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Old May 29 2009, 04:28 PM   #1
Larith
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Default Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

People say this book is inconsistent with Watch Whers but the thing is we were never told much of anything about them before hand, Dragonflight included. Maybe the Watch Wher's around holds at that time are as anti social as they are from being mistreated, the few times they are mentioned it sounds like they are usually starved. Maybe Lessa's Watch Wher acts the way it does because I was never bonded to anyone, by then it seems like all watch wher lore has been lost anyway so nobody would think to bond to them.

I think this book would have made a better ninth pass book with them rediscovering the usefulness of Watch Whers.

The one thing I did find unbelievable was Watch Wher's flying humans, I could swallow them flying on their own but a full grown human? I always assumed Watch Whers were slightly bigger then a large dog but I'd think they'd at least need to be horse sized to fly a human around. I may be wrong but then again I don't think their actual size was told within any of the books.

I'd also like to know how they set that all up with Wach Wher's being so useful for emergencies and such yet despite being so important that was all forgotten by the ninth pass.
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Old May 29 2009, 11:15 PM   #2
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

Well, dragon's Kin was written By Todd, and he has definitely changed the role of the watch wher in his stories, I did note in Dragonsblood that he started having them being chained up, but yes several cues in dragonflight made it seem the watch whers were more human sized than dragons. calling their daytime place a kennel, also Lessa resting the Ruathan watch wher's head in her lap. doubt that could be accomplished with an adult dragon of any kind.

Todd apparently decided to make them a lot more unsung heroes than just guarding of the hold/bloodline.
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Old May 30 2009, 09:28 AM   #3
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

Well a lot of "main" characters in the 9th pass did complain about things being lost and forgotten. A lot of things were once written done then got lost in translation, due to age of materials, tunnel snakes etc and what was once written history became oral history so mistakes were made more easily. At least that's how I see it
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Old May 30 2009, 12:46 PM   #4
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

The naming convention I suppose could be explained by the general distaste and lack of bonding with the watch whers.

Night air, however, has such a tiny temperature and humidity difference that it would not enable a creature as non-aerodynamic and wing-stunted as a wher to fly. I believe they are said to be the size of small ponies. If they are powered by telekinesis, like the dragons, it shouldn't matter how 'thin' or 'thick' the air is.

What I want to know is how Pern survived without whers 'flying' fall, since its pretty obvious that fact is forgotten by the 9th Pass Pern.

Ugh, I prefer thinking Todd's books don't exist!
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Old May 30 2009, 02:28 PM   #5
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

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The naming convention I suppose could be explained by the general distaste and lack of bonding with the watch whers.

Night air, however, has such a tiny temperature and humidity difference that it would not enable a creature as non-aerodynamic and wing-stunted as a wher to fly. I believe they are said to be the size of small ponies. If they are powered by telekinesis, like the dragons, it shouldn't matter how 'thin' or 'thick' the air is.

What I want to know is how Pern survived without whers 'flying' fall, since its pretty obvious that fact is forgotten by the 9th Pass Pern.

Ugh, I prefer thinking Todd's books don't exist!
I'm actually enjoying Todd's books quite a bit, he just needs to get more in canon with his mothers books
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Old May 30 2009, 02:47 PM   #6
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

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The naming convention I suppose could be explained by the general distaste and lack of bonding with the watch whers.

Night air, however, has such a tiny temperature and humidity difference that it would not enable a creature as non-aerodynamic and wing-stunted as a wher to fly. I believe they are said to be the size of small ponies. If they are powered by telekinesis, like the dragons, it shouldn't matter how 'thin' or 'thick' the air is.

What I want to know is how Pern survived without whers 'flying' fall, since its pretty obvious that fact is forgotten by the 9th Pass Pern.

Ugh, I prefer thinking Todd's books don't exist!
I am in complete accord with you on this, DragonDance. If I pretend Todd's books are an alternate reality of Pern, I can almost stomach them. Almost. I have not liked any of the recent books as a whole, though small sections within them I felt had promise.

I'm really hating the character Kindan. I feel like they are trying to make him some kind of super character that worms his way into all these important scenarios. Anne did very well using Robinton in a similar way, but Kindan annoys the crapola out of me.

As for the watch whers, I appreciate that Todd is trying to build them up as a much neglected aspect of life on Pern. However, I think he has tried to do too much with them; what he has written has been largely contradictory to the few references given within Anne's canon books even taking in to consideration that this 'lore' was possibly lost like so much other knowledge by the time of the 9th Pass. It just doesn't make any sense.
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Old Jun 1 2009, 10:04 PM   #7
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

I'm guessing that the flying/Threadfighting abilities of whers were forgotten during the 400 turns of the first Long Interval, when they were never seen to fight Thread. And maybe ordinary watch-whers didn't fight Thread anyway, so ordinary holder-folk would be less aware of this role.

