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Old Dec 13 2005, 08:04 PM   #41
Myt
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Hi there. That is interesting. Where did you get it from?
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Old Dec 15 2005, 10:15 PM   #42
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i think i might be wrong about the lungs bit, but it really wouldn't give them that much more room

i've heard a theory that earth used to have a higher O2 concentration which is why big animals like dinosaurs and such could exist. actually, now that i think about it i don't know what that has to do with egg sizes. (it was late when i posted)

as for the 2-3ft eggs, well as far as i know that's the size of the largest dinosaur eggs ever found (granted they look more like fat sausages than eggs) i think they were supposed to be from a species of tyrannosaur. this is, as i recall, already far larger than was once believed possible.

and the yolk bit was just what i remember from science classes.
wish i could site actual sources for you.
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Old Dec 15 2005, 11:05 PM   #43
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1. the lungs are working while in the egg, so they would be inflated.

2. the size of the hatchlings always bothered me. because like someone else mentioned, i always compared them to dinosaurs.

on earth at least (Pern has to have a richer o2 content to support large animals like dragons), that would limit the size of the eggs to 2-3foot maximum, the hatchling even less because of the yolk sac that feeds it (which no one mentioned). granted by hatching time the chick/dragonet would have absorbed most of that.

i can stretch my imagination for the story, but any larger than 3-4ft in length would be a bit much.

3. i envisioned the eggs as similar to reptile eggs (soft/leathery) that harden towards hatching. i can't check right now, but i think they're described that way too.

oh, hello by the way
But remember, a hatchling isn't stretched out from nose to tail inside the egg, they are curled up. So while an egg is 2-3 feet long, the inside occupant at the time of hatching could very well be 5-8 feet long at full length.
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Old Dec 20 2005, 05:01 AM   #44
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Gold Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Makes sense. In one of the books (can't remember which) it says that dragonets are incredibly flexible.
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Old May 28 2010, 03:59 PM   #45
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

It has always struck me as funny that fiction books ALWAYS make the eggs of dragons and dinosaurs absolutely huge.

On earth an animal's egg cannot exceed a certain size or the shell becomes so thick that the hatchling cannot get oxygen, and thus is stillborn. the largest known eggs are those of the recently extinct Elephant bird of Madagascar (Aepyornis maximus)whose eggs had a circumference of 3 ft (91 cm), were 13 inches (33 cm) long and a capacity of 2 gallons (9 litres). Interestingly the largest known dinosaur, Argentinosaurus had an egg no larger than that of a modern ostrich.

As a result dragon eggs must be made out of sterner stuff than calcium. I assume that the shells must be boron based like the dragon's skeleton otherwise they could not possibly be so large. Would a boron based shell allow for a larger egg or is the giant dragon egg just an "Annieism"?
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Old May 28 2010, 04:53 PM   #46
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

On egg shell structure, DF, page 185 in the Google Books online preview:

Quote:
Lessa came to a sudden stop before the eggs. They seemed to be pulsing. The shells looked flaccid. She could have sworn they were hard the day she Impressed Ramoth. She wanted to touch one, just to make sure, but dared not.
You may, Ramoth assured her condescendingly. She touched lessa's shoulder gently with her tounge.
The egg was soft to the touch and Lessa drew her hand back quickly, afraid of doing injury.
The heat will harden it, Ramoth said.
On hatchling size, DF, page 81 in the Google Books online preview:

Quote:
The crack widened and the wedge-head broke through, followed quickly by the neck, gleaming gold. Lessa wondered with unexpected detachment how long it would take the beast to mature, considering its by no means small size at birth. For the head was larger than that of the male dragons, and they had been large enough to overhelm sturdy boys of ten full Turns.

....

As the golden beast, crying piteously, lurched down from the raised arena toward the scattered women, Lessa moved. Why hadn't that silly clunk-headed girl stepped aside, Lessa thought, grabbing for the wedge-head, at birth not much larger than her own torso. The dragon was so clumsy and weak she was her own worst enemy.
Those are the references that I can recall to both hatchling size and egg nature.
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Old May 29 2010, 01:19 PM   #47
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What do you think the average length of a womens torso, maybe 2-1/2 - 3 ft? Is the egg shape ever mentioned, ovoid or round? Maybe I should try to model an egg and a hatchiling to see what it might look like.
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Old May 29 2010, 05:53 PM   #48
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

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What do you think the average length of a womens torso, maybe 2-1/2 - 3 ft?
About 1 1/2 or a little less from shoulder to hip bone... and I'm 5'5". Legs are longer than bodies, usually, and there's that pesky head and neck stuck on top taking up more height... 3ft torso would be well over 7ft tall...
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Old Jun 1 2010, 01:26 AM   #49
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Yes in Moreta for she could feel the bump of her queen's Orlith hide, as she did her pre-fight check, before the last fall before her clutching.

