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Old Dec 8 2015, 12:32 PM   #81
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Ok, so using the measurements from how big dragon hatchlings could be while still fitting into 3-4 foot eggs (thanks Semantre!), and my own equation for figuring out the size of wher and firelizard hatchlings, if I'm doing the math right, than the 8.25 foot hatchling they said could fit into a queen egg is how big Ramoth was as a baby.

And if the "half as tall as they are long" proportions hold true for the babies as they do for the adults... That would make Ramoth 4.125 feet tall at her withers when she was newly hatched. A normal queen hatchling would only be as big as 7.7 feet long and 3.85 feet tall.

And if I got Ruth's hatchling size right (2.8 feet long and 1.4 feet tall), he really wouldn't have been much bigger than a firelizard at birth! Only a little bit larger than a big fully grown queen firelizard (2.5 feet long and 1.25 feet tall)!
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Old Dec 9 2015, 11:39 PM   #82
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

I'm listening to Dragonseye/Red Star Rising, once more. Something being several hands larger then once from the First Pass, and good size to the bronze at Telgar Weyr Hatching.
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Old Jan 3 2016, 08:10 PM   #83
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

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Originally Posted by CuriousFlit View Post
Would it be alright if I used these calculations for my Minecraft project? I only just found this thread and a lot of what you guys are saying makes sense. That's pretty cool how you all figured it out.
Belatedly, but by all means, have at! I was just noodling it out, I have no claims on the numbers.
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Old Jan 12 2016, 07:09 PM   #84
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Thanks!
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Old Jan 28 2016, 12:56 PM   #85
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Hey, Semantre, I have another question for you. Those hatchling calculations in feet you did, well, what if that number was the length of the hatchling from nose to tail base, with an extra half-length of tail? Could they still fit inside those eggs?

EDIT: Wait- nevermind, you already said those lengths included the tail. Besides, baby dragons don't have the same body proportions as adults. So my new idea might still work...

What got me thinking was that Carenath is said to be smaller than Ruth, but that his body is longer than a horse's. If Ruth is 20 feet long from nose to tail-fork, and Carenath is 10 feet long from nose to tail-fork, and Cricket the horse is 8 feet from nose to butt with a 5 foot long body with both he and Carenath being the same height at the shoulders (5 feet), and half of Carenath's total length is his tail, that would make his body only about 2 1/2 feet long if his proportions of head, neck, and body where scaled up from those of a horse.

That doesn't add up since in the book his body is longer than Cricket's. So I looked up how horses are measured since Ann had horses and based her dragons at least partly on them. Horses are measured in total length from nose to butt. So I was thinking what if Carenath's 10 feet were from nose to tail base, with an extra 5 feet of tail (the "tail is half total length" measurement). That way he'd still be 10 feet long and half that height at the withers, but have a longer body than a horse's. When I measured him that way, keeping the horse-like proportions, Carenath's body length was 6 of the 10 feet.

If I'm doing the math right, that means for an adult dragon, 40% of the length from nose to tail-fork is neck and tail, with another 40% being the torso, and 20% being the head.

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Old Jan 29 2016, 12:02 AM   #86
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

A horse is measured from nose to butt because the tail hangs downward at that point. Tail-length means nothing for a horse, but is truly part of the length of a dragon and probably contributes to its manoeuverability.
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Old Jan 29 2016, 12:33 AM   #87
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A horse is measured from nose to butt because the tail hangs downward at that point. Tail-length means nothing for a horse, but is truly part of the length of a dragon and probably contributes to its manoeuverability.
So, Carenath being longer in body than Cricket would be because of his tail?
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Old Jan 30 2016, 02:38 PM   #88
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Hi CuriousFlit.
I was thinking about your last post, and glanced back to where you said Ruth was 20 feet long and Carenath only 10 feet long. That's quite a difference from Carenath being "smaller than Ruth". Or was it "not as big as Ruth"?

I'd like to check my books for the dragon/horse comparison, but my cat is napping next to the bookshelf and I don't want to wake him up. Anyway, I'd say Sean was comparing shoulders-to-butt on both animals.
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Old Jan 30 2016, 04:58 PM   #89
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

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Hi CuriousFlit.
I was thinking about your last post, and glanced back to where you said Ruth was 20 feet long and Carenath only 10 feet long. That's quite a difference from Carenath being "smaller than Ruth". Or was it "not as big as Ruth"?

I'd like to check my books for the dragon/horse comparison, but my cat is napping next to the bookshelf and I don't want to wake him up. Anyway, I'd say Sean was comparing shoulders-to-butt on both animals.
Sorry, it's "Why, that bronze isn't as big as Ruth". I checked using google books, my own copy is lost in the house somewhere.

https://books.google.com/books?id=EH...renath&f=false

Here's the quote comparing Carenath to Cricket:

"The bronze was nearly the same height in the shoulder as Cricket, though the conformation was entirely different, Carenath being much longer in the body, deeper in the barrel, and stronger in the hindquarters."

https://books.google.com/books?id=9l...renath&f=false
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Old Feb 1 2016, 06:17 PM   #90
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

The length difference for Carenath from the horse is going to be based on the measurements from the withers back. Dragons are always described as being rather 'downhill'--they have huge hindquarters for those leaping takeoffs, their walk is described as a crouch-hop--their front legs are shorter and thinner and the joints aren't in the same places as a horse's (who basically has one relatively-equal limb to a corner and being 'downhill' is a conformation fault if they don't grow out of it. Being "long-backed" is a major fault as the horse's back is relatively weak and a long one is not going to bear weight well.) They also have an extra set of limbs growing out of their shoulders that their back length has to account for. So just withers to dock on a dragon is going to make the back longer than a horse before the tail even becomes involved. Dragon necks also have to be proportionally longer to their body than a horse's because of all the times they're described as reaching, craning, stretching--horses CAN reach back, but it's a big stretch and they have limited upward flexibility--they can lift their head so their neck is more or less straight up, but that's about as high as it goes. You also wouldn't want to put any weight forward of the withers, while the bigger dragons have riders sitting on the neck.
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Old Feb 5 2016, 03:41 PM   #91
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Huh... So I've been looking at this all the wrong way?
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Old Feb 6 2016, 02:04 PM   #92
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Sorry, it's "Why, that bronze isn't as big as Ruth". I checked using google books, my own copy is lost in the house somewhere.

