A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum  

Go Back   A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum > The Anne McCaffrey Collection > Dragonriders of Pern

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Aug 2 2010, 10:46 AM   #41
semantre
Dragonrider
Candidate
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern Series
Now Reading: Whatever I can get my hands on
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

I am in a very happy, commited relationship with my husband; we love each other very much, we have neither of us ever felt the need to roam, and we worry sick about each other when things are not as we expect. For example, he is going through eye surgery, twice, this year, and it's a terrible worry for both of us - me because I worry something will go wrong and he will be hurt, and him because he worries about the stress my worry causes me! Go figure. But I would never call us lifebonded (or soulmates, to reference a similar concept, though it is less intense on some levels). We are a couple who have been through a lot together, and it has made our relationship that much more fulfilling. I can draw several distinct parallels between F'lar and Lessa's relationship and the one I have with my husband, and there is nothing awe-inspiring about it - it is the natural byproduct of love and affection between people who are strong-willed.

You, Wyld Black Wolf, have made several statements without a clear explanation of what you are thinking of when you say 'lifebond', and in turn are decrying others for 'not being aware of a deeper bond between Lessa and F'lar'. I firmly believe that the label of lifebond, based on the only reference (in literature and reality) to this specific term, is not appropriate. However, just because I don't agree with your label doesn't mean I don't agree with some of the ideas behind it, as I have repeatedly shown if you read the entirety of each of my posts. I acknowledge that they have a very strong relationship, and that they love each other very much and would hate to live without each other. But they are also strong people - strong-minded and strong-willed - and their relationship is not the end-all, be-all of their existance. As others have already said, it sounds like you are using the word 'lifebond' for something other than what the rest of us feel that term means, from our own experiences with reading and living our lives.
semantre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 3 2010, 10:27 AM   #42
GHarris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC
Gender: M
Fan of: The White Dragon
Now Reading: Skies of Pern
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyld Black Wolf View Post
i totally agree with talisath . Lifebonds DON'T need mysticism to be there

the fact that Flar and Lessa both have a deep connection and feelings for each other SHOULD be pointed out as a sign of a lifebond. I have a Lifebond with someone and find it trying at times but wonderful to have someone who i CAN talk to. so being in a Lifebond myself i think i might be able to recognize the signs hmmm?

as for kevia and semantre they are not aware of a deeper bond between Lessa and F'lar.
why indeed did Lessa say in the book that no one but Mnementh would fly Ramoth? and F'lar's metal observation of Lessa's jealousy towards Kylara treating his Threadscore.." Flar would never let Lessa know how much he Preferred small, dark, unpredictable Lessa's company over Kylara"
This was just before the first fight with Thread, when F'lar was advising her on how long she should wait before Ramoth having a mating flight without Mnement, in case anything happened to him during the threadfall.

If it didn't meant that she loved him, it at least meant that she preferred him over all of the alternatives that she knew about.

GH
GHarris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 3 2010, 10:57 AM   #43
jube
Dolphineer Journeywoman
 
jube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Australia
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragons of Pern
Now Reading: Puzzles and my thesaurus!
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

A life bond is how the 2 people in that partnership view it. Every day brings changes that they've got to sift through in order to get to the next stage in life. Lessa and F'lar have different viewpoints on what their roles are but gradually they work through their issues and come to a mutual understanding. Well that's how I see it. Their "lifebond" would be completely different to how I view my relationship with my partner, same goes for everyone else. It's what you bring to the relationship and what you get out of it that matters to you and your respective partner, regardless of what others have to say about it (unless it became completely detrimental that it can't work out for either side).
__________________
Dolphineer Journeywoman and part-time researcher....

Find me on ebay.....

Here'tis!
jube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 3 2010, 11:42 AM   #44
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GHarris View Post
This was just before the first fight with Thread, when F'lar was advising her on how long she should wait before Ramoth having a mating flight without Mnement, in case anything happened to him during the threadfall.

If it didn't meant that she loved him, it at least meant that she preferred him over all of the alternatives that she knew about.
You can also read it as motivation for him to return. To F'lar, saving Pern is a hugely important thing, and Lessa implying that Ramoth would potentially go between unmated if he didn't come back has more weight to it than just her own desires. Even if you don't love me enough to survive this fall, you'd bloody well better do it for Pern... that's another way of looking at it.
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 3 2010, 03:41 PM   #45
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

"Lifebond", as mentioned, is a term from the Valdemar books by Misty Lackey. It's a rare relationship (except that every flippin' protagonist winds up in one, even a VERY weird one in Lavan Fire-Starter's case) where there really IS a psychic, irresistable link about which the partners have absolutely no choice (rather like a certain other Author-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named and "imprinting".)

Otherwise it's a dopey New Age-ish term made up by people who want their relationship to seem speshul-er than other people's so they create some bizarre, outside influence (God/angel/the Goddess/fairies/telepathy/Rainbow Brite/whatever made us for each other and we are bonded in our souls etc etc.) Given all relationships evolve over time, healthy ones do not remain in the infatuation stage, and anyone can walk away from any human partnership at any time (free will), and people who are of sound mental health do not, in fact, completely cease to function upon the loss of a parter, it's a rather silly term.

Neither Lessa nor F'lar would fail to go on with their lives if the other died. In DF itself, F'lar, despite being devastated by thinking Lessa and Ramoth are lost, is still able to pull himself together after a bit (we're talking hours here) and begin to think about sending for Kylara and Pridith. Lessa, meanwhile, could lose F'lar--but she would still have Ramoth and the status of being senior queen of all Pern to think of. There is no mystical/spiritual connection and one could live without the other.
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 3 2010, 07:48 PM   #46
kevia
Ballybran Resident

Tuner
 
kevia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Somewhere in the USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Nimisha's Ship
Now Reading: Crystal Line
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

__________________
Kevia
kevia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 4 2010, 09:29 AM   #47
Golden Talisath
Dragonrider storyteller
Junior Weyrwoman
 
Golden Talisath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Serbia
Gender: F
Fan of: F'lar and Lessa, DF
Now Reading: My university books
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Interesting. How did we get from ''when did F'lar start showing his feelings for Lessa'' to ''F'lar and Lessa are lifebonds'' and discussing it?
__________________
"Manuscripts don't burn", Woland, ''The Master and Margarita''

From the Weyr and from the Bowl
Bronze and Brown and Blue and Green,
Rise the dragonmen of Pern,
Aloft, on wing, seen, then unseen.
Dragonman avoid excess
Greed will bring the Weyr distress;
To the ancient Laws adhere,
Prospers thus the Dragon-weyr.
Golden Talisath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 4 2010, 10:16 AM   #48
Golden Talisath
Dragonrider storyteller
Junior Weyrwoman
 
Golden Talisath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Serbia
Gender: F
Fan of: F'lar and Lessa, DF
Now Reading: My university books
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anareth View Post
In DF itself, F'lar, despite being devastated by thinking Lessa and Ramoth are lost, is still able to pull himself together after a bit (we're talking hours here) and begin to think about sending for Kylara and Pridith.
Actually, he never sent for Kylara and Pridith:

