Meeting yourself in time. Is it fatal?

[Dragonlover]

In all of the 15 books written solely by anne mccaffrey, it mentions time and again that meeting yourself in time is severly weakening, if not fatal. But in both Dragon's Kin and Dragonsblood, it mentions that both masterharper Zist and Dragonrider M'ridin met themselves between, one realizing it was him, and the other not. How could this be explained without contradicting anything written? Anne makes it clear in the Introduction of Dragonsblood that she checked Todd's work closely and thoroughly.

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Dragonlover

In all of the 15 books written solely by anne mccaffrey, it mentions time and again that meeting yourself in time is severly weakening, if not fatal.

Does it?

Existing in the same time as another version of yourself is weakening, true, and the effects get worse the more of you there are at any given point in the timeline. But I don't think we see any characters other than those you mentioned actually meeting their past/future selves. And I'm fairly sure that we don't have any evidence to suggest it could be fatal.

Of course, I could be remembering things wrong. Anyone got any citations to hand?

[Dragonlover]

in the books there are mentions of a belief that you would die when you met yourself, but the meetings were in the books associated with Todd McCaffrey

[Hans]

Todd decided that really meeting yourself (meeting as in looking yourself in the eye and it seems even touching) has only a (relatively) slight effect; as heir to Pern it seems his prerogative *shrug*

Meeting yourself in general (from a certain distance) can't be fatal as dragonriders (e.g. Lessa and Kylara) went back in time and "saw" themselves. About kylara it's even said she couldn't resist doing it many times.

[Spaceman Spiff]

People always make up myths and beliefs, and the "fatal" thing seems to be one of them for the Pernese. But it's still explicitly stated that it IS a strain, and not just a slight one. I don't think it would be too unreasonable for a person to black out when meeting themselves, but I highly doubt it really is that life-threatening.

But Todd still disgregards established material and hardly includes any strain. I seriously do not understand how Anne could have sifted through his material that much and found nothing wrong with it, it's ridiculous.

[Ryuu]

F'nor said that nearly everyone in Southern Weyr was affected, EXCEPT Kylara--yet the riders, who are more than halfway across the planet, are devastated, but Kylara, who routinely pops in over her Daddy's Hold in order to watch herself, shows no effect what-so-ever?

Also, the strain apparently accumulates over the time you're there--it was worse for the "much older F'nor", yet a few minutes later, a clearly enthusiastic "older F'nor" reported that the eggs had all hatched and wondered how F'lar "knew" to send just 17 people for Impression.

It evidently depends on the person how resistant you are to the strain.

Maybe M'ridin was one of Kylara's ancestors? As for MasterHarper Zist, there's still the question as to whether a Non-Impressed individual would even be affected by timing--since it's my belief that temporal-sickness is caused by being Impressed to a Pernese native, and the strain is the result of the native's confusion as to which version of "you" the dragon is supposed to be Looking to.

Jaxom-watching-the-Hatching-grounds was severely affected when Jaxom-returning-the-egg popped in because Jaxom-watching-the-Hatching-grounds' Ruth was OUTSIDE, where that younger dragon would "see" TWO Jaxoms, BOTH of them nearly the same distance from the younger Ruth....But the Ruth belonging to Jaxom-returning-the-egg was MUCH closer to HIS rider, who was still sitting on his back, than the Jaxom-watching-the-Hatching-grounds, who was still in the viewing stands.

And yes, the 9th Pass riders speculated that meeting one's self would be fatal--but they never put it to the test!--so it remained an assumption of fatality.

Todd simply had one of his riders put it to the test and proved it was a myth. A caveat has to be kept in mind, however--The strain on the rider could potentially cause the future pair returning to their time to get lost...so people may still die from a timing event, but NOT EVERYONE! After all, people and dragons get lost all the time between, but NOT EVERYONE!

This is one of those things that has most certainly been answered for years within the McCaffrey household while the debate raged like wildfire (& wild speculations) outside.

[Becky]

It may be that it was a 'rumor' started to deter young riders from timing it too much. A very strong deterent to young riders think that you might die if you met yourself.
As for Kylara, I think her personality has a lot to do with how she reacted to watching herself. She fed off of that sort of thing, she was so vain. So how a person reacts could depend on their own personality or ego.

[Brenda]

Well, considering the weakness that came over Lessa when she came out over Ruatha for the third time, with the dragons - I imagine they would logically conclude that the closer you would get to yourself, the worse it would be. Close contact could be enough to kill you.

I don't believe that Kylara actually went back to watch herself - just couldn't stop talking about wanting to.

[Hans]

It depends indeed on how you read the two passage dealing with that. Personally I don't think Kylara only thought about it (as you and Lessa seem to think) but think she actually did it (as the first passage seems to imply).

[Dragonlover]

thats true, i do remember that she mentioned how much of a fool she was to want to go between and look at herself, but it never mentions herself actually doing it.

[Ryuu]

Originally Posted by Dragonlover

thats true, i do remember that she mentioned how much of a fool she was to want to go between and look at herself, but it never mentions herself actually doing it.

No--It was other people (Lessa, F'lar & future-version-F'nor) commenting about it.

