 ltyr journey last only 15 yrs.

c) they used some other FTL method used in Anne's universe, the nature of which simply hasn't been revealed for the Pern stories.

Either B or C violate known physical laws, as do the psionic abilities of the Pernese natives (telepathy, teleportation, and telekinesis). All the rest that takes place in the books are POSSIBLE, even if a bit unlikely, given what we know of human nature and social interactions. Even a triple-laticed DNA-like genetic material isn't IMPOSSIBLE--just unlikely.
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As for the rest of it, including the subject matter of this thread - well, there are things we can work on and discuss. it doesn't mean that we'll come up with the right answer, as there's unlikely to be/have ever been one - but we'll reach a plausible solution, and that's the fun of discovery, innit?
exactly!
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Old Jul 7 2006, 12:08 PM   #33
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Default Re: Possible Jump to Earth?

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Originally Posted by Ryuu
Not really. There are three possiblities:

a) the 15 yrs travel time was relative to the ship, in which case, the trip COULD have been STL, just relativistic enough to make a 170 ltyr trip last 15 yrs for the colonists. -- this is highly unlikely as they had just gone through a major interstellar war and also that when the Amherst arrived, they knew they were only 75 yrs after the founding of the colony before they had even contacted the folks at Honshu -- therefore, Slower than Light travel has to be incorrect.
Exactly. And there's the fact that they expected the round-trip for potential assistance to be 10-20 years as well.

But on top of your B & C, I can think of a half-dozen different modes of FTL used in written SF. So this one is pretty open-ended... though of course, all it really means is that Anne, like many other "soft" SF authors, doesn't really bother with relativity/causality[/*cough*science*cough*] at all!

But it's good to know that I'm not the only one who still finds it fun to find plausible options for all the rest of it.
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Old Jul 7 2006, 04:18 PM   #34
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its always fun...
hey! why do you think I now have pages of notes on it!
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Old Jul 8 2006, 12:42 AM   #35
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Im not really good at math so I don't even want to try to calculate the distance, but my question is if it was possible how would earth react when they arrived?
I mean in Dragons Dawn they mentioned some pretty strict restrictions on bioengeenering from the pure human life group. Kitty Ping obviously went beyond those restrictions so how would earth react if they met a dragon?
Would they accept the reasoning that it was pern's only chance for survival or would they instead condem Kitty for her work?
Would they be afraid of the dragon and try to hurt it? I mean it has been proven that humans often fear what they do not understand so would they hurt it or would they instead try to separate dragon and rider and take the dragon for scientific study,(Not that thats very likely the seperation part I mean) Id like to think that they could accept it I mean I know I would.
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Old Jul 8 2006, 08:25 AM   #36
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I think the pure human life group was a minority faction, not the prevailing view (and were they for no gengineering at all, or just not on humans?). Besides they'd have no way of knowing the dragon was gengineered, just by looking at it, so I don't think that'd be part of the initial reaction to a dragon and rider appearing in the skies.
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Old Jul 8 2006, 02:13 PM   #37
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Plus, that long after Kitti engineered them, what're they gonna do to her?
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Old Jul 8 2006, 03:49 PM   #38
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I think that the 'Pure Humans' group would not object to bioengineering with animals - after all, the colonists bioengineered all their animals to make them suitable for colonisation. I doubt they'd have any objection to playing with any DNA bar that of humans.

I didn't get the impression that the 'Pure Humans' group was a minority group in assuch as they had little influence, since they DID manage to prevent the bioengineering of humans for water planets IIRC. A groups are 'minority' groups in that none are MAJORITY groups, but the 'Pure Humans' sounded pretty influential to me - something like a powerful Greenpeace.
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Old Jul 9 2006, 04:52 AM   #39
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Hmm... C_ris, I was under the Impression that the Pure Human Life Group wa against giving dolphins mentasynth (read: give them speech = making them more human like)?

Found the quote but it isn't 100% clear although I still think it implies that the possibility of action from the side of the Pure Human Life Group was the reason the permission for bio-engineering animals! was so grudgingly given.

From Dragonsdawn
Quote:
In order that the colonists could ensure the adaptability of Terran animals to Pern, permission to use certain of the advanced biogenetic techniques of the Eridanis - mainly mentasynth, gene paring, and chromosome enhancements - had been grudgingly granted.* Even though Pern was in an isolated area of the galaxy, the Federated Sentient Planets wanted no further disasters like the bio-alts, which had aroused the strong Pure Human Life Group.
Another quote is about an Eridani hive culture, humans from Beltrae who had advanced emphatic powers in animals, something which (quoting Dragonsdawn here) had luckily been down long before the Pure Human group became so powerful.

To me that constitutes evidence that the Pure Human Life Group was (strongly) against bioengineering animals.
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Old Jul 9 2006, 07:01 AM   #40
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Default Re: Possible Jump to Earth?

But that reference wasn't referring to bioengineering animals, it was the humans who had been altered to have a more empathic ability with animals. I think the "grudgingly" part was that they couldn't entirely ensure that these Eridani techniques, enchancements and gene pairing technology would be used exclusively with animals and not on humans as well, or worried that the mentasynth was teetering on the brink of Too Far. And it doesn't verify exactly what the bio-alts were, whether human or animal. Perhaps it could be the aquatic human adaption proposition that Crispy mentioned?

The full quote is:
Quote:
Incorporation of mentasynth, which had originally been developed by the Beltrae, a reclusive Eridani hive culture, sparked latent empathic abilities.

...

Initially, humans from Beltrae who had been "touched" were regarded with great suspicion, of course, but as soon as their remarkable empathic powers with animals and other people were realized, the technique became widespread. Many groups eventually had valued healers whose abilities had been amplified that way. Luckily, that all happened well before the Pure Human group became powerful.
I suppose it's possible that a branch of the Pure Human Life Group brought up protests for animals, but another quote that seems to enforce their Human focus rather than interfering with animal maniplulations as well -
Quote:
" *snip* But there are endless ways in which we humans could be profitably improved..."

"We are doing that, though, aren't we, Pol, dear?" Bay said kindly.

"Oh, yes, cybernetically we do, and in vitro we can correct certain gross genetic mistakes. It's true that we are allowed to use the Eridani mentasynth, though personally I don't know whether our response to it is a boon or not. It makes people too empathic with their experimental animals. But we can't do much yet, of course, with the laws that the Pure Humans forced through to prohibit drastic changes."
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