Quote:
At the back of his mind F'lar knew he would have to keep going, but the effort was immense, the spirit gone from him. It was no comfort that they still had Pridith and Kylara to continue dragonkind, yet he delayed sending someone back for F'nor, unable to face the reality of that admission: that in sending for Pridith and Kylara, he had acknowledged the fact that Lessa and Ramoth would not return.
As we see, he knew he would have to pull himself together and try to continue without Lessa, but he didn't want to accept that she was truly gone. The thought was devastating for him.
There is a quote at the end of that chapter in which Robinton says to F'lar that he need to send for Kylara and F'nor and Fl'ar goes to the door of the Great Hall of Ruatha. It never actually says that he accepted to call for Kylara and F'nor - it could just mean that he can't listen to Robinton and Lytol anymore (he jumped on his feet a couple of minutes ago when Robinton said he aged) and wanted to be alone (they didn't let him drown his sorrow in wine, after all).
__________________
"Manuscripts don't burn", Woland, ''The Master and Margarita''

From the Weyr and from the Bowl
Bronze and Brown and Blue and Green,
Rise the dragonmen of Pern,
Aloft, on wing, seen, then unseen.
Dragonman avoid excess
Greed will bring the Weyr distress;
To the ancient Laws adhere,
Prospers thus the Dragon-weyr.
Golden Talisath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 4 2010, 10:25 AM   #49
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Talisath View Post
Actually, he never sent for Kylara and Pridith:
Anareth never said he did. 'Begin to think' about something != doing it...
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 4 2010, 10:29 AM   #50
Golden Talisath
Dragonrider storyteller
Junior Weyrwoman
 
Golden Talisath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Serbia
Gender: F
Fan of: F'lar and Lessa, DF
Now Reading: My university books
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kath View Post
Anareth never said he did. 'Begin to think' about something != doing it...
OK, my mistake, but he still never did it! He couldn't!
__________________
"Manuscripts don't burn", Woland, ''The Master and Margarita''

From the Weyr and from the Bowl
Bronze and Brown and Blue and Green,
Rise the dragonmen of Pern,
Aloft, on wing, seen, then unseen.
Dragonman avoid excess
Greed will bring the Weyr distress;
To the ancient Laws adhere,
Prospers thus the Dragon-weyr.
Golden Talisath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 4 2010, 02:49 PM   #51
semantre
Dragonrider
Candidate
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern Series
Now Reading: Whatever I can get my hands on
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Talisath View Post
OK, my mistake, but he still never did it! He couldn't!
He didn't want to, not he couldn't. Doing so would have a finality that F'lar was not ready to accept, emotionally, but he knew intellectually that he would have to. He had already resolved to do so, but was putting it off. Had Lessa not returned, he would have done it. He would have hated doing so, but it had to be done, and so, he would have done it.

And... depending on how you read it, he /did/ send for Prideth that night - the southern contingent shows up at Benden Weyr before Ramoth and Lessa get back there, but after she had reached Ruatha Hold:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Page 277? of Dragonflight, on Google Books
Even as the five Weyrs had been settling around Ruatha Valley, F'nor had been compelled to bring forward in time his southern weyrfolk.
It never specifies when, exactly, the call to F'nor was sent - it could have been before Lessa and Ramoth appeared, or after.
semantre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 5 2010, 11:20 AM   #52
Dragongirl
.:. Baroness von Imp .:.
Weyrling
 
Dragongirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Gender: F
Fan of: I do not 'fan'. I obsess.
Now Reading: The Book of Lost Things - John Connelly.
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Talisath View Post
OK, my mistake, but he still never did it! He couldn't!
Okay, so semantre has already said most of what I was thinking, so I'm just going to place emphasis on the character of F'lar in conjunction with this. Yes, F'lar had realised he was in love with Lessa by this point, and emotionally, the idea of sending for Pridith and Kylara was something that tore him to pieces. That's how it works.

I won't speak for anyone else here, but I know that one of the hardest things to do - and often the part you're least able to cope with emotionally, if not for a very long time - is doing something that makes the loss of someone a finality. There's a reason they have those processes of grieving...you do go through a period where you're in denial, and can't handle the idea of doing something that will force you to acknowledge that the person you lost is not coming back. And being forced to acknowledge it only makes you angry and scared - F'lar was the latter when Robinton voiced sending for Pridith out loud, so emotionally, no, he wasn't ready to do something so final.

But he didn't have a choice. There's no 'couldn't' about it; he is the leader of the only fighting force against Thread at the time, and even if he's an emotional mess, he knew he had to keep going. A lot of emphasis is put on the fact that F'lar is a very rational and intelligent man - as much as it hurts, he was not going to jeopoardize Pern and not send for it's last queen at the time just because he was grieving for Lessa and Ramoth.

So there's no 'couldn't' about it. He was going to do it, and for all we know, he did do it in the interval between us reading him storming out of Ruatha, and seeing Lessa and the Oldtimers return.

Quote:
Originally Posted by semantre View Post

It never specifies when, exactly, the call to F'nor was sent - it could have been before Lessa and Ramoth appeared, or after.
I'm not sure...was he actually called at all? I always thought he just came back because it was too much on those who'd been sent back. IIRC, F'nor looked like crap thrown against a brick wall when he visited F'lar and Lessa the night of the first Threadfall, and apparently it took the lot of them a full day and night to recover.
__________________
Paired with Calenlily. Woo, I has a stalker! *heart*

Those who seek to create war are mongrels and fools, but the blood they spill as a result is never meaningless. - Lucrezia Noin

When someone is grieving for what they've lost, you can't really say you know how they feel, or how they should handle things. Because even if you've lost too, everyone grieves differently. Anyone who says otherwise are presumptuous idiots.-Hayley (My friend can be an astonishing wealth of wisdom)
Dragongirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 5 2010, 01:23 PM   #53
Eriflor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Gender: F
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Yes, the group were sent back 10 turns to breed more dragons to fight Thread, and were due to return in time for the second Threadfall. The return time would have been set before they left.

Eriflor.
Eriflor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 5 2010, 01:58 PM   #54
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

What Dragongirl said--F'lar may have loved Lessa, but ultimately he served Pern above all things. If he wanted to stay leader, and at this point it would be a disaster if he didn't (who would take over? R'gul? T'bor? S'lel? Not a lot of options and none very good!) then he as Weyrleader needed a senior queen. If Lessa and Ramoth are dead, the only adult queen on Pern is Kylara and Pridith. He has no choice--she would have to come back and be senior Weyrwoman. Even if, as has been theorized, Pridith laid another queen at some point between her first clutch and their return in time (unlikely, but it would answer some Anne-consistency gaps in where those queens came from in DQ), it still wouldn't be ready to rise any time soon. ESPECIALLY if Lessa had failed and old Weyrs never came forward, Pridith was the Weyr's only hope. F'lar knows this--no queens mean no dragons, no dragons mean Thread falls unchecked and Pern is doomed. His personal grief would have to take a backseat.
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 6 2010, 12:53 AM   #55
Eriflor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Gender: F
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anareth View Post
<SNIPPED>
Even if, as has been theorized, Pridith laid another queen at some point between her first clutch and their return in time (unlikely, but it would answer some Anne-consistency gaps in where those queens came from in DQ), it still wouldn't be ready to rise any time soon. ESPECIALLY if Lessa had failed and old Weyrs never came forward, Pridith was the Weyr's only hope. F'lar knows this--no queens mean no dragons, no dragons mean Thread falls unchecked and Pern is doomed. His personal grief would have to take a backseat.
How many extra queens in DQ are we talking about? They started with 2 golds, and 7 turns went by till the events in DQ. A gold has 2 clutches a turn, and if more golds are needed, they lay gold eggs --- even Nemorth managed one. At the time of DQ, there were 3 golds in Benden's queens' wing, a gold egg, and possibly one or two golds in training. Southern Weyr had Pridith, Wirenth and Ralenth. That's 4 new breeding-age golds in 7 turns, one egg, and any younger queens we're not told about, in both Weyrs.

