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Old Jun 14 2008, 08:11 PM   #41
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White Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

They also keep the Starsmith active by reading-helping etc. in the "Sky of Pern"
When Todd starts co-writing with his mum.
They come I don't who with what but for a blind person to impress a watch-wher. The 'Slient Harper' Also Todd's book 'Dragonsblood'

I am a person with low vision. Also with some hearing loss. Right now I at a crossroad of learning new ways to learn things.

I may be late posting this thread but just found it.

P.S. Sometime years can look like the same year to me.
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Old Jun 15 2008, 10:03 PM   #42
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Personally, think that if one were born deaf or blind or with any so-called "disability", a Weyr would be a cool place to be. Either if someone was born there, or if they lived there later in life. The more open, accepting attitude of most Weyrs would allow a person to thrive.

Allowing a person who was blind or deaf to be a Candidate would be a VERY careful decision for a Weyrleader. He/she might really like the person for who they are, etc., but they also have the safety of the fighting wings to consider. Other riders and dragons might be affected by this, too, if a rider with any impairment needs help during Threadfighting, then with dragonriders being who they are, they are obviously going to try to help the person. And that might put them in danger, and that's not real fair.

BUT considering that a queen dragon's primary duty is to continue dragonkind, a Weyrleader might aLLow a disabled person to stand Candidacy for that. Especially either during an interval or After, when there is no Thread to worry about. Even people who are "disabled" have their own special abilities (and usually more of them than the temporarily able-bodied), and anyone who is worth anything in leadership should be able to see that and use it to help the overall situation. The best example that I've seen if this in the Pern books is Ruth. I know that he's not human, but there parallels.
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Old Jun 16 2008, 01:29 AM   #43
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

:thumbsup: Weyrlady!
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Old Jun 20 2008, 04:51 PM   #44
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White Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

I don't recall if I told this one befoe or not. If I have sorry. The Starsmith was near-sighted, and by the time of SoP he is 'blind' his eyes are milky-white, with help from D'ram, and other his is still able to teach other about his craft. He was teaching a class at Landing. Also a big part of what dragonriders and other can do After.
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Old Jul 16 2008, 08:13 PM   #45
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

I think with Threadfall "out of the way" (so to speak), a lot of possibilities will open up for a lot of different kinds of folks to be more active participants in their society. Not only do the Pernese have all the info that AIVAS left(which could potentially help make technology that helps people out) , they have the idea that anyone can be useful in some way, and have no hesitation about getting the person the support they need to succeed.

Starsmith Wansor is a perfect example of that, and so is Ruth!

Here on Earth we seem to be now coming around to that attitude (took a few federal laws), but better late thaN never!
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Old Jul 17 2008, 10:57 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bingley View Post
I'm re-reading Dragonsinger at the moment, and have just come across Master Oldive, who I'd completely forgotten about. Was he born a hunchback or did he damage his spine in some way?
I may have answer this question before, he was born that way. He came to the Healer Hall to look for help. In the MasterHarper of Pern.
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Old Sep 20 2008, 10:36 PM   #47
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

I got my 1st Aid certification (again) yesterday, and since it was just basic "Florence Nightingale training" (my personal name for 1st aid), there is none of the fancy techy stuff; ambulances, epinephrine, etc. Pretty primitive stuff- but in a good way!

It got me to thinking about how the Pernese handle it, also lacking the fancy stuff. I mean, not how they treat injuries; I know that a lot of things can be improvised, it just takes more creative thought. I mean, what if someone with an "invisible" condition such as diabetes or asthma Impressed and became a dragonrider? How would they manage it? Could it be done?

My mom is asthmatic, and my cousin is diabetic. I compare their conditions to my own, and know that there is really nothing that keeps them or people like them from reaching their fullest potential. Especially with today's technology, there is "nothing wrong" with them.These things are hidden.

Ya, I know, on Pern they don't have today's technology. There are a lot of things they don't have- but much more that they do. They have the attitude that ALL people can contribute, and they are creative and innovative. They don't just take people at "face value", and are fairly tolerant of differences- in the Wyers!

I'll go ahead and admit it, I was curious about that particular issue (the dragonrider-with-a-disability one), so I'm writing a fanfic to explore it. But the differences between the type of disability my character has, and say, diabetes, are huge!

Be bold, girl! I'm a dreamer, that's just it. Tie me to ground with logic please, there is a paRt of me that says, YES! This can be done, and done well. What would it would take is someone who understands the condition, an accomodating dragon (shouldn't be too hard considering that dragons put up with all sorts of other human issues), and the person themselves needs to be independent and intelligent. In other words, they need to understand themselves, and not just ignore themselves.