[ChrisG]

I always interpreted that to mean that Kylara did watch herself, quite a number of times, and I quite definitely feel that Kylara was affected by it, just that she has a different way of showing it.

As for Zist and M’ridin … until I see it happen, I’m going to consider that an old Harper’s tale.

[Myt]

Hey, if M'ridin had done what his "older self" had said, what would have happened? M'ridin says something about a time paradox...

[Dragonlover]

it is believed that if you convince someone to make something to happen that hasn't happened at all, events will become chaotic and may blow a hole in the space-time continuum.

Besides, if you had gone into the past to prevent something, and you suceed, then it never happened. Therefore you dont have the motivational force to go back in time to prevent the same event from happening, since it never happened. This could be what causes a time paradox and makes you incapable of acting upon certian wishes, as described in dragonsblood.

[Spaceman Spiff]

That's why Pern style travel is completely pointless, there's no control whatsoever, it's left up to fate to decide who is able to go back and who can't. There's not even a starting point. It's an endless loop of insanity

[Keladry]

Insanity! Yay!

[Chimaerrha]

also in D'Blood, M'hall goes back in time to warn himself without going crazy.

[Brenda]

That made me think of something interesting, maybe for a fanfic - a dragonrider needs to warn himself, but knows he can't get too close - so he leaves a note...

[Ryuu]

Under no cercumstances visit P4C-970

--O'neill

It's your writing, bronze rider...

[Spaceman Spiff]

Well, I don't think the dragons have much interest in meeting the Aschen anyways

[Brenda]

[Ryuu]

Originally Posted by Brenda

Stargate SG1 reference Episode titled "2010" (I think a 5th season show)

[LadyDeerskin]

....somehow Zist managed to cope with it. If Todd wrote about it, with his mom vetting the book, then something we don't yet know about made it possible. Good question, though!

Originally Posted by Dragonlover

In all of the 15 books written solely by anne mccaffrey, it mentions time and again that meeting yourself in time is severly weakening, if not fatal. But in both Dragon's Kin and Dragonsblood, it mentions that both masterharper Zist and Dragonrider M'ridin met themselves between, one realizing it was him, and the other not. How could this be explained without contradicting anything written? Anne makes it clear in the Introduction of Dragonsblood that she checked Todd's work closely and thoroughly.

[edith]

Could it be the whole dragon thing-
Kylara went back to pre dragon times for her,
Zist wasn't a rider

but Lessa was at Ruatha 3 times, including once pre-dragon.

Moreta didn't feel strained when she went forward, just dis-orientated but then she didn't exist then at all.

[Ryuu]

Originally Posted by edith

Could it be the whole dragon thing-
Kylara went back to pre dragon times for her,
Zist wasn't a rider

but Lessa was at Ruatha 3 times, including once pre-dragon.

Moreta didn't feel strained when she went forward, just dis-orientated but then she didn't exist then at all.

It's my belief, too. The non-riders who accompanied Moreta to her future were likewise completely unaffected.

I also think that Moreta's disorientation was that she expected to feel the effects but didn't.

[sjslack]

Moreta's disorientation may also have come from the fact that in that futureshe went to, her dragon no longer existed. Therefore i'm assuming there would be no bond whatsoever.

[Ryuu]

Originally Posted by sjslack

Moreta's disorientation may also have come from the fact that in that futureshe went to, her dragon no longer existed. Therefore i'm assuming there would be no bond whatsoever.

That's right! I was thinking she had gone with her own dragon to the future, but both she and her dragon would've been gone by then.

[Chimaerrha]

Originally Posted by Ryuu

That's right! I was thinking she had gone with her own dragon to the future, but both she and her dragon would've been gone by then.

She and Orlith still could've gone together to the future: they just wouldn't've heard themselves. As it is, Moreta and the others rode on wingleader B'lerion's bronze Nabeth.

[Ryuu]

Originally Posted by Chimaerrha

She and Orlith still could've gone together to the future: they just wouldn't've heard themselves. As it is, Moreta and the others rode on wingleader B'lerion's bronze Nabeth.

Except that her version of Orlith was left in the past to brood over the eggs.

Had her situation been the same as the other riders, Moreta knew that she should've felt some version of temporal sickness as her future version of Orlith would've had two riders: the past and future versions of Moreta existing at the same time, and this fact was part of what made her confused--the other being was that she was a dragonless rider at that moment.

In theory, Moreta could've arrived after her destined fatal jump but before Orlith suicided, and her dragon would've inexplicably experienced her rider's presence again after she had died--and Moreta would've heard that future version Orlith rejoicing that her rider was alive again.

[Gidget2]

I'm of the opinion that it isn't fatal. If it was then Jaxom and Lessa (not to mention F'lar and F'nor) would clearly have been toast. Jaxom's reaction is perhaps the most severe, but it appears that the Jaxom who returns the egg isn't affected by the proximity of the correct time Jaxom. You'd think it would be reciprocal. Besides, he only feels dizzy and passes out.

Granted, we have no other evidence than short-term same-time timings (LOL). Perhaps it is more severe the longer the person shares the same time and space as their other timed self.