Eriflor.
Eriflor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 6 2010, 08:25 AM   #56
Golden Talisath
Dragonrider storyteller
Junior Weyrwoman
 
Golden Talisath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Serbia
Gender: F
Fan of: F'lar and Lessa, DF
Now Reading: My university books
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriflor View Post
How many extra queens in DQ are we talking about? They started with 2 golds, and 7 turns went by till the events in DQ. A gold has 2 clutches a turn, and if more golds are needed, they lay gold eggs --- even Nemorth managed one. At the time of DQ, there were 3 golds in Benden's queens' wing, a gold egg, and possibly one or two golds in training. Southern Weyr had Pridith, Wirenth and Ralenth. That's 4 new breeding-age golds in 7 turns, one egg, and any younger queens we're not told about, in both Weyrs.

Eriflor.
And consider that there are more queens from the past who can produce clutches.
__________________
"Manuscripts don't burn", Woland, ''The Master and Margarita''

From the Weyr and from the Bowl
Bronze and Brown and Blue and Green,
Rise the dragonmen of Pern,
Aloft, on wing, seen, then unseen.
Dragonman avoid excess
Greed will bring the Weyr distress;
To the ancient Laws adhere,
Prospers thus the Dragon-weyr.
Golden Talisath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 6 2010, 08:29 AM   #57
Golden Talisath
Dragonrider storyteller
Junior Weyrwoman
 
Golden Talisath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Serbia
Gender: F
Fan of: F'lar and Lessa, DF
Now Reading: My university books
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragongirl View Post
But he didn't have a choice. There's no 'couldn't' about it; he is the leader of the only fighting force against Thread at the time, and even if he's an emotional mess, he knew he had to keep going. A lot of emphasis is put on the fact that F'lar is a very rational and intelligent man - as much as it hurts, he was not going to jeopoardize Pern and not send for it's last queen at the time just because he was grieving for Lessa and Ramoth.

So there's no 'couldn't' about it. He was going to do it, and for all we know, he did do it in the interval between us reading him storming out of Ruatha, and seeing Lessa and the Oldtimers return.
You're right, he wasn't going to leave Pern unguarded even if Lessa and Ramoth didn't return, but he was delaying calling for Pridith and Kylara as much as possible.
But he did call the, eventually, along with the others from the South, because he needed all the dragons he could get for the next Threadfall.
__________________
"Manuscripts don't burn", Woland, ''The Master and Margarita''

From the Weyr and from the Bowl
Bronze and Brown and Blue and Green,
Rise the dragonmen of Pern,
Aloft, on wing, seen, then unseen.
Dragonman avoid excess
Greed will bring the Weyr distress;
To the ancient Laws adhere,
Prospers thus the Dragon-weyr.
Golden Talisath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 6 2010, 10:16 AM   #58
semantre
Dragonrider
Candidate
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern Series
Now Reading: Whatever I can get my hands on
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Talisath View Post
You're right, he wasn't going to leave Pern unguarded even if Lessa and Ramoth didn't return, but he was delaying calling for Pridith and Kylara as much as possible.
But he did call the, eventually, along with the others from the South, because he needed all the dragons he could get for the next Threadfall.
Did he need them for the next Fall? The other Weyrs all met the next several Threadfalls, and lent F'lar wings to support him until Benden was fully functional. I got the impression that the riders from Southern, with the exception of a very few (like F'nor) didn't attend that fall, because they were still recovering.

Dragongirl, I assumed from the wordchoice of 'compelled' that F'nor was given instructions at that time, rather than acting on his own initiative or following a pre-arranged plan. That said, obviously travelling through time has a lot of twists, and it isn't clear if F'nor's team was only supposed to be in the past for a certain amount of time, or whether they gave up on staying longer and came back to a time they knew was 'safe'. Returning before the second Threadfall would be a good marker for when to return to, because that gave several days from when they 'left' to go into the past, and no risk of meeting themselves upon their return. I don't think F'lar assumed they would be functional immediately, after seeing how worn out Lessa was, and F'nor, after their trips between time. Of course, the entire concept behind the time-travel involved in the southern expedition has a number of weak points, and could to be poked into pieces pretty easily. But that's a discussion for another thread.

Last edited by semantre; Aug 6 2010 at 10:18 AM. Reason: rephrased first paragraph to make more sense.
semantre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 6 2010, 10:48 AM   #59
Golden Talisath
Dragonrider storyteller
Junior Weyrwoman
 
Golden Talisath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Serbia
Gender: F
Fan of: F'lar and Lessa, DF
Now Reading: My university books
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by semantre View Post
Did he need them for the next Fall? The other Weyrs all met the next several Threadfalls, and lent F'lar wings to support him until Benden was fully functional. I got the impression that the riders from Southern, with the exception of a very few (like F'nor) didn't attend that fall, because they were still recovering.
I meant he needed them, and probably called them, as we all are assuming, before Lessa and the Weyrs came to the 9th Pass. What happened later was, well, later, but before F'lar saw that Lessa was back, and that he now has so many dragon and riders to fight Thread with, he needed his people from the Southern Continent as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by semantre View Post
Dragongirl, I assumed from the wordchoice of 'compelled' that F'nor was given instructions at that time, rather than acting on his own initiative or following a pre-arranged plan. That said, obviously travelling through time has a lot of twists, and it isn't clear if F'nor's team was only supposed to be in the past for a certain amount of time, or whether they gave up on staying longer and came back to a time they knew was 'safe'.
F'lar and Lessa assumed (or even knew) that everything will go well in the South (not to mention that the clutch Prideth produced show them that everything, at least so far, was going all right), and so arranged for them to grow and be ready for the next Fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by semantre View Post
I don't think F'lar assumed they would be functional immediately, after seeing how worn out Lessa was, and F'nor, after their trips between time. Of course, the entire concept behind the time-travel involved in the southern expedition has a number of weak points, and could to be poked into pieces pretty easily. But that's a discussion for another thread.
If I remember right, they return two days before the Fall, and F'nor had been returning a couple of times before, so they would have some time to recover from any stress timetravel would cause.
__________________
"Manuscripts don't burn", Woland, ''The Master and Margarita''