So, opinions, please? Do you think that I just set myself up for another fanfic?
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Old Sep 21 2008, 02:37 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Weyrlady View Post
I got my 1st Aid certification (again) yesterday, and since it was just basic "Florence Nightingale training" (my personal name for 1st aid), there is none of the fancy techy stuff; ambulances, epinephrine, etc. Pretty primitive stuff- but in a good way!

It got me to thinking about how the Pernese handle it, also lacking the fancy stuff. I mean, not how they treat injuries; I know that a lot of things can be improvised, it just takes more creative thought. I mean, what if someone with an "invisible" condition such as diabetes or asthma Impressed and became a dragonrider? How would they manage it? Could it be done?

My mom is asthmatic, and my cousin is diabetic. I compare their conditions to my own, and know that there is really nothing that keeps them or people like them from reaching their fullest potential. Especially with today's technology, there is "nothing wrong" with them.These things are hidden.

Ya, I know, on Pern they don't have today's technology. There are a lot of things they don't have- but much more that they do. They have the attitude that ALL people can contribute, and they are creative and innovative. They don't just take people at "face value", and are fairly tolerant of differences- in the Wyers!

I'll go ahead and admit it, I was curious about that particular issue (the dragonrider-with-a-disability one), so I'm writing a fanfic to explore it. But the differences between the type of disability my character has, and say, diabetes, are huge!

Be bold, girl! I'm a dreamer, that's just it. Tie me to ground with logic please, there is a paRt of me that says, YES! This can be done, and done well. What would it would take is someone who understands the condition, an accomodating dragon (shouldn't be too hard considering that dragons put up with all sorts of other human issues), and the person themselves needs to be independent and intelligent. In other words, they need to understand themselves, and not just ignore themselves.

So, opinions, please? Do you think that I just set myself up for another fanfic?
Well said Wyerlady! My dad is diabetic and I have asthma! As my reading I have eye problems too.

I have a idea for a fanfic too but right now too many things agoing on.
Just saw your undate on this post so I thought I drop in an say hi.

If you get any idea please let me know, if you want drop a PM with the link to your story if you post here. I well find it and get asap.

For thing a zany around here. More info in the libary cafe section! GinnyStar
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Old Sep 22 2008, 12:37 AM   #49
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

I can easily see a blind person or deaf showing up on pern. It can happen from complicaitions during pregnacy or right after birth.

Personally, I'd not count one out from Impressing though. If the dragonette chooses someone, then so be it. it'd be quite an adaption. But if the author says"no" then gotta go with it. In fanfic, it could be a differant story.

Like me, I'm considerly legeally blind. I never saw myself as hanicapped or disabled in any way. MY eyesight sucks close up, medium range and distance. At night, I'm night blind if my "Radar" is turned off. As a result the blindness at birth, my hearing is incredibly sensitive and has a slightly extended range in both directions(high and low pitches). A hieghtened proximity sense to pick up vibrations through the floor, or even the street,and heightened sense of smell.(If I'm not stopped up from some cold.) A heightened sense of touch. With the good hearing I developed a 'radar' a form of echolocaition using the environment's ambient sounds so my brain will build a map of the area in order to "see". It's quite sensitive allowing me to detect a cat walking silently through the grass eventhough I can't hear or visually see the feline.

Would I fly on a dragon back as a rider? Probably not unless the dragon Impressed and choose me then I'd have to learn.
It'd be one heck of a challenge, one I'd heartily take a bite out of because it'd be hard. :-D

Time to find me a dragon egg.:-D
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Old Sep 22 2008, 05:21 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Mynn Enz View Post
I can easily see a blind person or deaf showing up on pern. It can happen from complicaitions during pregnacy or right after birth. <sinp>
Like me, I'm considerly legeally blind. I never saw myself as hanicapped or disabled in any way. MY eyesight sucks close up, medium range and distance. At night, I'm night blind if my "Radar" is turned off. As a result the blindness at birth, my hearing is incredibly sensitive and has a slightly extended range in both directions(high and low pitches). A hieghtened proximity sense to pick up vibrations through the floor, or even the street,and heightened sense of smell.(If I'm not stopped up from some cold.) A heightened sense of touch. With the good hearing I developed a 'radar' a form of echolocaition using the environment's ambient sounds so my brain will build a map of the area in order to "see". It's quite sensitive allowing me to detect a cat walking silently through the grass eventhough I can't hear or visually see the feline.
You remind me of Mike May CEO of Sendro Group! http://forums.srellim.org/showpost.php?p=119414 and a bit more
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Old Sep 22 2008, 09:37 PM   #51
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Kewl.

As a few folks before had posted a Blind or Deaf person wouldn't be a candidate. I'm sure nothing would stop them from attending a hatching of a family member. Definatly nothing to stop a dragonette to lock 'sensors' on him/her and make a dash towards them. :-)
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Old Sep 24 2008, 10:49 PM   #52
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

But the lack of Threadfall changes everything, does it not? It's fun to speculate. . .