Also after her belly hide had return to normal after her laying of her clutch, with the gold egg near her, so she could worry about the High Reches's Sr. Queen who need her aid.
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Old Jun 3 2010, 08:33 PM   #50
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

I've gotten the idea that, laying-wise, they probably don't lay ALL the eggs at once. Lay a few, body forms more, lay a few more, etc. until done, over a period of days. Perhaps there's some sort of chemical signal that allows the ones laid later to hatch at the same time as the rest...or a chemical signal suppressing hatching in the older ones until others are ready to hatch. (After all, if everyone's hatching, there are more firelizards for predators to prey on, but if there's just one or two they're more easily picked off. Makes better sense to all hatch at once.) I would think that dragon eggs would probably be laid the same way, if for defunct reasons as dragons have no natural predators.

I always imagined firelizard eggs to be a bit bigger than chicken eggs. I can hold 3 chicken eggs in a hand--not well, as I have small hands, but I can--so I was thinking firelizard eggs would be somewhat smaller than baseballs, and differently shaped (more oval and leathery). But not as small as chicken eggs or golf/ping-pong balls. Menolly was a large woman so she'd be able to handle multiple eggs in one hand better than I.

Dragons I was thinking would probably be the size of various medium to large dogs. To put it this way...I'm about 115lbs myself, and I'm a small woman at 4'11". But a 115 pound dog is pretty big, and if it had the desire and means to savage you, it could, easily, no problem. Thus, dragons of similar size or weight could claw boys and girls and give them trouble to carry and hold, even when hatched, but still *are* small enough in most cases to lug around, if with effort. (And who's to say baby dragons don't "help" with the weight unconsciously?)
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Old Jun 3 2010, 09:05 PM   #51
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

An eighty-pound dog could kill a human adult. It's less about weight than build. Chimps are smaller than humans but the way they're built makes them stronger. A dragonet wouldn't have to weigh more than a candidate to hurt them, especially with those claws and teeth!
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Old Jun 4 2010, 02:16 PM   #52
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Re DM and egg formation, as I understood it in both Moreta and DF, while laying can take a couple of days the eggs are all formed at the same time, and it takes weeks for them to form. Otherwise, there would be no reason for the several weeks between the flight and the clutching in the first place. It is clearly stated that Orlith's body is swollen with her eggs, and they are heavy enough to make it difficult for her to fly.
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Old Jun 10 2010, 11:59 PM   #53
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

There was a study of bird body size (mass) vs egg size (mass) across hundreds of species that seemed to show a definite trend. This link only covers pages 750-765 of JSTOR. This study also counted for those species that have clutches of more than 1 egg, and how each egg's mass in clutches reduced in relation to the numbers in the clutch (starting on pg 760) & even some trends of incubation times to body size (starting on pg 762).

Of course dragons are not birds, but the study might provide us some ideas on estimating egg masses (the desired unknown) when factoring in clutch size & incubation time (both known variables) and dragon body size (estimated variable).

Constants in the formulas are also factors that would have to be estimated, but it might be possible to figure them out since they would only be important when comparing flits, watchwhers, and dragons.
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Old Jun 11 2010, 04:12 AM   #54
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There was a study of bird body size (mass) vs egg size (mass) across hundreds of species that seemed to show a definite trend. This link only covers pages 750-765 of JSTOR. This study also counted for those species that have clutches of more than 1 egg, and how each egg's mass in clutches reduced in relation to the numbers in the clutch (starting on pg 760) & even some trends of incubation times to body size (starting on pg 762).

Of course dragons are not birds, but the study might provide us some ideas on estimating egg masses (the desired unknown) when factoring in clutch size & incubation time (both known variables) and dragon body size (estimated variable).

Constants in the formulas are also factors that would have to be estimated, but it might be possible to figure them out since they would only be important when comparing flits, watchwhers, and dragons.
Okay... there's a lot of scatter (a factor of nearly 5) between different types of bird, but within a single family the correlation holds pretty well, with mass^0.6-0.7... however, the whole range of data only spans 1.5 dex, so scaling up from a goose-sized flit to a runt like Ruth (or, okay, Carenath) is already beyond the limits of the data probed. It's likely that a scaling relation like that would hold, based as it is on metabolism and body volume, but it could easily skew at the larger end.

I find the comments on clutch sizes particularly interesting. The volume/capacity of the bird's egg production system seems to be more uniform within a species, while increased body mass leads to bigger eggs... and the incubation load on the bird's metabolism also seems related to mass, leading to reduced egg numbers in larger birds.