From the Weyr and from the Bowl
Bronze and Brown and Blue and Green,
Rise the dragonmen of Pern,
Aloft, on wing, seen, then unseen.
Dragonman avoid excess
Greed will bring the Weyr distress;
To the ancient Laws adhere,
Prospers thus the Dragon-weyr.
Golden Talisath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 6 2010, 11:40 AM   #60
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

I think the problem is the fuzziness on ages of Benden/Southern queens (all of whom must be descended from each other until AFTER DQ, and even then the Southern queens don't produce any golds once they go South) and where exactly some were born, especially Wirenth and the other junior queen at Southern--some things in the text suggest Wirenth is Mnementh x Ramoth, but it's more or less stated that Brekke Impressed at Southern, meaning she would either have to be Orth x Pridith, or the egg was moved there, UNLESS Pridith clutched another queen first who laid a queen in her first clutch (made more likely by that queen have been clutched 'downtime' giving her extra time to mature, have Wirenth, and for Wirenth to be just maturing as DQ starts.) The fact that the amount of time between DF and DQ and that passes during the book is very fuzzy and in some cases doesn't fit at all (notably Jaxom's age throughout the book) makes it even harder to figure.

But the point still stands, Pridith was at that point the only fertile adult queen on Pern if Lessa's plan failed and she and Ramoth were dead or lost in the past (which amounts to the same thing) and while for personal reasons F'lar was less than thrilled with the prospect and probably would have liked time to grieve, he was ready to recall them--he got a few HOURS to be upset, not days or weeks. Time was a luxury he didn't have.

He also knew the Southern experiment wasnt' working--F'nor had come back to tell him about the stress, Kylara going back to watch herself, riders being driven half-nuts by being in two places at once--so he wasn't going to get any more 'spare time' to breed extra queens. Unlike Lessa at the other end of the scene, who has 400 years to spare, F'lar has no more time.

Has someone ever written that fic? Where Lessa fails somehow and doesn't come back and F'lar and Kylara have to take over? Could be interesting. Kylara in DF isn't a psycho beyotch, just vain and a bit bitter she wasn't the one to Impress first. How does T'bor take 'losing' her to F'lar? And given how F'lar's always treated T'bor in DF, he's back to 'third man' as F'nor is pretty clearly F'lar's right hand and the one who knows EXACTLY how the Experiment's working and what the grand scheme is. And F'lar calling Kylara back and making her Weyrwoman to his Leader without waiting for her to rise is a BIG slap to tradition, unless he planned to leave her nominally junior (outright silly, especially if Pridith is the ONLY queen, grown or not) and himself nominal leader until her next flight. R'gul and the other older bronze riders = not thrilled. T'bor might feel marginalized (and remember he was Lessa's 'first choice'--ambitious and better than R'gul but more easily manipulated.) Kylara would be an entirely different person--on the one hand, yay, she now has what she thought she wanted, on the other...oh crap, Pern really IS up a creek and her queen is their last hope (and it would seem likely that, F'lar or not, the other bronze riders would use Lessa's disappearnce to justify a return to the policy of "QUEENS DON'T FLY or at least they don't fly between.")

Heck, what if only some of the Oldtimers make it forward, and Lessa's not one of them (gets hopelessly disoriented when she's in three or four places at once on the last jump, for example.) Now she's saved Pern, but been lost, so Kylara's succeeding a dead heroine, the Oldtimers aren't as huge a block...lots of places to go with that.
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 6 2010, 11:53 AM   #61
GHarris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC
Gender: M
Fan of: The White Dragon
Now Reading: Skies of Pern
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anareth View Post
Has someone ever written that fic? Where Lessa fails somehow and doesn't come back and F'lar and Kylara have to take over? Could be interesting. Kylara in DF isn't a psycho beyotch, just vain and a bit bitter she wasn't the one to Impress first. How does T'bor take 'losing' her to F'lar? And given how F'lar's always treated T'bor in DF, he's back to 'third man' as F'nor is pretty clearly F'lar's right hand and the one who knows EXACTLY how the Experiment's working and what the grand scheme is. And F'lar calling Kylara back and making her Weyrwoman to his Leader without waiting for her to rise is a BIG slap to tradition, unless he planned to leave her nominally junior (outright silly, especially if Pridith is the ONLY queen, grown or not) and himself nominal leader until her next flight. R'gul and the other older bronze riders = not thrilled. T'bor might feel marginalized (and remember he was Lessa's 'first choice'--ambitious and better than R'gul but more easily manipulated.) Kylara would be an entirely different person--on the one hand, yay, she now has what she thought she wanted, on the other...oh crap, Pern really IS up a creek and her queen is their last hope (and it would seem likely that, F'lar or not, the other bronze riders would use Lessa's disappearnce to justify a return to the policy of "QUEENS DON'T FLY or at least they don't fly between.")
I don't know. Compare it to Ista when D'ram retires / His Weyrmate dies.

At that point in time, there was no Senior Queen, there were several Junior Queens, and the next one to have a mating flight was going to be the Senior Queen. D'ram appointed an interim Weyrleader, who was the second-in-charge at Ista. But whoever flew the next Queen was going to be the Weyrleader. But until D'ram retired, he was still the Weyrleader. (Now, IIRC, the second in charge had flown the most junior queen recently.)

How is that much different than what would happen at Benden until the next mating flight, if Lessa was lost.
The next queen to rise and mate would become the Senior Queen (it is just that there really is no competition for this).
Whoever flies that Queen becomes the Weyrleader.

Isn't that also what happened after Jora/Nemorth died?
R'gul stayed the Weyrleader.
Lessa was training to become the Weyrwoman, but she technically wasn't until Ramoth had her first mating flight. It's just that someone had to do the job.
When Ramoth finally mated, Lessa officially became the Weyrwoman, and F'lar, on the basis of Mnementh flying Ramoth, became the Weyrleader.

GH

F'lar would remain Weyrleader until the next mating flight
GHarris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 6 2010, 11:58 AM   #62
Golden Talisath
Dragonrider storyteller
Junior Weyrwoman
 
Golden Talisath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Serbia
Gender: F
Fan of: F'lar and Lessa, DF
Now Reading: My university books
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anareth View Post
Has someone ever written that fic? Where Lessa fails somehow and doesn't come back and F'lar and Kylara have to take over? Could be interesting. Kylara in DF isn't a psycho beyotch, just vain and a bit bitter she wasn't the one to Impress first. How does T'bor take 'losing' her to F'lar? And given how F'lar's always treated T'bor in DF, he's back to 'third man' as F'nor is pretty clearly F'lar's right hand and the one who knows EXACTLY how the Experiment's working and what the grand scheme is. And F'lar calling Kylara back and making her Weyrwoman to his Leader without waiting for her to rise is a BIG slap to tradition, unless he planned to leave her nominally junior (outright silly, especially if Pridith is the ONLY queen, grown or not) and himself nominal leader until her next flight. R'gul and the other older bronze riders = not thrilled. T'bor might feel marginalized (and remember he was Lessa's 'first choice'--ambitious and better than R'gul but more easily manipulated.) Kylara would be an entirely different person--on the one hand, yay, she now has what she thought she wanted, on the other...oh crap, Pern really IS up a creek and her queen is their last hope (and it would seem likely that, F'lar or not, the other bronze riders would use Lessa's disappearnce to justify a return to the policy of "QUEENS DON'T FLY or at least they don't fly between.")