T Mynn Enz, nice to meet you! Welcome to the forums.

And Ginnystar, I want to get my story up there (here), I really do, so people can tell me what's wrong with it. So finally I decided.. . I've had enough with my own supposed inability to do this, when OTHER people post quite willingly. So, watch out!!!
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Old Sep 24 2008, 11:59 PM   #53
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Thanks Weyrlady. :-)

Lack of thread fall does change things, but if the person is still alive and excelling, nothing should stop them from flying. It'd defiantly take practice to tweek the telepathic link between rider and dragon to where the blind perosn 'sees' through the dragon's eyes. Add that to the other naturally enhanced senses, it'd be something.
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Old Sep 25 2008, 03:06 AM   #54
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

HEHE..Its always fun to guess, with lack of threadfall!


Hmm..

A telepathic link is just that. I dont see them SEEING thru their dragon's eyes. It woudlnt make much sense if they did, since they havent seen anything before, unless they had recently lost their sight.

Also, dosent a rider have to VISUALIZE the place they want to go, when they do "in between"? If thats the case, the only way a blind rider will get there, is the LONG way....unless the dragon can handle it all himself. But since THAT takes alot of concentration, to keep from materializing into things, I dont think a dragon would like the additional benefit of having to keep EXTRA track of a rider who cant see certain possible dangers.

Course, if it was something like a Rider who had been injured, they would at least retain knowledge, on how to MOVE on a dragon's back, and how to react to certain things. Hard to LEARN those things, when you cant see what it is your reacting to. Im not saying its impossible, but for a young dragon, it would be difficult. They are just learning as well. Learning about themselves, and their rider. A more mature dragon/rider team would have a better go of things.

But it would be an interesting experiment...

*gets to work re-reading my books!*
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Old Sep 25 2008, 02:35 PM   #55
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Defiantly a cool experiment.

With a distance glass I'm fine. Considering while in the air, anything coming at you is generally going to be a little slower and longer way off.(Think flying an airplane, not a figther craft.:-).)

I guess noone saw through the dragon's eyes because it wasn't needed. I'd at least try an experiment though. I do have sight but it's difficult at extreme distances and in certain lighting.
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Old Sep 25 2008, 09:12 PM   #56
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

I just have to add that I think the riders DO see through the dragon's eyes occassionally. There is a scene in Dragonflight where F'lar wakes up and looks through Mnementh's eyes; he is sitting on the ledge outside overlooking the weyr bowl.

Also, in Skies, sometimes Golanth gives F'lessan a view of what he is seeing.

I just thought of this: does the "seeing-thru-the-others-eyes" only work with bronze dragons?
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Old Sep 26 2008, 03:04 PM   #57
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Hmm<rubs chin> I don't know about that oen Weyrlady. maybe Golnath and F'Lesssen had a closer connection. I'm curious as to HOW he saw since Dragons have the compund eyes, it'd be awefully disoreinting for a human, unless the rider is used to it. I don't think that's limited to only Bronzes, it's possible all dragons have the capability but won't unless they feel a need or S/he and the rider/s are comfortable with it.
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Old Sep 27 2008, 07:27 AM   #58
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Indeed.

I guess it would depend on the cause of the blindness, if it's something to do with the nerves and/or the eyes, there's no reason why the visual cortex wouldn't work, and might be able to accept input from the dragon. (Blind people who hear in 3D, something most people can't do, are very probably using parts of the visual cortex to do it, the brain is very adaptable and will reprogram itself to some extent to use available resources.) The dragon would have to do a bit more work, by say getting a visual reference from the watchdragon. However, that would make it very difficult for the dragonrider to go anywhere outside the Weyr!

There's a reason why Anne's said there's no place for handicapped people riding dragons.
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Old Sep 27 2008, 01:59 PM   #59
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Blind peole do hear in something akin to 3-D. I know because I do it, I also add smells. :-D When I'm in a room, I can whistle or do a soft tongue click, the sounds bouncing off the objects, I can 'see" the items there. I've done it outside in a parking lot full of cars(Closed the eys totaly) and could'see' where the cars were even the little concrete barrers. Don't wanna trip on those.

There's a guy in a documentry Discovery Channel and National geographic who is TOTALY blind yet he rides a ten speed through town and doesn't hit anything. He uses echolocation like I described. He emits a tongue click. This can be taught to other blind folks and sighted ones in about 3-4 hours. Getting precision like the 'creator' of blind Echolocation takes practice and time. A cool example of how precise this is, the interveiwer asked the guy what could he 'see". Blind man did a tongue click or two while turning his head about. He said: "Hmm. there's something over my head,(Pointing upwards at the light skrim-semi transparent sheet of muslin fabric) like a fabric, a wall over to my right that has plants all over it. There's a small furry thing about this far from me(He gestures a foot over his head pointing at the sound boom.), There's the camera man. Course there's grass, and a tree over here. a large one(pointing to the left side at an oak.) a sidewalk past the camera guy."
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Old Sep 27 2008, 02:10 PM   #60
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

Now, I'm not going to discount what you yourself say you do, and I have not watched the NatGeo documentary myself. That said, however, and knowing a little something about how echolocation works, I find it very hard to believe that a 'normal' human can use echolocation to high precision. Part of how it works is the sensitive parts of the inner ear reacting to air vibrations and the results being turned into a 'visual map' of the surroundings in the brain. Bats do it. Dolphins do it ("let's do it, let's fall in love ..." LOL No, sorry ....) - and they have highly specialised parts of their brains to allow them to do so.