There's no reason similar trends wouldn't occur in flits/dragons, which kind of means that Ramoth... well, Anne got it wrong!

But, it would be a nice way of getting around Faranth's super-clutches in the first Pass...
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Old Jun 11 2010, 10:42 AM   #55
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
I've gotten the idea that, laying-wise, they probably don't lay ALL the eggs at once. Lay a few, body forms more, lay a few more, etc. until done, over a period of days. Perhaps there's some sort of chemical signal that allows the ones laid later to hatch at the same time as the rest...or a chemical signal suppressing hatching in the older ones until others are ready to hatch. (After all, if everyone's hatching, there are more firelizards for predators to prey on, but if there's just one or two they're more easily picked off. Makes better sense to all hatch at once.) I would think that dragon eggs would probably be laid the same way, if for defunct reasons as dragons have no natural predators.

*snip*

It does take a few days.

DF on.:

[QUOTE]A queen took several days to complete her clutch so there was no point to waiting. Seven eggs already lay beside the important golden one, and if there were seven already, this augured well for the eventual total. Wagers were being made and taken even as Ramoth produced her ninth mottled egg.[/QUOTE
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Old Jun 11 2010, 10:42 AM   #56
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

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Originally Posted by D. M. Domini View Post
I've gotten the idea that, laying-wise, they probably don't lay ALL the eggs at once. Lay a few, body forms more, lay a few more, etc. until done, over a period of days. Perhaps there's some sort of chemical signal that allows the ones laid later to hatch at the same time as the rest...or a chemical signal suppressing hatching in the older ones until others are ready to hatch. (After all, if everyone's hatching, there are more firelizards for predators to prey on, but if there's just one or two they're more easily picked off. Makes better sense to all hatch at once.) I would think that dragon eggs would probably be laid the same way, if for defunct reasons as dragons have no natural predators.

*snip*

It does take a few days.

DF on.:

Quote:
A queen took several days to complete her clutch so there was no point to waiting. Seven eggs already lay beside the important golden one, and if there were seven already, this augured well for the eventual total. Wagers were being made and taken even as Ramoth produced her ninth mottled egg.
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Old Jun 11 2010, 04:35 PM   #57
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It does take a few days.

DF on.:
Yeah, but those few days are pretty tiny in the grand scheme of things. Of course it's going to take time to squeeze individual eggs down her oviduct, one at a time... but it doesn't mean there's anything going on other than incubation of the ones still inside her, and the heat of the hatching grounds is designed to replicate similar conditions anyway.

You get several months of gestation, until they're big enough/ready to be clutched. A couple of days of popping them out, then a handful of weeks for further maturity and hardening off of the shells, all of which you don't want happening before the Queen has clutched them.

There's really no reason at all that ovulation of multiple eggs, fertilisation, formation of embryos and all the rest won't happen pretty much concurrently for the full clutch-to-be, and every reason to suspect that the formation was well underway well before clutching comes round. Unfertilised sperm and eggs aren't the most robust of cells...
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Old Jun 11 2010, 11:40 PM   #58
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

I agree that the eggs would all be at the same stage of growth - the "several days" is jut the process of getting them *out*, not growing new ones all of a sudden.

Quote:
But, it would be a nice way of getting around Faranth's super-clutches in the first Pass...
I personally like the explanation that several queens had clutches on the sands at one time, and it got muddled because they assumed there could be Only One Queen. Plus they only knew one name.
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Old Jun 12 2010, 04:07 AM   #59
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I agree that the eggs would all be at the same stage of growth - the "several days" is jut the process of getting them *out*, not growing new ones all of a sudden.

I personally like the explanation that several queens had clutches on the sands at one time, and it got muddled because they assumed there could be Only One Queen. Plus they only knew one name.
Well, that's my theory too. But it's always nice to have alternatives, and I'm never 100% attached to any given interpretation... It doesn't make sense for Faranth to have had multi-queen, >50 clutches, and I think the idea came about via two and a half millenia of Pernese confusion... but there's also a chance that Anne didn't think things through (for the umpteenth time) and DID mean for her clutches to have been that large (and clearly the other breeding queens just didn't rise or something ), and in that case, this is the best way of accounting for it.
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Old Apr 7 2011, 12:58 PM   #60
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

So, I got to thinking about the mentions of egg size and size of the hatchling, and realized that while it might be difficult to pinpoint because of the anatomy, we could make some logical projections from egg size about the size of the egg's contents based on some real world eggs from creatures that have a clutching behavior similar to dragons - alligators.