Heck, what if only some of the Oldtimers make it forward, and Lessa's not one of them (gets hopelessly disoriented when she's in three or four places at once on the last jump, for example.) Now she's saved Pern, but been lost, so Kylara's succeeding a dead heroine, the Oldtimers aren't as huge a block...lots of places to go with that.
The question is, how will Kylara take all of that? She is strong, but how strong are we talking about? True, she's only vain in DF and making her senior Weyrwomen to F'lar as Weyrleader might change her (though she would probably be still vain, if not even more). How would she take the fact that Lessa's disappearance is used by the other bronze riders to ground her and Pridith? More fights between the dragons is not something the Weyr need, not at a hard time like this, anyway.
I don't know about the fact that F'lar would make Kylara his Weyrwomen immediately. Of course, he couldn't just step down and let T'bor take over and wait until Prideth flies again so he can regain his position. On the other hand, making Kylara his mate and Weyrwomen and keeping the position of Weyrleader without Pridith being flown by Mnementh first can again cause some major fights between the riders, and there's trouble again.
If Kylara really does become Weyrwomen of Benden to F'lar as Weyrleader, and some of the Oldtimers make it to the 9th Pass, what would then happen? F'lar and Lessa have been changing Traditions and the Oldtimers mostly didn't like it, but were silent until the end. With Kylara as Weyrwomen, do you think that F'lar would be able to change Traditions like he did with Lessa? Would Kylara support him and have the strength to continue doing so even after she saw that the Oldtimers were against it? You have to keep in mind that F'lar position would probably be a little jeopoardized by the fact that he was the one who allowed Lessa and Ramoth to fly between, so probably the other riders would try to take his place (like R'gul, as he did when he thought that F'lar was losing his mind after Lessa and the Weyrs came forward). And he would probably still be a mess because of the loss of Lessa (he wouldn't show it in public, but privately probably would). Knowing Kylara, she would mock him for that, and that would lead to some serious conflict between the two.
On the other hand... if some of the Weyrs did come forward, F'lar would probably step down from the position of Weyrleader (like he tried even after Lessa returned), out of feeling he's not right for a Weyrleader and personal grief, and there would be no one to change Tradition.
Wow, this is some serious jumping out of topic here!
__________________
"Manuscripts don't burn", Woland, ''The Master and Margarita''

From the Weyr and from the Bowl
Bronze and Brown and Blue and Green,
Rise the dragonmen of Pern,
Aloft, on wing, seen, then unseen.
Dragonman avoid excess
Greed will bring the Weyr distress;
To the ancient Laws adhere,
Prospers thus the Dragon-weyr.

Last edited by Golden Talisath; Aug 6 2010 at 12:17 PM.
Golden Talisath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 7 2010, 09:09 AM   #63
vyon
Senior Member
 
vyon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Gender: F
Fan of: Harper Hall
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

And what about the possibility that Kylara would play the oldtimer weyrleaders off against each other and F'lar?
vyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 8 2010, 03:05 PM   #64
Golden Talisath
Dragonrider storyteller
Junior Weyrwoman
 
Golden Talisath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Serbia
Gender: F
Fan of: F'lar and Lessa, DF
Now Reading: My university books
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vyon View Post
And what about the possibility that Kylara would play the oldtimer weyrleaders off against each other and F'lar?
Quite possible.
__________________
"Manuscripts don't burn", Woland, ''The Master and Margarita''

From the Weyr and from the Bowl
Bronze and Brown and Blue and Green,
Rise the dragonmen of Pern,
Aloft, on wing, seen, then unseen.
Dragonman avoid excess
Greed will bring the Weyr distress;
To the ancient Laws adhere,
Prospers thus the Dragon-weyr.
Golden Talisath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 10 2010, 05:01 AM   #65
Dragongirl
.:. Baroness von Imp .:.
Weyrling
 
Dragongirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Gender: F
Fan of: I do not 'fan'. I obsess.
Now Reading: The Book of Lost Things - John Connelly.
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Unless F'lar's somehow mentally incapacitated, I doubt he'd let it get far. He put up with Lessa before then, and even Kylara was known to be wary of going up against Lessa in anything of that nature.

Besides, F'lar is hardly a poster boy for straight and narrow in politics himself. He'd probably almost expect Kylara to try something sneaky. Especially if she doesn't get her own way, or lets spite and jealousy get in the way...which is possible, considering F'lar would likely still be stuck emotionally on Lessa for a while after even if she did die. From what I've seen of Kylara, she wouldn't like that at all. It'd be the equivalent of being spurned by him all over again.
__________________
Paired with Calenlily. Woo, I has a stalker! *heart*

Those who seek to create war are mongrels and fools, but the blood they spill as a result is never meaningless. - Lucrezia Noin

When someone is grieving for what they've lost, you can't really say you know how they feel, or how they should handle things. Because even if you've lost too, everyone grieves differently. Anyone who says otherwise are presumptuous idiots.-Hayley (My friend can be an astonishing wealth of wisdom)
Dragongirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 10 2010, 01:25 PM   #66
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragongirl View Post
Unless F'lar's somehow mentally incapacitated, I doubt he'd let it get far. He put up with Lessa before then, and even Kylara was known to be wary of going up against Lessa in anything of that nature.

Besides, F'lar is hardly a poster boy for straight and narrow in politics himself. He'd probably almost expect Kylara to try something sneaky. Especially if she doesn't get her own way, or lets spite and jealousy get in the way...which is possible, considering F'lar would likely still be stuck emotionally on Lessa for a while after even if she did die. From what I've seen of Kylara, she wouldn't like that at all. It'd be the equivalent of being spurned by him all over again.
Yep. I cannot see Kylara getting REMOTELY as out of hand with F'lar--remember, he 'tamed', for lack of a better word, the woman who manipulated him into killing someone. Kylara, at heart, is a vain, spoiled girl who needs a firm hand, which T'bor never gave her and Meron didn't want to (except in the most literal non-G-rated sense.) I can see F'lar taking Lessa's loss as not only a personal slap about getting too close (but remember, he does have a stronger bond to get him through--Mnementh) but also a lesson learned on giving the Weyrwoman TOO much rein. He would do what he had to do to keep Kylara in line.