I mean no disrespect when I say this, but using a normal brain and normal inner-ear set up (assuming that this man's brain & ear set-up and chemistry is not vastly different from a sighted person) and making safe decisions about his surroundings all whilst riding a very noisy and vibratory motorbike and with all the other traffic sounds? That can't be safe!!

However, I am really, really happy to be proved wrong! Just some healthy skepticism to liven everyone's evening! LOL
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Old Sep 27 2008, 03:01 PM   #61
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Dolphinic sonar penetraits soft targets(a person's body for instance) they see INSIDE a human or fish. A human will never be able to do that without specilised equipment(MRI, CAT, PET machines). Few of us have a multi-million dollar/pind machine in our pocket. (wouldn be cool if they ever get a pen sized portable version as in the show Eureka.:-).) The type I mean is being able to naviagite around objects. Although having a bat or olphine type sonar would rock, but saly I don't have that.
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Old Sep 27 2008, 03:45 PM   #62
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Default Re: Deaf Pernese and Blind Pernese? And Color Blind People?

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Dolphinic sonar penetraits soft targets(a person's body for instance) they see INSIDE a human or fish. A human will never be able to do that without specilised equipment(MRI, CAT, PET machines). Few of us have a multi-million dollar/pind machine in our pocket. (wouldn be cool if they ever get a pen sized portable version as in the show Eureka.:-).) The type I mean is being able to naviagite around objects. Although having a bat or olphine type sonar would rock, but saly I don't have that.
hmmm... how to shrink massive magnets into a pen size object...
Actually putting an x-ray or neutron source in my pocket.
I'd be dubious about the amount of detail. It might be resolvable but you'd need a lot of clicks
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Old Sep 27 2008, 08:24 PM   #63
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Yeah, no detail like that. Humans can't click that fast naturally.

A lot with this naviagtion is the use of the natural proximity sense too. it's not JUST sounds, but other things too.

Here's an article showinga teen who can o this.
I also found a file of the blind man I' mentioned riding the bike at moderate speeds down a street.
No it's not bat precise to swoop around small wires, but it's prescise enough to avoid a trash can in the way.:-)

An article of a young teen using echolocation to ride about.http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3341739.ece

Check them out.
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Old Sep 27 2008, 11:54 PM   #64
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I do not know about a blind person as a canidate, but I see no reason a deaf person can not be one. You hear the dragon inside your head NOT with your ears.

If a dragon can transmit what he sees into a rider's brain then the rider can remember what he sees and give the cordanates beck to the dragon at a latter time. If he became blind after impressing then he could give cordanates from what he remembers.

If there was a blind rider than it would most likly be one that was blinded after impressing.
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Old Sep 28 2008, 11:44 AM   #65
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Gigdget - I think a ten-speed would be a bicycle, not a motorbike. Much quieter!
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Old Oct 11 2008, 07:47 AM   #66
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What about Pellar, in Dragon's fire? He's mute isn't he?
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Old Oct 12 2008, 04:06 AM   #67
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Well, I'm one of those who completely discounts anything Todd writes. They're canon to Anne and some of the most fanatical fans, but not to me.
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Old Oct 12 2008, 06:53 PM   #68
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Yeah, no detail like that. Humans can't click that fast naturally.

A lot with this naviagtion is the use of the natural proximity sense too. it's not JUST sounds, but other things too.

Didn't Ray Charles do something like that? I think there was an article in some magazine (AARP, I think) that Ray sometimes navigated around his hometown by listening to the sounds of his footsteps (along with counting the steps). I imagine they sounded different when he passed a brick wall, a large store window, or an open space.
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Old Oct 12 2008, 07:54 PM   #69
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Multi-Facets, I don't know much about Ray's history. It's possible he did. I'd not doubt if he had used a similar method.
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Old Aug 13 2014, 02:01 AM   #70
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If I have sorry. The Starsmith was near-sighted, and by the time of SoP he is 'blind' his eyes are milky-white, with help from D'ram, and other his is still able to teach other about his craft.
Sounds like age-related cataracts.
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Old Aug 15 2014, 11:40 PM   #71
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Sounds like age-related cataracts.
Might just be, but I also know in real life a friend who like him, he when blind after many years.