According to The Chinese Alligator: Ecology, Behavior, Conservation, and Culture and this study, Chinese alligator eggs have an average size of 57mm length and 35mm width and average clutch size of 20-30 eggs. The hatchlings are on average 20cm in length, including tail (and they're stinking cute!).

There is also a direct correlation in the size of the mother and the number of eggs she lays and how often she clutches. The average size for an adult female Chinese alligator is 1.67 meters (~5.5 feet). In contrast, an adult gold dragon in the 9th Pass is what, 45 feet in length? That's 8 times as large. Scale the egg average sizes by the same factor and you get 1.5x.9ft. Now, alligators have lean, low bodies, not the bulky shape of a dragon, so you could argue that the additional body mass could provide room for eggs twice that size.

So, assuming we can argue larger eggs, here's some projections on the size of hatchlings.

Since the hatching length of a Chinese alligator is conveniently the same as the length*width of the egg, I tried extrapolating possible size of a hatchling from a similarly-shaped dragon egg (3 to 2 length to width ratio). I got a total body length of 6 feet that could possibly fit in an 3-foot long egg. Call that a green dragon hatchling, increase egg size by 5% for each color, and I have the following eggs/hatchling sizes:

Green: 3x2 egg, 6ft hatchling
Blue: 3.15x2 egg, 6.3ft hatchling (+5%)
Brown: 3.3x2.1 egg, 6.9ft hatchling (+10%)
Bronze: 3.45x2.2 egg, 7.5ft hatchling (+15%)
Gold: 3.6x2.3 egg, 8.25ft hatchling (+20%)

Now, assuming that around 60% of a dragon's length is neck+tail, the torse would be between 2.5 and 3.5 feet long. Scale the eggs up to the smallest being 5ft long, and you get this:

Green: 5x3.3 egg, 10ft hatchling, 6.7ft torso
Blue: 5.25x3.5 egg, 11ft hatchling, 7.35ft torso (+5%)
Brown: 5.5x3.7 egg, 12ft hatchling, 8ft torso (+10%)
Bronze: 5.75x3.8 egg, 13.25ft hatchling, 8.8ft torso (+15%)
Gold: 6x4 egg, 14.4ft hatchling, 9.6ft torso (+20%)

Now you've got MUCH larger hatchlings, and not something you can pick up and walk away with, let alone would be kneeling to face or anything like that. Which would suggest smaller eggs, in the 3-4 foot region, versus the 5-6 foot region, are what would be necessary for an appropriate hatchling size.

Last edited by semantre; Apr 7 2011 at 12:59 PM. Reason: bad phrasing correction
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Old Apr 8 2011, 01:14 AM   #61
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

But if clutches only vary from ten to fifteen, how could it take so long to lay 'em?
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Old Apr 8 2011, 04:11 AM   #62
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But if clutches only vary from ten to fifteen, how could it take so long to lay 'em?
Have you ever given birth? Sometimes it's quick, sometimes it... isn't.

Assume one egg heading down the oviduct at a time, and then the rate at which they approach depends on how quickly that can happen, and how rapidly the next egg moves into position.

From the description of Ramoth's first hatching, I think you can assume 10-30 minutes for a single egg to be laid. As big as she was, I doubt that her eggs would have been that far scaled up on any other gold's eggs in size, so she maybe had an easy job of it. It's clear that some eggs pop out more or less one right after the other, but look at it like some kind of Lotto machine - sometimes they head down the chute in quick succession, and other times they keep jostling each other out of the way. The queen may also have some control over the speed of the clutching process. It's no good chucking out a dozen eggs like a tennis ball auto-service machine if you can't settle and brood over them properly. There are other sources of delay, aside from just getting the egg lined up at the top end of the oviduct, and the queen squeezing it out - should she encounter any problems like getting egg-bound, and that 10-30 minutes could easily stretch out.

I'd take half an hour per egg as a good average rate for a speedy clutch. That gives you five-ten hours to lay a 10-20 egg clutch. Add, say, an extra hour or so delay after every fourth egg to allow for brooding/malpositioning. A few more so the dragon can take it easy for a bit. Double everything for a large, Ramoth-sized clutch. Allow another quarter-day for the odd major complication... Overall, you can span anything from an afternoon for a quick clutch, to two full days for something big and complicated. Even if it's only a dozen eggs, you could still believably take 36 hours to clutch that completely, particularly if the oviduct is positioned/shaped infelicitously for easy, rapid laying.
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Old Apr 8 2011, 09:01 AM   #63
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

If you also consider that the dragons may be designed to allow for them to stop laying at need - so they can, say, sleep - then you can easily add another 12 hours to a laying time for some well-needed rest. Pushing out those eggs has to be exhausting.
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Old Apr 8 2011, 09:21 AM   #64
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If you also consider that the dragons may be designed to allow for them to stop laying at need - so they can, say, sleep - then you can easily add another 12 hours to a laying time for some well-needed rest. Pushing out those eggs has to be exhausting.
Oooooh if only! I can only imagine that dragons have it easier than humans, but I've still got 5-6 weeks to go, and I don't sleep longer than two hours at a stretch before waking up again in discomfort to change position/go to the loo/wait for the little dude to quit doing the Macarena...