Another variable--Kylara without being banished to Southern in the current time, without supervision, without the constant feeling of being second-best to Lessa, is not going to be the Kylara in DQ.
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 10 2010, 01:33 PM   #67
Golden Talisath
Dragonrider storyteller
Junior Weyrwoman
 
Golden Talisath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Serbia
Gender: F
Fan of: F'lar and Lessa, DF
Now Reading: My university books
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anareth View Post
Another variable--Kylara without being banished to Southern in the current time, without supervision, without the constant feeling of being second-best to Lessa, is not going to be the Kylara in DQ.
Maybe. But if F'lar doesn't treat her with love and respect that she wants from him, and if she knows he only accepts her by his side because he has no choice - maybe later he'll forget about Lessa and, after Pern gets more queens and Weyrwomens he goes for one of them, but until then, he needs Kylara - she will be jealous and probably try something to get back at him.
__________________
"Manuscripts don't burn", Woland, ''The Master and Margarita''

From the Weyr and from the Bowl
Bronze and Brown and Blue and Green,
Rise the dragonmen of Pern,
Aloft, on wing, seen, then unseen.
Dragonman avoid excess
Greed will bring the Weyr distress;
To the ancient Laws adhere,
Prospers thus the Dragon-weyr.
Golden Talisath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 10 2010, 09:04 PM   #68
semantre
Dragonrider
Candidate
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern Series
Now Reading: Whatever I can get my hands on
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

He only needs her until Pridith lays another gold, and then she's in trouble.
semantre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 11 2010, 03:33 AM   #69
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Balls. It's pretty impossible to ditch a senior queen.
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 11 2010, 03:47 AM   #70
Dragongirl
.:. Baroness von Imp .:.
Weyrling
 
Dragongirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Gender: F
Fan of: I do not 'fan'. I obsess.
Now Reading: The Book of Lost Things - John Connelly.
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Talisath View Post
Maybe. But if F'lar doesn't treat her with love and respect that she wants from him, and if she knows he only accepts her by his side because he has no choice
She wanted his love and respect? Was I missing something, someone? Anyone? From what I know of the woman, she's so full of her own vanity and egotism that the reason she kept pursuing him was a) He was a good luuuurver and b) she was pissed off that he chose Lessa to hook up with over her. Lessa, who was, in her own eyes, less of a 'woman' and 'too busy pining over babies'. Or something like that.

Quote:
- maybe later he'll forget about Lessa and, after Pern gets more queens and Weyrwomens he goes for one of them, but until then, he needs Kylara - she will be jealous and probably try something to get back at him.
Anareth summed it up better than I did - Kylara is, at heart, a self-centred, egotistical, spoilt little Holder's daughter. Her idea of getting back at people was sleeping with Meron and turning up in the bride's colour at her half-sister's wedding. Not very subtle, if you ask me. But then, I haven't read DQ for a while, so if anyone has anything more subtle that Kylara ever engineered politically, put it out there.

As opposed to F'lar, who has proven multiple times that he can be, as TV Tropes would name it, a Magnificient Bastard. He's a natural born manipulator just as much as Lessa is, and combines that with a scary lot of patience. And he's not afraid to get his hands dirty and 'play the game', either.

In other words, he's far sneakier and more subtle than Kylara will ever be. The fact he 'tames' and continues to match Lessa years on, a woman who could manipulate men to her bidding even before she became Weyrwoman of Pern, speaks for itself. Kylara won't get anything past him for long...unless she say, manipulates T'bor. But T'bor's such a doormat when it comes to F'lar that F'lar would probably just have to give him the evil eye and he'll tell him everything Kylara might have been up to.

Quote:
Another variable--Kylara without being banished to Southern in the current time, without supervision, without the constant feeling of being second-best to Lessa, is not going to be the Kylara in DQ.
I think she'd still be a self-centred, vain cow, but possibly one who's actually learnt subtlety and better things to put her strengths into. I definitely don't see her slacking off if circumstances did change; she'd have Lessa kicking her ass on one side, and possibly Manora on the other.

Or, you know, considering Lessa's as jealous and suspicious as Kylara, if not more, it's possible Kylara could have been transferred to Fort under Mardra, or something. You know, before the giant plothole that came with DQ, when Mardra seemed awesome and not six different kinds of crazy. How do you think she would have turned out under someone like that?
__________________
Paired with Calenlily. Woo, I has a stalker! *heart*

Those who seek to create war are mongrels and fools, but the blood they spill as a result is never meaningless. - Lucrezia Noin

When someone is grieving for what they've lost, you can't really say you know how they feel, or how they should handle things. Because even if you've lost too, everyone grieves differently. Anyone who says otherwise are presumptuous idiots.-Hayley (My friend can be an astonishing wealth of wisdom)
Dragongirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 11 2010, 07:17 AM   #71
Golden Talisath
Dragonrider storyteller
Junior Weyrwoman
 
Golden Talisath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Serbia
Gender: F
Fan of: F'lar and Lessa, DF
Now Reading: My university books
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragongirl View Post
Or, you know, considering Lessa's as jealous and suspicious as Kylara, if not more, it's possible Kylara could have been transferred to Fort under Mardra, or something. You know, before the giant plothole that came with DQ, when Mardra seemed awesome and not six different kinds of crazy. How do you think she would have turned out under someone like that?
Wow, I don't think that would be good, considering that Mardra turns out hating F'lar and Lessa at the end, having someone like Kylara at her side would not be good for Benden.
__________________
"Manuscripts don't burn", Woland, ''The Master and Margarita''

From the Weyr and from the Bowl
Bronze and Brown and Blue and Green,
Rise the dragonmen of Pern,
Aloft, on wing, seen, then unseen.
Dragonman avoid excess
Greed will bring the Weyr distress;
To the ancient Laws adhere,
Prospers thus the Dragon-weyr.
Golden Talisath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 11 2010, 07:27 AM   #72
Dragongirl
.:. Baroness von Imp .:.
Weyrling
 
Dragongirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Gender: F
Fan of: I do not 'fan'. I obsess.
Now Reading: The Book of Lost Things - John Connelly.
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

...that's why I said "before that giant plothole that is DQ, when Mardra was awesome".

By which I meant, putting Kylara with Mardra when she seems to "not be six kinds of crazy" like she inexplicably - or hazily explained as to why - she becomes like she does in DQ. I didn't say "put her with Mardra when she's like she is in DQ". And it's not just Mardra I'm referring to with the speculating...there's others, like Fanna of Ista.
__________________
Paired with Calenlily. Woo, I has a stalker! *heart*

Those who seek to create war are mongrels and fools, but the blood they spill as a result is never meaningless. - Lucrezia Noin

When someone is grieving for what they've lost, you can't really say you know how they feel, or how they should handle things. Because even if you've lost too, everyone grieves differently. Anyone who says otherwise are presumptuous idiots.-Hayley (My friend can be an astonishing wealth of wisdom)
Dragongirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 11 2010, 11:07 AM   #73
Golden Talisath
Dragonrider storyteller
Junior Weyrwoman
 
Golden Talisath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Serbia
Gender: F
Fan of: F'lar and Lessa, DF
Now Reading: My university books
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragongirl View Post
...that's why I said "before that giant plothole that is DQ, when Mardra was awesome".