There Breide who had a sharp memory, and he spoke like he was deaf. RoP
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Old Nov 15 2014, 02:47 PM   #72
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I just have to add that I think the riders DO see through the dragon's eyes occassionally. There is a scene in Dragonflight where F'lar wakes up and looks through Mnementh's eyes; he is sitting on the ledge outside overlooking the weyr bowl.

Also, in Skies, sometimes Golanth gives F'lessan a view of what he is seeing.

I just thought of this: does the "seeing-thru-the-others-eyes" only work with bronze dragons?
Moreta and Orlith do it during Fall.
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Old Nov 19 2014, 08:56 PM   #73
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Have been following this thread for some time and just realized I've never posted anything ... mostly because I have far too much to say than could fit in a single post. But I'll take a stab at this ...

First, I am pre-lingually, profoundly deaf myself, use primarily American Sign Language, am a high-level professional, and have been heavily involved in the deaf community and in advocacy for education and services for deaf and hard of hearing people all my life. Anything anyone needs to know, any burning questions, I can answer I haven't seen anyone else with my background commenting on this topic, and I honestly do believe that it's very difficult for most people to fully understand all the issues and complications involved in growing up deaf, or the history of deaf people in various societies, or even the medical and educational issues involved. Then you have all these assumptions by hearing people about what it MUST be like to be deaf, or the limitations we face (the majority of those are externally imposed on us because of those assumptions). Additionally, the condition of deaf people in modern American or British society CANNOT be compared to what it might look like on Pern. There are so many possibilities ... read "Everyone Here Spoke Sign Language" to get an idea of how it's possible for deaf people to have far fewer disadvantages in an agrarian society than in a more advanced one like ours. On the flip side, with an educational system that is heavily musical, deaf Pernese would definitely be at a disadvantage. Then again, you have a more tightly knit, caring society ... then again, a militaristic one ... I keep going back and forth on what it would be like to grow up deaf, or become deaf (aka military veterans), on Pern.

A little off-track here: Modern attitudes towards deafness as a burden/disability have long roots, going back to the Aristotelean school of thought that if one cannot hear, one cannot learn. I can see that being transported to Pern by the colonists, but I would devoutly hope that Earth had advanced beyond that thinking by the time they left and that Pern never has anyone like Aristotle! Unfortunately, you do see a strain of this in Anne herself. I remember when I was about 18 years old, I participated in one of the old Kitchen Table online chats, and lo and behold, Anne herself signed on! I was beyond thrilled to have the opportunity to chat with her about our horses, and I asked her if there could ever be deaf characters or dragonriders on Pern. She said no very flatly and added that genetic deafness would have been eradicated and that anyone who became deaf would not be able to work at anything better than stable cleaning (not her exact words, but along those lines of drudgery). I was beyond crushed to hear that from my favorite author. I mean, seriously crushed. That was the last time I was ever on KT. Imagine my reaction when, in ATWOP, criminality is punished by deafening and then, in Skies of Pern, the deaf-then-not-deaf dude is a villain. Ugh.

Back on track: Regardless of Anne's opinions, I still think there absolutely would be deaf people on Pern. Many factors make this possible - in utero conditions, random genetic mutations post-settlement, plagues, illnesses, and accidents. It's natural for a population to have a broad range of types and causes of deafness. Only 60% of babies born deaf are deaf because of inherited genetics. That leaves 40% who aren't genetically deaf. And then you get all these illnesses and accidents, and you absolutely have at least several hundred deaf people at any given time on Pern. It is also possible for a random genetic mutation to, within a few hundred years, give rise to a pocket of higher prevalence of deafness, especially with isolated, agrarian communities that are more prone to intermarriages (i.e. the Weald in Kent, Britain, in the 1600s and the al-Sayyid Bedouin tribe currently). These are exactly the conditions you have on Pern, thanks to thread and lack of advanced technology.

These examples of agrarian societies with higher-than-usual incidences of deafness would make for fascinating case studies that could lead to a fanfic extrapolating what it might look like to have deaf children and adults on Pern. What would life on Pern be like for a prelingually deafened child vs. a dragonrider who becomes deaf in an accident (threadscored, falls off dragon, hits head on something)? With the prelingually deafened child, you get all the problems of education, and in order to write that approach well, one has to understand the problematic history of the oral approach to education, which, when implemented circa 1900, basically cratered literacy rates among deaf Americans. Only modern technology has somewhat helped improve this, and the Pernese wouldn't have that. So, for a deaf child to successfully learn and communicate on Pern and not end up a drudge doing menial tasks, some sort of visual communication method would have to develop (or be rediscovered from the archives). That requires a very caring family, a very understanding and sensitive harper, the capability for individualized education, a tight-knit community, no advanced education requirements for career success, self-sufficient economies, etc. For the dragonriders, an useful case study is returning veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan who have lost their hearing and struggle to reintegrate in society, especially with their families and friends and in the workplace. And anyone who wants to write a good fanfic about this would need to at least understand the emotional and psychological impacts on the deaf child/adult and family members .. what does it FEEL like to be deaf? What are the daily frustrations and rewards? Because there CAN be rewards and benefits that hearing people often don't realize or validate.