Twelve blissful hours of rest? I'll be lucky if I see anything like that before this time next year! Oh, to be a dragon!
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Old Apr 8 2011, 09:30 AM   #65
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Oooooh if only! I can only imagine that dragons have it easier than humans, but I've still got 5-6 weeks to go, and I don't sleep longer than two hours at a stretch before waking up again in discomfort to change position/go to the loo/wait for the little dude to quit doing the Macarena...

Twelve blissful hours of rest? I'll be lucky if I see anything like that before this time next year! Oh, to be a dragon!
The dragons certainly seem to have gotten the better deal. I mean, you never see a dragon have trouble sleeping. Ramoth is often shown to sleep so deeply people can be talking near her and it doesn't disturb her. And eggs are delightfully non-mobile, so there is no kicking and wiggling like we poor humans have to survive.
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Old Apr 8 2011, 03:24 PM   #66
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"Eggs, Nests and Baby Dinosaurs: A Look at Dinosaur Reproduction" is a really good reference work if you're interested in these issues.
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Old Apr 8 2011, 11:12 PM   #67
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The dragons certainly seem to have gotten the better deal. I mean, you never see a dragon have trouble sleeping. Ramoth is often shown to sleep so deeply people can be talking near her and it doesn't disturb her. And eggs are delightfully non-mobile, so there is no kicking and wiggling like we poor humans have to survive.
Out side of Moreta's worry when her queen is egg heavy, just before she cluches. When she first takes off to join the Weyrleader at the StarStones at Fort.
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Old Apr 12 2011, 12:04 PM   #68
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Yep, right before clutching especially there's an issue with the queens simply being too heavy and awkward to fly well, which suggests the eggs do a lot of developing to size inside the mother (it's even referenced you can see the outline of the eggs through the queen's hide!)
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Old Apr 12 2011, 01:43 PM   #69
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

The reason humans have trouble giving birth is that the exit from the womb opens downwards, so we need a whole bunch of extra muscles around the exit to keep that 8-pound (or more) weight from just dropping out. With other animals the exit is horizontal most of the time.
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Old Apr 12 2011, 08:07 PM   #70
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

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Originally Posted by Anareth View Post
Yep, right before clutching especially there's an issue with the queens simply being too heavy and awkward to fly well, which suggests the eggs do a lot of developing to size inside the mother (it's even referenced you can see the outline of the eggs through the queen's hide!)
In Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern, also the after effect of laying all the eggs. While Moreta's queen sleeps, her belly hide is looking good.

Moreta can worry about the High Reaches Sr. Queen problem. Book is around but not the pgs in question.
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Old Apr 25 2011, 07:07 PM   #71
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

semantre's maths makes sense to me. There is also reference to the newly impressed boys walking down to the bowl with their arm across the hatchling's 'shoulders'. As the boys are usually teenagers, this would indicate a shoulder height of a hatchling at round 5ft.

Re large sizes at birth, on the live born front look at the size of farm animals immediately after birth, foals and calves are HUGE compared to the size of the mother's belly before birth. Nature squashes baby critters to fit the available container, then they 'pop' once out. Even human babies can be large compared to the mother's relative size whilst pregnant.
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Old Jun 24 2012, 08:08 PM   #72
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Someone mentioned earlier that the eggs were soft and flaccid in DF, and in 'The Littlest Dragonboy' "striations" (which I believe are stretch marks?) on the eggs are mentioned. Perhaps as the little dragons grow, the eggs stretch while soft to accmmodate them, hardening over time: when the eggs are too hard to grow and the still-growing dragonet gets too big to be contained, cue Hatching. Also, as they are soft, they'd likely squidge down or squish into the space available till laying, and maybe then inflate/swell/spring back to normal shape?

Or, as I recall, chicken eggs are made from the inside-out as they travel down the chicken: perhaps something like this happens in queens: the first 10-15 eggs are fully-formed, whereas other embryos further back are little more than embros with yolk sacs that get their whites and then shells as the ready-formed eggs get pushed out and the eggs behind move up.

And I always thought that what restricted egg size was a surface-area-to-volume issue, with relation to oxygen absorption through the shell.