BTW how come Sean, in DragonsDawn, asked Joel Lilienkamp for flying suits made of wher-hide? They only had cowhide and sheepskin in those days. Even later on, I wouldn't think they'd have a lot of actual wher-hide, unless the beasties went feral in large numbers and multiplied in the wild.

Christine.
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Old Jun 1 2009, 10:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

Actually, I always had the impression that wher-hide referred to the hide of wherries. Not sure why I thought that, because I'm surprised that their hide would be useful.
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Old Jun 2 2009, 01:30 AM   #9
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

In DD and CoP, they where not called watch whers, but they were used in mining, and DE/RSR! The "handlers" still said that they could still tell about problems human eyes could not see.

About flying/fighting Threads, I don't have any ideas on that!
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Old Jun 2 2009, 01:40 AM   #10
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

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Originally Posted by Eriflor View Post
I'm guessing that the flying/Threadfighting abilities of whers were forgotten during the 400 turns of the first Long Interval, when they were never seen to fight Thread. And maybe ordinary watch-whers didn't fight Thread anyway, so ordinary holder-folk would be less aware of this role.
In Moreta, there are hints too. For the watch wher at the Harper/Healer MasterCraftHall, was used as an example
Quote:
BTW how come Sean, in DragonsDawn, asked Joel Lilienkamp for flying suits made of wher-hide? They only had cowhide and sheepskin in those days. Even later on, I wouldn't think they'd have a lot of actual wher-hide, unless the beasties went feral in large numbers and multiplied in the wild.

Christine.
Also they hunted/trapping them in both DD and CoP too.
Someone found a way to do it, and they didn't waste anything that was useful.
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Old Jun 2 2009, 01:50 AM   #11
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

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I'm really hating the character Kindan. I feel like they are trying to make him some kind of super character that worms his way into all these important scenarios. Anne did very well using Robinton in a similar way, but Kindan annoys the crapola out of me.
I resemble that comment

I'm about 400 pages into Dragonheart, so I will have once again finished every pern novel. I think that the Todd books are okay, readable. He's gotten much better at making you care about his characters over the course of his writing, which is good, but I do feel like he's twisting too much into the same time period and scenarios connecting things that are a little too coincidental.

I do feel each book is better than the last, so far. Except the overall plot of Dragon Harper was a little much since we've already done curing a plague soooo many times now. At least Dragonheart's plague part wasn't the whole book and was just from the perspective of someone living through it rather than trying to fix it.

I am intersted to see how he develops the books into the pass. Watch-whers are a cool concept the way he's developed them, but I do agree that having them have to fly thread at night is really going to take some sort of miracle to be able to relate it to the 9th pass books and still make sense. Since...that clearly stopped happening and pern still existed.

Characterization: A
Concepts: B
Consistency and Continuity: B-
Overall Plot Themes: C

I think that is how I'd grade it
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Old Jun 2 2009, 12:14 PM   #12
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

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I resemble that comment

I'm about 400 pages into Dragonheart, so I will have once again finished every pern novel. I think that the Todd books are okay, readable. He's gotten much better at making you care about his characters over the course of his writing, which is good, but I do feel like he's twisting too much into the same time period and scenarios connecting things that are a little too coincidental.

I do feel each book is better than the last, so far. Except the overall plot of Dragon Harper was a little much since we've already done curing a plague soooo many times now. At least Dragonheart's plague part wasn't the whole book and was just from the perspective of someone living through it rather than trying to fix it.

I am intersted to see how he develops the books into the pass. Watch-whers are a cool concept the way he's developed them, but I do agree that having them have to fly thread at night is really going to take some sort of miracle to be able to relate it to the 9th pass books and still make sense. Since...that clearly stopped happening and pern still existed.

Characterization: A
Concepts: B
Consistency and Continuity: B-
Overall Plot Themes: C

I think that is how I'd grade it
Well, if you break is down that way, I'd grade it similarly:

Characterization: C
Concepts: B
Consistency and Continuity: C-
Overall Plot Themes: C

I've read worse, but these books by Todd still bother me.
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Old Jun 3 2009, 01:21 PM   #13
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

I can buy handlers saying that they can sense things humans can't without whers having heat-vision. Canaries can detect gas changes (by dying, but they can't really communicate "I can't frikkin' breathe!" to us and whers can.) It was just such an unneeded change.

Feral whers? I can't imagine there'd be so many feral whers to mount night Threadfall defense flights. (Don't they have small, infrequent cluthes with a high mortality rate? I swear both Anne and Todd said this.) I always assumed wher-hide was from wherries, too. They seemed like a cross between ostrich and cow to me....why wouldn't they make beautiful leather? Too many people wear wherhide for me to believe its from variations of whers.