I guess I should consider writing these fanfics myself but knowing myself, I'd put way too much into them ... I'll let someone else talk now

Quick reading re: "Everyone Here Spoke Sign Language" and several points I've brought up: http://everything2.com/title/Deafnes...2527s+Vineyard It's really an excellent summary and explains so much more I haven't included - deaf people being involved in economy and politics in an agrarian society, for example.

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Old Nov 22 2014, 02:43 PM   #74
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I'm listening to Sidransky_ Ruth In silence_ growing up hearing in a deaf world
and I have learned to understand a few signs in ASL like Thank You. Helped some one out. I was also at tech collage were they had a lot of folks who were deaf, and or learning to be Sign Language Interpreter @ Xenolith thanks for the link, bookmarked to read later.

I am self-taught fingerspelling via a book about Helen Keller (We share the birthday just a different year), and used it to ask someone to stop hitting me signed NO into her hand it worked, she was blind and deaf.

I have a hearing loss and as for folks who are hard of hearing Breide from The Renegades of Pern, is show to possible be deaf, that how is sounded to me from listening to it.
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Old Dec 1 2014, 07:36 AM   #75
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Xenolith - thank you for your post! I'm sorry you had the type of "meeting" you did with AMC, but glad you're here now.

I'd be really interested in reading any fanfics you might do with a deaf character...I really like stories of any kind that have deep-seated truth to them. And one of the beauties of fanfic is that you can take the best parts from the original, but then transform or fill in the gaps in cases where the original author may have had some blind spots. AMC did some things very right, but also some things very wrong (as you found out in such a distressingly personal way.)

So, here's my ideas. I'm hearing, however, so I apologize in advance if I say something in ignorance or error. What I know is basically from my own reading on the subject, and my own theories.

I think a good topic or setting for a fic like this would be one that explores the relationship between the Harper and Healer Halls. As you note, education on Pern is musical, which automatically puts a person deaf from birth or a young age at a huge disadvantage. However, you can also posit that deaf individuals may "naturally" go to the Healer Hall, because their parents want to know if there's a way to restore hearing, or because they themselves want to know if they lost their hearing later in life.

The Harper and Healer Halls are two parts of the fragmented early educational system of Pern. I mean, those Halls are situated in the building that was meant for higher education on Pern, if I remember correctly. So even if the Harper Hall is led by the most narrow-minded, bullheaded Masterharper who absolutely refuses to think a deaf person could learn to communicate, I think that a cross-crafting Healer would inevitably tackle the issue, because to me it would only make sense that the Healer Hall has as deep a commitment to education as the Harper Hall does, even if in most cases the Harper Hall produces the teachers. But the Healer Hall and Harper Hall are two sides of the same coin--they arose out of the original educational system, and are housed in the same building!

So, I would posit there could easily be two populations of deaf individuals on Pern (or three, but the third population would not have happy lives): The first population would be centered at Fort, stemming from a Harper/Healer collaboration to create a Pernese form of sign language, and also teach writing, because if you know how to write, you then can potentially be an apprentice for any number of Crafts even if you can not hear. It would become known that people who had deaf relatives or children could send them there to be educated, if the local Harper could not do so. So, even without genetic causes passing deafness from parent to child, there would still be a stable population at Fort to fuel the community, due to newcomers, even if any children born to deaf parents were hearing. (And those children would arguably be the only bilingual children on Pern!)

The second would be a Weyr population, largely made up of individuals who were born hearing but lost it due to thread-fighting accidents, with perhaps some individuals who couldn't/wouldn't make the trek to Fort. Their version of sign would likely be based off of dragonrider signals, and might not be mutually understood by the folks at Fort, although it would be understood between Weyrs (between and all facilitating inter-Weyr communication, plus Benden's isolation. Thought: would Benden riders have evolved a form of sign that is no longer comprehensible to Oldtimer riders? Secondary thought: you could also argue that deaf dragonriders would be highly motivated to develop their telepathic capabilities, in order to circumvent the rider-tells-his-dragon-to-tell-their-dragon-to-tell-their-dragon's-rider chain. I wonder how Lessa would interact with a telepathic deaf rider?)

The third population would be highly dependent on the local communities, and their isolation or lack of it. In narrow-minded holds, there might not be any help available, so you end up with Anne's harsh vision of being regulated to drudgery. For example, I don't know that a deaf person in Menolly's home hold would have a very good or fulfilling life. They're not at all tolerant of diversity.