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Old Jun 25 2012, 01:03 AM   #73
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

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Originally Posted by Dannette View Post
Someone mentioned earlier that the eggs were soft and flaccid in DF, and in 'The Littlest Dragonboy' "striations" (which I believe are stretch marks?) on the eggs are mentioned. Perhaps as the little dragons grow, the eggs stretch while soft to accmmodate them, hardening over time: when the eggs are too hard to grow and the still-growing dragonet gets too big to be contained, cue Hatching. Also, as they are soft, they'd likely squidge down or squish into the space available till laying, and maybe then inflate/swell/spring back to normal shape?
This. They start out somewhat like turtle or snake eggs, but as squishy as they are, there's only so much you can deform a spherical egg by when it contains a 75% grown (three months or more, then five heated weeks - but 75% grown may be only 30% of the final size) fetus inside it. Get two eggs that get smooshed together, or a twin embryo, or some other deformity... or an overly thick shell that doesn't flex as well, or an egg that starts hardening too fast, and there's plenty of problems you can get.
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Old Aug 14 2014, 08:46 PM   #74
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

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Originally Posted by Dannette View Post
Someone mentioned earlier that the eggs were soft and flaccid in DF, and in 'The Littlest Dragonboy' "striations" (which I believe are stretch marks?) on the eggs are mentioned. Perhaps as the little dragons grow, the eggs stretch while soft to accmmodate them, hardening over time: when the eggs are too hard to grow and the still-growing dragonet gets too big to be contained, cue Hatching. Also, as they are soft, they'd likely squidge down or squish into the space available till laying, and maybe then inflate/swell/spring back to normal shape?
This sounds completely plausible to me. Ruins one of the better fanfics I've read, but still makes the most sense of anything I've seen.
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Old May 21 2015, 01:55 PM   #75
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

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Originally Posted by semantre View Post
So, I got to thinking about the mentions of egg size and size of the hatchling, and realized that while it might be difficult to pinpoint because of the anatomy, we could make some logical projections from egg size about the size of the egg's contents based on some real world eggs from creatures that have a clutching behavior similar to dragons - alligators.

According to The Chinese Alligator: Ecology, Behavior, Conservation, and Culture and this study, Chinese alligator eggs have an average size of 57mm length and 35mm width and average clutch size of 20-30 eggs. The hatchlings are on average 20cm in length, including tail (and they're stinking cute!).

There is also a direct correlation in the size of the mother and the number of eggs she lays and how often she clutches. The average size for an adult female Chinese alligator is 1.67 meters (~5.5 feet). In contrast, an adult gold dragon in the 9th Pass is what, 45 feet in length? That's 8 times as large. Scale the egg average sizes by the same factor and you get 1.5x.9ft. Now, alligators have lean, low bodies, not the bulky shape of a dragon, so you could argue that the additional body mass could provide room for eggs twice that size.

So, assuming we can argue larger eggs, here's some projections on the size of hatchlings.

Since the hatching length of a Chinese alligator is conveniently the same as the length*width of the egg, I tried extrapolating possible size of a hatchling from a similarly-shaped dragon egg (3 to 2 length to width ratio). I got a total body length of 6 feet that could possibly fit in an 3-foot long egg. Call that a green dragon hatchling, increase egg size by 5% for each color, and I have the following eggs/hatchling sizes:

Green: 3x2 egg, 6ft hatchling
Blue: 3.15x2 egg, 6.3ft hatchling (+5%)
Brown: 3.3x2.1 egg, 6.9ft hatchling (+10%)
Bronze: 3.45x2.2 egg, 7.5ft hatchling (+15%)
Gold: 3.6x2.3 egg, 8.25ft hatchling (+20%)

Now, assuming that around 60% of a dragon's length is neck+tail, the torse would be between 2.5 and 3.5 feet long. Scale the eggs up to the smallest being 5ft long, and you get this:

Green: 5x3.3 egg, 10ft hatchling, 6.7ft torso
Blue: 5.25x3.5 egg, 11ft hatchling, 7.35ft torso (+5%)
Brown: 5.5x3.7 egg, 12ft hatchling, 8ft torso (+10%)
Bronze: 5.75x3.8 egg, 13.25ft hatchling, 8.8ft torso (+15%)
Gold: 6x4 egg, 14.4ft hatchling, 9.6ft torso (+20%)

Now you've got MUCH larger hatchlings, and not something you can pick up and walk away with, let alone would be kneeling to face or anything like that. Which would suggest smaller eggs, in the 3-4 foot region, versus the 5-6 foot region, are what would be necessary for an appropriate hatchling size.
Would it be alright if I used these calculations for my Minecraft project? I only just found this thread and a lot of what you guys are saying makes sense. That's pretty cool how you all figured it out.