On Kindan: He annoys me because he is an attempt to make a new, 3rd(?) pass Robinton. Not only is the idea of a savant harper traversing Pern fixing sociopolitical problems and whatnot not original the second time around, but Kindan turns out to the 4 times the Gary Stu that Robinton was.
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Old Jun 3 2009, 06:55 PM   #14
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

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I can buy handlers saying that they can sense things humans can't without whers having heat-vision. Canaries can detect gas changes (by dying, but they can't really communicate "I can't frikkin' breathe!" to us and whers can.) It was just such an unneeded change.

Feral whers? I can't imagine there'd be so many feral whers to mount night Threadfall defense flights. (Don't they have small, infrequent cluthes with a high mortality rate? I swear both Anne and Todd said this.) I always assumed wher-hide was from wherries, too. They seemed like a cross between ostrich and cow to me....why wouldn't they make beautiful leather? Too many people wear wherhide for me to believe its from variations of whers.

On Kindan: He annoys me because he is an attempt to make a new, 3rd(?) pass Robinton. Not only is the idea of a savant harper traversing Pern fixing sociopolitical problems and whatnot not original the second time around, but Kindan turns out to the 4 times the Gary Stu that Robinton was.

*hugs DragonDance*

You get me! You so get it!!! Woot!
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Old Feb 24 2010, 04:14 PM   #15
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

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Actually, I always had the impression that wher-hide referred to the hide of wherries. Not sure why I thought that, because I'm surprised that their hide would be-useful.
Because Lessa's watch wher had clipped wings - and you don't have to clip the wings of something that canot fly - while Wild whers were never described as flying in the books. I assumed that the two were different creatures when I first read the books in the late 70's & early 80's. I always pictured wild whers as big, wingless, six legged lizards that were farmed for their leather like alligators were on Earth. Watch Whers on the other hand I thought of as ugly short legged dragons.

I was right on the latter but apparently not on the former .
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Old Feb 24 2010, 09:55 PM   #16
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

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In Moreta, there are hints too. For the watch wher at the Harper/Healer MasterCraftHall, was used as an example
Also they hunted/trapping them in both DD and CoP too.
Someone found a way to do it, and they didn't waste anything that was useful.
By 'them', do you mean wherries? They didn't have any wild whers in DD and CoP, just half-a-dozen tame ones.

I think of wherries as being about turkey-sized, but the ones Ruth was hunting in TWD sound a lot bigger, and would have correspondingly thicker hide.

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Old Feb 24 2010, 09:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

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Feral whers? I can't imagine there'd be so many feral whers to mount night Threadfall defense flights. (Don't they have small, infrequent cluthes with a high mortality rate? I swear both Anne and Todd said this.) I always assumed wher-hide was from wherries, too. They seemed like a cross between ostrich and cow to me....why wouldn't they make beautiful leather? Too many people wear wherhide for me to believe its from variations of whers.
I was thinking of feral whers as a source of leather, not Thread-fighters. They'd have to use the tame ones (watch-whers or mining whers) for that.

Eriflor.
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Old Jul 30 2015, 06:35 PM   #18
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Default Re: Dragon's Kin Watch Wher Inconsistency

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I can buy handlers saying that they can sense things humans can't without whers having heat-vision. Canaries can detect gas changes (by dying, but they can't really communicate "I can't frikkin' breathe!" to us and whers can.) It was just such an unneeded change.
The heat vision is supposed to help them see the difference between warm live Thread and frozen dead Thread when fighting it at night, according to Wind Blossom in Dragonsblood.

Quote:
Feral whers? I can't imagine there'd be so many feral whers to mount night Threadfall defense flights. (Don't they have small, infrequent cluthes with a high mortality rate? I swear both Anne and Todd said this.) I always assumed wher-hide was from wherries, too. They seemed like a cross between ostrich and cow to me....why wouldn't they make beautiful leather? Too many people wear wherhide for me to believe its from variations of whers.
They do have a high mortality rate when it comes to eggs hatching, but considering how often green dragons rise to mate, is it really that much of a stretch to have many green and blue feral whers? Throw in some feral browns and bronzes and it might work out. Seems to me the problem would be having enough golds, since they organize the night Threadfall flights.

Wherhide is from wherries... Though it is interesting that you compare them to a cow. I think they're suppose to look more like ostrich-sized turkeys. Lol now I'm picturing an ostrich-size turkey with cow spots.

Quote:
On Kindan: He annoys me because he is an attempt to make a new, 3rd(?) pass Robinton. Not only is the idea of a savant harper traversing Pern fixing sociopolitical problems and whatnot not original the second time around, but Kindan turns out to the 4 times the Gary Stu that Robinton was.
Didn't he burn down the Fort Hold records room? That's got to count for something against his gary stu-ness, right?
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