On the other hand, there's a community on the east coast of the United States which historically had MUCH higher rates of deafness, and from what I remember reading, for several generations most people hearing and deaf alike knew sign, and I remember reading about someone who interacted with a group of old ladies who would actually code-switch, and go from speaking to sign and back, like many bilingual people do.

So there's no reason Pern can't have something like that, although I think it might be more prone to happening in a Hold that practices some sort of Craft that might contribute to deafness. Occupational hazard. I think Mining would fit best; if you're listening to explosives go off every day since childhood (or whenever apprentices are taken on), it'd be easy to lose your hearing. So a small Mining hold could have an insular type of sign language, that deaf and hearing alike learn because it's basically necessary for everyday life.

So yeah, I guess I could see at least four different outcomes on Pern for populations of deaf people. You could write a LOT of good stories!

Related, I actually have an original universe where there's a very high percentage of the population that is deaf, so that nearly everyone knows sign, whether they are deaf themselves or not. My main character is not deaf, but she's bilingual in sign and spoken language, because her mentor/tutor is deaf, from a deaf family.

So if it seems strange that me, a random AMC fan who is not deaf herself has such a long-winded bunch of thoughts on this, it's mostly because I'm applying thoughts and research I've done for my original fic to Pern!

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Old Dec 17 2014, 02:56 PM   #76
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Thank you so much for your well-thought-out response, D.M. Domini! I adore your Pern-related work on AO3 and would be very curious about the fics you mentioned that involve deaf people. You seem to have a good grasp on how Pern could be constructed to handle deaf people of various categories. Brilliant ideas and now I'm feeling more like I SHOULD just write my damn stories already.

I agree with you that education of young/prelingually deafened children would naturally be done in the Healer Hall. Deaf education in the US/UK (Western societies) is so medicalized in modern times, even in public schools, and I could see that system filtering down to Pern with the result that the Healer Hall handles it rather than the Harper Hall, even if no actual medical healing takes place. I'm fairly certain that deaf people would start appearing during the First Pass, when the colonists still had computers and the ability to search files (like Jemmy and Stonehenge during Dragonseye later on). Then you'd have these records in the Healer Hall and, I'm sure, as part of healer education on how to identify and refer deaf patients to the main Hall. In the US, many parents move to other cities and states so that their deaf children can enroll in schools for the deaf or public school programs with excellent reputations. I can see some Pernese parents pulling up stakes, especially if they're crafters, and moving to Fort Hold. I can also see other Pernese parents who are holders shipping preteen deaf kids off to Fort to board there - these kids would be the most likely to be severely language-delayed and end up in drudge/menial roles. The critical mass and ease of transportation/communication just wouldn't be there for the Harper Hall to have an early intervention program in place, especially for smaller holders. Even just 20-30 deaf kids at any given time would be enough to set up a program/small school at the Healer Hall.

As for sign language evolving ... you typically see that happening if there's significant migration or blending of groups/cultures (such as Martha's Vineyard Sign Language's influence on American Sign Language after the deaf islanders migrated to the mainland). But within a geographically static community, sign language generally doesn't appear to shift that much structurally. There's video documentation of sign language from 1910-1920 (http://nad.org/news/2010/12/historic...brary-congress). The signs and fingerspelling are very similar, if not identical, to modern signing, and drawings exist from as far back as the 1500s that document the same fingerspelling. I'd expect more regional variation (i.e., US and UK sign language are vastly different, I can't even understand a deaf Brit!) especially with the lack of mobility in an agrarian society like Pern. So my theory is that a Fort Weyr oldtimer probably could understand a 9th Pass Fort Weyr dragonrider's signs, but not Benden's. But go back even further to, say, 5th or 6th Pass, and you'd start having issues even in the same geographic area, I'd think. UNLESS ... the Healer Hall's education has an impact on standardizing Pernese sign language and the main differences come from "home signs" invented by individual holder families.

By the way, you're thinking of Martha's Vineyard for the US east coast community. That's the historical example I referred to in my first post and I provided some links about it.

And ... another connection with McCaffrey's books I have is ... see picture. And, no, I've never had any genetic testing done. No other deaf people in my family.

http://jayhawkeditor.files.wordpress.../11/pye-14.jpg

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Old Dec 17 2014, 02:56 PM   #77
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Gah, what did I just do!? Sorry for the HUGE picture.
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Old Dec 17 2014, 03:38 PM   #78
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If you replace the image tags with url tags, it will just appear as a clickable link.
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Old Jan 25 2015, 03:42 PM   #79
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and now I'm feeling more like I SHOULD just write my damn stories already.
Please do, I'd love to read your stories!