So if that clutch of smaller sizes are the size of dragon eggs^, how big do you think a wher's eggs would be? According to Todd, a gold wher is about the size of a brown dragon.

I agree about baby dragons being differently proportioned to adults. Considering the comments about how ugly dragon hatchlings look and how clumsy they are, it would make sense for them to be that way. Didn't Anne mention it too?

Actually, aren't all baby animals and humans that way? Big heads, thin limbs that are either too short or too long, baby fat? And baby dragons can trip over their wings if I remember right, so those must be "too big" too. It's probably the same for firelizards. Also, in DLG, it says that firelizards can inflate their chests to twice the normal size. No idea why that was in there but thought it was interesting.

As for adult firelizards... One of you said flits were goose-sized? How did you get that? I've always pictured them being about parrot-sized. Big parrot-sized but still. I found a site that listed largest and smallest sizes for the colors and clutch sizes for the females. The site seems to have been disabled now. But I saved it as a webpage just in case something like that happened. Here is the info that was listed, I added color to the text to make it easier to spot:

Quote:
View Full Version: Firelizards Of Avani
Avani Weyr > 7th Pass Pern > Firelizards Of Avani


Title: Firelizards Of Avani
Description: Color, Ranks, and Sizes


Vala - July 1, 2014 07:13 AM (GMT)
| Firelizards: History, Colors, and Sizes |
Information used from Pern Wiki


| Characteristics |

Fire Lizards are about the size of a large bird. They come in all the same colors as dragons, and the temperament of said colors correspond to their larger cousins, unlike dragons however, men and women can Impress any color of fire lizard, and they do not need to be a certain age to do so. Also, a person can Impress multiple fire lizards. Fire Lizards lack the ability to communicate in words, but can have limited success telepathically communicating pictures and thoughts. They are, however, much more affected by emotions and events around them, to the point of hysteria. There seems to be a group consciousness, on a basic level, that allows all fire lizards to experience large events. For example, the new fire lizards of the ninth pass knew about the volcano eruption at Landing, even though they were not alive for it. There has also been speculation that fire lizards are immortal, or so long lived as to appear so, as they don't appear to age and no one has ever seen one to die of old age or disease. Fire Lizards are very sociable creatures, they travel in fairs and love to sing.


| Impression |

Anne McCaffrey stated in an interview that Fire-Lizards would not commit suicide after the death of their human. This was seemingly debunked in the books published after the interview; where Bronze Zair passed away immediately after Masterharper Robinton died. The difference here is that Zair didn't "go between forever" but simply died.

It could be that a Fire-Lizard will commit suicide if the bond with its human is particularly strong, or that Zair was simply "hanging on" for Robinton's sake.


| History |

Fire Lizards had been present on Pern long before humans colonized the planet, though they differed physically from the fire lizards seen in the wild. Originally, these creatures were called "dragonets" and were more adapted to hunt only in the water than on land. Changes to their genetic code made them more effective land hunters, along with being larger, leaner, and with flatter noses. Many colonists kept them as pets. In an effort to improve them as such pets and protectors, they were exposed to Mentasynth, an Eridani compound intended to strengthen their latent telepathic talents. As these altered dragonets became more prevalent, they eventually became known as fire-dragonets, and then fire-lizards. In the intervening centuries, the Pernese lost the knowledge of the existence of fire-lizards, who had bred with wild dragonets, and their genetics came to replace the original ones of their ancestors for the entire species. During the first pass, their genetic code was speculated to be divergent evolution from a type of sea creature. Tunnel snakes are the other branch. It is unknown how or why they developed such unique characteristics, such as breathing fire, telekinesis, or telepathy. By the Ninth Pass, fire lizards were little more than a myth or legend, and they were not rediscovered until the Southern Continent was settled and explored.


Vala - July 1, 2014 07:13 AM (GMT)
Images were created by Alyssa Davis for Vala. They may not be edited, copied, traced, stolen, or redistributed under and circumstances.

user posted image

Gold firelizards are the descendants of the original 'Dragonets' that the colonist found after arriving on Pern. Their ancestors were the original DNA map for Kitty Ping to create the dragons. The Gold firelizards are very similar to the dragons: she mother clutches, leads the smaller firelizards, and is in charge of her fair. Golds will grow to as long as 2 meters from nose to tail tip. They clutch large amount of eggs and will defend the eggs with their lives. Golds will rise twice a turn and are mature at a turn old.