By which I meant, putting Kylara with Mardra when she seems to "not be six kinds of crazy" like she inexplicably - or hazily explained as to why - she becomes like she does in DQ. I didn't say "put her with Mardra when she's like she is in DQ". And it's not just Mardra I'm referring to with the speculating...there's others, like Fanna of Ista.
Oh... OK... sorry...
Anyway... I think the events that follow and Kylara's behavior would depend on the behaviors of others. Meaning that, if the Oldtimers rebel like they did in DQ, Kylara would have to choose sides. Which one she chooses depends, again, on the behavior of others towards her. If she still sees herself as someone who is pushed aside by Benden and the others, she would probably take the Oldtimers side. If she stays with Mardra long enough, she may try to use them, or the Oldtimers could make her believe that what they're doing is the right thing.
On the other hand, if thing don't go the way they did in DQ, Kylara could end up becoming Weyrwomen after Mardra (or any other WW she is under). Or she may again be jealous for not being the head Weyrwomen and again try plotting against everyone. In any case, I don't think being second to any WW would be something Kylara would like, but if it's a strong WW, she may be controlled and stopped before she does anything like in DQ.
__________________
"Manuscripts don't burn", Woland, ''The Master and Margarita''

From the Weyr and from the Bowl
Bronze and Brown and Blue and Green,
Rise the dragonmen of Pern,
Aloft, on wing, seen, then unseen.
Dragonman avoid excess
Greed will bring the Weyr distress;
To the ancient Laws adhere,
Prospers thus the Dragon-weyr.
Golden Talisath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 11 2010, 12:48 PM   #74
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

I think Kylara starts OFF as a stereotypical spoiled girl--but the fact alone that she Impresses a queen suggests the potential is there for better. The problem is in the DF/DQ inter-book period, she's kept at the back end of nowhere, alone, with (instead of Magnificent Bastard F'lar) a fairly weak-willed, tempermental and not-very-mature-himself Weyrleader in T'bor. Most people outgrow the spoiled phase, especially when it's demonstrated to them they CAN be responsible adults, but Kylara's never really given reason or opportunity to do so--Lessa returns and instead of the Northern Weyr she was promised, Kylara is told "You're staying in the Pern equivalent of the Wild West, a thousand miles from anywhere, and you're going to run a hospital. kthnxbye." Kylara is not the type best dealt with by sending her to Coventry--I think she'd be a radically different character if she'd been forced into what she thought she wanted--leadership of what becomes the premiere Weyr on Pern, at the start of the first Pass in centuries.

And assuming Kylara would remain as she did in DQ also overlooks another important character--how does Pridith change if she's senior queen of Benden with Mnementh (easily the most clever dragon in any of the books except for Ruth, and I'd say Ruth gets his brains from the male side) as her weyrmate? When instead of having only a couple bronzes and injuries sent south, she's surrounded by the finest males on Pern and deferred to as Senior of a proper Weyr?

And we KNOW the Queen Fight doesn't happen in this case, as F'lar would not have tolerated the thing with Meron for any length of time (assuming it started at all if Kylara's Senior of Benden.)
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 11 2010, 05:56 PM   #75
Golden Talisath
Dragonrider storyteller
Junior Weyrwoman
 
Golden Talisath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Serbia
Gender: F
Fan of: F'lar and Lessa, DF
Now Reading: My university books
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anareth View Post
And assuming Kylara would remain as she did in DQ also overlooks another important character--how does Pridith change if she's senior queen of Benden with Mnementh (easily the most clever dragon in any of the books except for Ruth, and I'd say Ruth gets his brains from the male side) as her weyrmate? When instead of having only a couple bronzes and injuries sent south, she's surrounded by the finest males on Pern and deferred to as Senior of a proper Weyr?
But, as I remember, Prideth wasn't the problem. She liked Southern and liked both T'bor and Orth, and was unhappy when Kylara would go to Meron. Of course that more bronzes would make her happier, and having Mnementh as her mate would boost her pride - and Kylara's as well - but it was Kylara in DQ that wanted more - Prideth was happy with things as they were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anareth View Post
And we KNOW the Queen Fight doesn't happen in this case, as F'lar would not have tolerated the thing with Meron for any length of time (assuming it started at all if Kylara's Senior of Benden.)
Maybe it even would, if F'lar never got over Lessa, and Kylara again gets jealous and wants to make him the jealous one.
__________________
"Manuscripts don't burn", Woland, ''The Master and Margarita''

From the Weyr and from the Bowl
Bronze and Brown and Blue and Green,
Rise the dragonmen of Pern,
Aloft, on wing, seen, then unseen.
Dragonman avoid excess
Greed will bring the Weyr distress;
To the ancient Laws adhere,
Prospers thus the Dragon-weyr.
Golden Talisath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 13 2010, 04:26 AM   #76
Dragongirl
.:. Baroness von Imp .:.
Weyrling
 
Dragongirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Gender: F
Fan of: I do not 'fan'. I obsess.
Now Reading: The Book of Lost Things - John Connelly.
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

You seem convinced that, despite evidence to the contrary when it comes to his personality, F'lar would be stupid enough to let his personal feelings get in the way (if he had any in the first place) of dealing with what would be a plainly obvious, even stupider thing on Kylara's part to get attention/jealousy/some sort of political high ground. By which I mean, sleeping with Meron.

I'm still not convinced he would, at all. Unless he somehow did a massive Heel Face Turn in personality. Because the only time I ever saw evidence of his jealous streak was when Lessa was flipping him off personally while giving Mnementh and Ramoth a warm reception. And even then, he wasn't stupid enough to let his emotions get him away from his ultimate goal - gaining control of, and protecting, Pern. Never once, throughout the books, has he let his emotions truly gain control over him in the political arena.

And at that point in time, this was Lessa who was trying to get under his skin and throw him off. Lessa, who we've seen is Queen of Manipulation. As opposed to Kylara, who, I'll say again, was 'subtle' enough to sleep with a Lord Holder known to be antagonistic to the Weyrs, and then turn up on his arm at a wedding. Colour me cynical, but when she did that, I didn't think 'oh, she's a real political threat. Real top-class sneaky'. I thought 'smooth, Kylara, real subtle'.

As for how he feels for Kylara personally...I'm even less convinced he'd fall for her ploys. Yes, he sleeps with her in Dragonflight. He sleeps with her because he's a bronze rider, and a man, and she's a hot piece of tail willing to get on her back for anything on a dragon that looks somewhat important while showing her a good time. But the only reason he makes a show of her attentions to him later is because it annoys Lessa. And by DQ, Kylara doesn't merit much more from him than a flat look and cold words.

So unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, just saying 'she'll make F'lar the jealous one' isn't going to cut it. Even if she somehow did turn him to jealousy, I don't see it doing much except for making his slap-down of her that much harder if she did sleep with Meron in that alternate world where she'd have become Benden's Senior Weyrwoman.
__________________
Paired with Calenlily. Woo, I has a stalker! *heart*

Those who seek to create war are mongrels and fools, but the blood they spill as a result is never meaningless. - Lucrezia Noin

When someone is grieving for what they've lost, you can't really say you know how they feel, or how they should handle things. Because even if you've lost too, everyone grieves differently. Anyone who says otherwise are presumptuous idiots.-Hayley (My friend can be an astonishing wealth of wisdom)
Dragongirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 13 2010, 11:13 AM   #77
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

I agree with Dragongirl. The big difference in a DF where Lessa doesn't survive and Kylara winds up Benden's senior under a F'lar who's saved Pern but lost the woman he'd come to love and admire is that F'lar ain't T'bor and Kylara is no longer unsupervised at the back end of nowhere. F'lar is NOT going to have whiney temper tantrums and worry more about whose bed Kylara is in (assuming she felt the need to wander, having landed the top male prize on Pern) than about whether she's totally screwing up the Weyr.