Quote:
I agree with you that education of young/prelingually deafened children would naturally be done in the Healer Hall. Deaf education in the US/UK (Western societies) is so medicalized in modern times, even in public schools, and I could see that system filtering down to Pern with the result that the Healer Hall handles it rather than the Harper Hall, even if no actual medical healing takes place.
Yeah, given AMC's culture is heavily western (even if asian/indian peoples are name-checked, the CULTURE is still heavily western, and heavily American at that even if she move to Ireland) I do think support would appear in the medical sector first.

Quote:
I'm fairly certain that deaf people would start appearing during the First Pass, when the colonists still had computers and the ability to search files (like Jemmy and Stonehenge during Dragonseye later on). Then you'd have these records in the Healer Hall and, I'm sure, as part of healer education on how to identify and refer deaf patients to the main Hall. In the US, many parents move to other cities and states so that their deaf children can enroll in schools for the deaf or public school programs with excellent reputations. I can see some Pernese parents pulling up stakes, especially if they're crafters, and moving to Fort Hold. I can also see other Pernese parents who are holders shipping preteen deaf kids off to Fort to board there - these kids would be the most likely to be severely language-delayed and end up in drudge/menial roles. The critical mass and ease of transportation/communication just wouldn't be there for the Harper Hall to have an early intervention program in place, especially for smaller holders. Even just 20-30 deaf kids at any given time would be enough to set up a program/small school at the Healer Hall.
I think that the tradition of Fostering would play heavily into things. How exactly, I don't know, but I think the Pernese might be a bit more willing than us to foster, so you might end up with foster groups made up of deaf people. They might interact somewhat with the Healer Hall, or form enclaves around Pern.

Quote:
So my theory is that a Fort Weyr oldtimer probably could understand a 9th Pass Fort Weyr dragonrider's signs, but not Benden's.
But given Benden is the dominant Weyr, and N'ton, who later went on to lead Fort Weyr, was originally a Benden rider, don't you think there'd be significant assimilation from Benden? I guess it would depend when someone came from, and when they came TO. If it was when Fort Weyr was still heavily oldtimer, then there would be little shift. If it was later in the past, couldn't there be heavy borrowing of Benden signs?

Quote:
But go back even further to, say, 5th or 6th Pass, and you'd start having issues even in the same geographic area, I'd think. UNLESS ... the Healer Hall's education has an impact on standardizing Pernese sign language and the main differences come from "home signs" invented by individual holder families.
Given how distressed Robinton was to learn that the verbal language shifted, I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere along the way there might have been pressure from the Healer or Harper Hall to keep signs "pure". That said, how successful that would have been would totally be up in the air. The verbal shifts were not prevented--there seemed at least to be a vowel shift given the way they reacted to AIVIS's speech.

Quote:
By the way, you're thinking of Martha's Vineyard for the US east coast community. That's the historical example I referred to in my first post and I provided some links about it.
Yes! That's what I was remembering.

Quote:
And ... another connection with McCaffrey's books I have is ... see picture. And, no, I've never had any genetic testing done. No other deaf people in my family.

http://jayhawkeditor.files.wordpress.../11/pye-14.jpg
Wow, you're a real-life Damia! Or Rhyssa op Owen!

I admit I keep hoping the early silver I have in my hair (started appearing in my early twenties) turns into a cool stripe like yours, but all I'm getting is early tinsel that's not really all that confined to one spot. Maybe I'll turn into a Rowan in a decade, haha.
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Old Jan 26 2015, 07:30 PM   #80
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Great point re: fostering. That would be an excellent factor to consider. You do get deaf people who prefer to foster/adopt deaf children, but also hearing people who think they would do a better job of raising a deaf child than a deaf parent/foster parent would. But it would be great if a foster parent had several deaf children together for solidarity.

As for oldtimer/9th Pass dragonriders understanding each other ... I think I used a poor example, with Benden being the only Weyr in the 9th Pass and the degree of "infiltration," as you put it. What if it was a later 5th Pass and later 6th Pass interaction in which both Passes had 5+ Weyrs that were fairly autonomous. I seem to recall reading somewhere in the books that Weyrs didn't interact much with each other during a Pass. Hmmm ... food for thought.

Speaking of lingual shifts, I just had a moment today in which someone (a native New Yorker) played a prank on one of our hearing interns. The intern asked how to sign "Had a good weekend?" The NYer told her the sign for weekend was *rubs derriere several times*. So the intern goes off thinking that's the sign and we had to correct her, and I asked the NYer where the heck that obscenity came from, because it was not a sign I had ever seen despite living in several different geographic areas of the US. She told me it was New York slang based on phonetics: "weak end". Sigh ... Quite a very region-specific slang-sign. If someone came up to me asking "Had a good weekend?" with that slang, I would have thought they were asking me, "Had a good butt-rub?"

BTW, I love this conversation. And, when do we get a new chapter of Tarnished Queen??? I left a comment over there and have been checking every single day to see if you've posted a chapter
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