Size: 2.0-2.5 feet
Clutch Size: 10-15 eggs
Rise Rate: 1-2 per turn
Rarity: 0.5% on Pern


user posted image

Bronze firelizards are similar to their Bronze dragon counterparts. They typically will mate with Gold firelizards and help keep the fair in line and protected. Bronzes will help watch over the clutch with the gold and fend off any intruders that try and come near them. Bronzes grow to close to 2 meters long and are mature at 10 months old.

Size: 1.9-2.2 feet
Clutch Size: N/A
Chases: Golds, rarely greens
Rarity: 1.5% on Pern


user posted image

Brown firelizards are similar to their Brown dragon counterparts. Browns will fly golds and are very successful at mating with them, due to the lack of a major size difference in the five ranks. They are the work force for a fair; they search out good hunting spots for food and shelter from Thread on top of fighting against Thread. Browns are the second largest male firelizard and are mature at 10 months old.

Size: 1.7-2.0 feet
Clutch Size: N/A
Chases: Golds and greens
Rarity: 18% on Pern
[/COLOR]

user posted image

Blue firelizards are very similar to their Blue dragon counterparts. They are more sensitive than the large colors and will bond with humans easier after maturing. They cannot fight long during a Fall but are the most numerous fathers to Green clutches. They are able to out maneuver and keep steady during a green flight than the browns or bronzes. Blue firelizards are the smallest males and are considered mature at 10 months old.

Size: 1.5-1.8 feet
Clutch Size: N/A
Chases: Greens, rarely golds
Rarity: 35% on Pern


user posted image

Green firelizards are the smallest female firelizard on Pern. They are also the most simple-minded out of the creatures and tend to quickly forget everything in a flash. Greens are not leaders, though some try to be, and are best kept to fighting off Thread and hunting for food. When Greens rise to mate, they also clutch eggs although, their eggs are very small and sometimes contain all duds. This is because Greens forget they have had a clutch and will abandon it wherever they laid the clutch. Greens grow only slightly longer than a meter and are mature at 10 months old.

Size: 1.2-1.5 fee
Clutch Size: 1-5 eggs
Rise Rate: 3-5 per turn
Rarity: 45% on Pern






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Uh oh. I just noticed, looks like somebody else got meters and feet mixed up too^!

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Old Jun 2 2015, 05:53 PM   #76
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Ok, so I asked my little brother to help me with the calculations (math is the bane of my existence! >_<) and based on this formula:

max dragon egg (gold) length in feet (3.6) / max gold dragon size in feet (not Ramoth) (42) = 8% * max gold firelizard size in feet (2.5) = 20% * 12 = gold flit egg in inches

He got a queen firelizard egg of 2.4 inches long.

By doing the same thing with a 3ft dragon egg, max green dragon size, and max green firelizard size, he got a green flit egg length of 1.8 inches.

I'm now going to see if I can figure out wher and their egg sizes using what he did. I already know that a queen wher is the size of a brown dragon, so it shouldn't be too hard...
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Old Jun 3 2015, 04:47 AM   #77
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Nice!
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Old Jun 7 2015, 03:02 PM   #78
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Made a little mistake in my last post. Apparently little bro DID use Ramoth's size for the max gold dragon slot in that formula. So instead of 42, it would be 45.

If you plug 42 (normal max gold dragon size) into the equation, you get a long decimal starting with "2.57"

I have no idea how he got 1.8 though... When I plug in the max green dragon (25)/flit (1.5) numbers and a 3f egg I get: "2.16". Which is really weird...

EDIT: Figured it out. To get 1.8, he plugged in 30, which is the maximum size of a blue. I think that was my fault. He asked what the size of a green was and I gave him the wrong number before correcting myself.

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Old Jun 7 2015, 04:18 PM   #79
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

Ok, gold dragon egg size/Ramoth's size * max gold wher size (35 feet since gold whers are as big as brown dragons) = a queen wher egg 2.8 feet long.
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Old Jun 11 2015, 01:42 PM   #80
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Default Re: Dragon eggs and hatchling size

I think I figured out the size of Ruth's egg!

gold dragon egg size/Ramoth's size * Ruth's adult size (20 feet according to DLG) = a 1.6x1 foot egg.

The problem is figuring out Ruth's hatchling size. If I go by egg length*width, I get 1.6, but solving it with:

dragon hatchling size/Ramoth's size*Ruth's adult size

gets me 3.6 if I use a gold hatchling, 2.6 if I use a green hatchling, and 2.8 if I use blue, 3 if I use brown, and 3.3 if I use bronze.

Looks like 2.8 feet might be right, since Ruth is male and baby dragons can fit into an egg half their length according to Semantre's calculations. 1.6 * 2 = 3.2, so Ruth could fit in there pretty well, I'd think.

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