You also, Talisath, are ignoring that Kylara spending those DF/DQ intervening years at Benden is going to be under a totally different influence. Pridith is not going to be a contented second who wouldn't dare challenge Ramoth because Ramoth is gone. And Kylara, instead of being shoved off to the side, HAS what she wanted--the premiere position a woman could achieve on Pern. She would be Senior Weyrwoman, the highest rank possible (even if tradition would dictate the Fort Weyrwoman was preeminent) and queen of her kingdom. She would have F'lar for mating flights and for appearances' sake if nothing else, because so long as she's senior, she holds the cards in that respect and F'lar knows it. She doesn't run to Meron because she has no reason to--if she wants to mess with F'lar, there are any number of bronze riders at Benden who would want to win the Weyrleadership. Messing around with a Lord Holder isn't going to accomplish anything when she has the power already.

It's not so much about her wanting F'lar, though I can see why she'd prefer him over T'bor or any of the other bronze riders from DF. It's about her wanting to be the alpha bitch. With Lessa gone and no other adult Benden queens, she's got the job without competition.
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 13 2010, 12:14 PM   #78
Spaceman Spiff
Inactive
 
Spaceman Spiff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Gender: M
Fan of: PERN!!!
Now Reading: Lord of the Rings
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anareth View Post
Has someone ever written that fic? Where Lessa fails somehow and doesn't come back and F'lar and Kylara have to take over? Could be interesting.
Interesting concept - although it's a little screwed from the start, with Pern's time-travel mechanics. If Lessa failed, then the Weyrs would not have gone missing in the first place, and we're in a completely and utterly changed situation.

Unless you're talking about failing as in losing all the Weyrs in between? You cruel, sadistic person for even THINKING that I do like the idea of Lessa being lost between, and only some of the Oldtimers making it forward. Seems much more realistic.
Spaceman Spiff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 14 2010, 05:39 AM   #79
Golden Talisath
Dragonrider storyteller
Junior Weyrwoman
 
Golden Talisath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Serbia
Gender: F
Fan of: F'lar and Lessa, DF
Now Reading: My university books
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaceman Spiff View Post
I do like the idea of Lessa being lost between, and only some of the Oldtimers making it forward. Seems much more realistic.
It would be a very good idea.
And as for Anareth and Dragongirl - you're right, Kylara wouldn't need to look for attention messing with Meron or any other Lord Holder if she got Benden, F'lar and Mnementh.
The question is, would she be fully satisfied with this? Like you said, Fort Weyr would be the First Weyr, and Benden would probably be in trouble for allowing (although no one did) Lessa to go to the past. How would the Oldtimers look at this? Would they use the lack of power F'lar would have to behave the way they did later in DQ? Or would they help Benden against the Lord Holders and the Dragonriders who think F'lar isn't a good enough Weyrleader? And what part would Kylara play? I think she should be with F'lar, because he, Benden and Mnementh are what she wanted. The question is, would Kylara still be a greedy bitch, and want something more?
__________________
"Manuscripts don't burn", Woland, ''The Master and Margarita''

From the Weyr and from the Bowl
Bronze and Brown and Blue and Green,
Rise the dragonmen of Pern,
Aloft, on wing, seen, then unseen.
Dragonman avoid excess
Greed will bring the Weyr distress;
To the ancient Laws adhere,
Prospers thus the Dragon-weyr.
Golden Talisath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 15 2010, 12:01 PM   #80
Shalyn
Inactive
 
Shalyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Loo-a-vull / Luhvuhl / Loo-ih-ville / Loo-a-ville / Looeyville / Lewisville Oh, Heck. Kentuckiana.
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonflight
Default Re: F'lar loves Lessa?

The thing that y'all are forgetting, that Anne put into her world and what draws everyone, is that there is no bond greater than that of a dragon and his rider. You want to talk about lifebonding? There it is. Any possible affection felt between dragonriders pales in comparison.

In DF, when Lessa goes back, she and F'lar have the beginnings of a relationship. Granted, it was three yea...Turns in the making, and they most likely feel a healthy amount of affection for each other. But a Nora Roberts type of love? Danielle Steele? Catherine Coulter? That type of love is reserved for the dragons. Actually, the dragon bond is even stronger.

So - if Lessa doesn't come back? F'lar would get over it - the same way he would get over it if F'nor died. (Actually, if both Lessa and F'nor didn't come back in DF - who would F'lar grieve for more?)

I also believe that Kylara could be just as good of a Weyrwoman as Mardra was, before she plot-hole-ingly went six kinds of crazy. They both come from similar backgrounds - Lord Holders' daughters. Mardra came from an even more prestigious Hold than Kylara did, so for all we know, she was just as bad or even worse than Kylara before she Impressed Loranth. And she turned out just fine, until she was dragged forward in time and had to leave her family and friends - everyone non-Weyr that she cared about - behind. It's no wonder she had a psychotic breakdown.

Also - if Kylara were to become Weyrwoman - and there is no doubt that she would, considering that as far as we know there were no other fertile queens (and yes, there could have been a hatchling that we don't know about), Prideth would have risen and either Orth or Mnementh would have flown her. If Orth won, I'm willing to bet that T'bor would have consulted F'lar on everything. F'lar would have been wing- and Weyr-second. If F'lar won, that does not automatically make F'lar and Kylara Weyrmates. They are Weyrleaders, but it doesn't automatically make them the Weyr equivalent of married. Kylara would have been free to sleep with T'bor, R'gul, S'lel, N'ton...anyone who would have her. This would also have kept F'lar on his toes - with Lessa, he knew that she didn't want to sleep around. With Kylara? Actually, once Kylara finds out she can't manipulate F'lar like she can T'bor, it would be very easy to find the Weyr under new management! But also, as has been pointed out, she would have learned responsibility. She would have made mistakes, but would learn from them.

As for F'lar "sending for F'nor" back in time? Why? They were already scheduled to return at a certain point. What would sending for them accomplish? They are still coming back, whether they stayed downtime four Turns or six Turns. There was no reason whatsoever to even bring up "sending" for them...unless they had already come forward and were still living in the Southern Weyr until they were ready to fight.
Shalyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jaxom, F'lar, Lessa, Ramoth's Egg cbrtlsseca Dragonriders of Pern 32 May 31 2012 02:37 AM
Fanfic: Kath became a fan of DRAGONFLIGHT! Kath Exhibit Hall 41 Feb 20 2010 08:36 AM
Fanfic: The Skyboom (v2 - rewrite) D. M. Domini Exhibit Hall 13 Sep 19 2009 10:29 PM
How many years older is F'lar than Lessa? Juri Dragonriders of Pern 9 Dec 9 2005 09:56 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

ds and characters based on Anne McCaffrey’s fiction are copyright © Anne McCaffrey 1967-2008, all rights reserved, and used bA Meeting of Minds forum owned by Cheryl B. Miller.
All references to worly permission of the author.