Here's the quote comparing Carenath to Cricket:

"The bronze was nearly the same height in the shoulder as Cricket, though the conformation was entirely different, Carenath being much longer in the body, deeper in the barrel, and stronger in the hindquarters."
The same quotation indicates that Ramoth and Mnementh were "3 times the size" of Carenath and Faranth. Assuming Carenath is 5 feet high at the withers as you suggest, the modern dragons would be 15 feet high, or 30 feet long.

The section in DLGP that discusses the size of dragons (page 33 in the second edition) gives 10 to 12 feet long for the original dragons, then switches to meters for the rest of the section (with Ramoth at 45 meters). I think somebody didn't know their metric conversion rates. A few pages later Ruth is described as "a throwback to the original dragons in size and proportion" --- but also as 20 feet long, which doesn't agree with what it says about Carenath in ATWOP (published 6 years before DLGP 2nd edition). I've always thought the metric dragon-sizes were wrong.
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Old Feb 6 2016, 02:41 PM   #93
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

From what I hear, the first edition of DLGP was never corrected for the second edition, only added to. I only have the first edition, with the second one coming in the mail. I'll compare them and find out.

If Faranth was 12 feet long, and Carenath was 10 feet long, that would about add up to Ramoth and Mnementh being "3 times" as big if they were measured in feet. I'm not sure how it would work out in meters. 45/12 and 38/10 (if we go by the biggest bronze size from DLGP) both equal about 3. 3.75 and 3.8 respectively, but still 3. And it said in DLGP that the 12 foot long dragons were 18 hands high, and the 10 footers were 16 hands high. That's about 6 feet and 5 feet at the withers respectively, if I'm doing the math right. So about half as tall at the withers as it is long. Cricket at birth was estimated to grow to 16 hands tall, and since they never give his hieght at full growth, I went with that.
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Old Feb 6 2016, 04:49 PM   #94
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

How big did the dragons really need to be?
18 turns after the first Hatching, Alaranth was only a hand taller at the shoulder than Faranth, and Torene was embarassed about that, so presumably Alaranth was now the biggest queen. Yet the Weyrs were doing a pretty good job of protecting the farmed area around Fort and maybe a few more places they wanted to have ready for farming. (I assume that with all the extra clutches, they were able to send wings out to keep more areas clear than just enough to feed the population and supply other needs.)

The oldtimers commented (adversely) on how big the modern dragons were, after 400 turns of inbreeding within a single weyr. I wonder how big the Eighth Pass dragons were? Maybe they'd already reached their intended size --- although in the event, the bigger dragons were useful for moving the Red Star.
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Old Feb 6 2016, 05:46 PM   #95
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

In the Pern Wiki, it says that the dragons had reached their programmed size by the Sixth Pass, and stayed that way until Benden Weyr had the inbreeding, but it doesn't say what that size was. Then again, I'm spotting a few contradictions on that page, so who really knows? http://pern.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon
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Old Feb 7 2016, 06:17 AM   #96
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

If you watch the video of Anne that Hans has just posted, you'll notice that Anne refers to dragons repeatedly as "40 foot." I suspect the figure never was exact
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Old Feb 13 2016, 12:43 AM   #97
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

https://www.facebook.com/12357643449...032920/?type=3 For some reason I'm thinking of Anne McCaffrey, Pern, and the Ford of Red Hanrahan, and Jan Regan and the size of dragons early years
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Old Feb 13 2016, 04:34 AM   #98
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Either a very small lady or a photoshop. Clydesdales are big - but not that big!
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Old Feb 15 2016, 12:29 AM   #99
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Either she's quite short, it's photoshopped, or they're Shires (but I think it's mostly a small lady and the angle of the photo. I've seen a few pictures where horses look MUCH bigger than they really are because of the person next to them being non-typical. It can work the other way, too, especially with fine-built horses. Lucky, my horse, is not nearly as short as his sale photo suggested because of the height and bulk of the person holding him. His "cousin" American Pharoah tends to look deceptively small, too when he's in fact one of the BIGGER Triple Crown winners.)

And the horse-dragon analogy can only go so far, is what I'm saying. Horse are running herbivores who spend most of their day (in nature) with their head down.) Dragons are predators described as being built to launch UPWARDS and have very flexible necks and tails who spend most of their movement time airborne, and would have to have a very different configuration of bone and muscle at the shoulder than a horse. The flexibility and the extra muscle in the back would mean their back (the only part really comparable to a horse, ie from the withers to the tail dock) would start out needing to be proportionally longer. And while Anne never really clarifies, most artwork shows dragons resting on their "elbows" with their forearms and front feet configured rather like a human elbow, forearm, and wrist. That means their front-leg shoulders (as opposed to wingshoulders) and foreleg construction can't be anything at all like a horse, so comparing heights using ground to withers would be dubious.
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