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Old May 15 2009, 08:10 PM   #1
Lady Maelin
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Default Inside Ruatha Hold...

While reading once again the *WHite Dragon*... Anne writes a brief discription of the inside of Ruatha Hold.
What do you think you would see on that main floor, coming into the hold from the Great Hold Doors...try to imagine you are there with the group that came to see Jaxom and Ruth's first flight together.
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Old May 15 2009, 08:34 PM   #2
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

Or the change made over the Turns? There is a good discription of its, creations (with typos) in creating it in CoP First Fall: The Ford of Red
PS I lol a bit at how my system is saying the hold.

Or DD and before Fort Hold was created or a few more I can think of.
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Old May 15 2009, 10:43 PM   #3
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

With the description of some sort of rafters (bracing?) in the overhead from which crawlers were dropping (in DF), it always struck me as not unlike a Bavarian beer hall.

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Old May 16 2009, 09:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

E.D. Lord I had forgotten the rafters.[roll eyes]

We know they have room for several rather long trestle tables, along with a huge fireplace. There was also at least two comfortalbe chairs cozily placed in front of the fire.

I can't help seeing a bit more clean, richer and a lot more civilized decor, in the furniture, floor coverings and or wall coverings...that would have been used during Jaxom and Lytol's time, than was present when Lessa lived there as a druge. I think it would have been restored to look more along the lines of when Lessa was a young girl, when her family held the Hold....before Fax.

Would they have had any thick durable rugs on the floor, or would it only have been rushes.

Would there have been other seating or tables?

Where would Lytol's office have been?

Would the Hold's furnishing have a more rich look, or simple and plain, mostly usefull look to them?

Would the walls be smooth and white washed? [I think in Red Star Rising, its mentioned that some of the hold rooms were]

After almost two thousand turns, I see most of the large holds looking more castle like inside...each generation adding their own improvements to the Hold
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Old May 17 2009, 10:55 AM   #5
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

I think the rafters are an Anne-achronism: if you've got a sound cavern (natural or carved) then you wouldn't NEED rafters/trusses, etc. And, if you're setting up a major hold you're going to make darn sure you've got a sound structure.

You might have large timber brackets put in place at high level in order to hang chandeliers of glows or heraldic banners.
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Old May 17 2009, 06:46 PM   #6
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

I can see them putting rafters up in all main rooms not because the support is needed *now*, but because over the Turns there can be tremors, earthquakes, and similar things that could crack formerly sound stone.

Also, you can hang things like glow pots and tapistries from rafters. Harder to drill into solid stone.

Of course, on the other hand, beams would be wooden, from trees. Which might make them confined to wealthier holds, if less wealthy holds think they could get away with being constructed without them.

(I actually sat around thinking about this when writing Harper Hall fanfic...and then I realized the Harper Hall is a freestanding building mostly anyway, so they'd have rafters certainly even if, say, Fort proper didn't.)
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Old May 17 2009, 07:27 PM   #7
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

Yes Harper Hall is constructed. Lady M's original query was about Ruatha which was excavated.
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Old May 17 2009, 07:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

Depending on the size and height of the original cavern, it's possible that they could have essentially built a building inside it, creating two or more levels out of one vast space. The framing up could have resulted in rafters overhead for the creepy-crawlies to creep and crawl among.
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Old May 18 2009, 12:43 AM   #9
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

Did it mention rafters, or just "ceiling"?
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Old May 18 2009, 11:16 AM   #10
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

I was thinking it would look like the Great Hall of a Medieval Castle,with rustic rafters overhead to hang banners from. A huge fireplace, some chairs, at least one tressel table with benches. Taspistries on the walls. Maybe some display of swords & shields? Wasn't the office in a small room off to the side just as you came in the door?
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Old May 18 2009, 01:31 PM   #11
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by P'ter View Post
Yes Harper Hall is constructed. Lady M's original query was about Ruatha which was excavated.
Yes, I know. But I thought about the same thing as relates to a cavern Hold before I realized that all that hard thinking I did wouldn't matter for the Harper Hall. But the conclusions I came to might help her.

In short--I think it's possible for Ruatha, or Fort, or any of them to have rafters as safety measures, or as an easier way to hang things, but wood is expensive so it wouldn't be wide-spread unless perhaps the hold in question was expanded or updated or fixed or worked on in some way during a long interval when wood was more abundant.
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Old May 18 2009, 04:29 PM   #12
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

Ah, but Ruatha was built at a time when they could still have used plastic in their construction. Those rafters don't necessarily have to be wood: in fact I remember somewhere in DDrums they mention mysteriously durable material that is not wood used to construct the Fort Sea Hold. Ruatha was built early in the First Pass when they hadn't even run out of stone cutter energy yet. It's a pretty good bet that they could still have had the equipment to extrude construction grade plastics.
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Old May 20 2009, 09:20 AM   #13
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

If the Ruathan rafters were plastic, than that material would be familiar and not referred to as a mysterious durable material when found in DragonDrums.
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Old May 22 2009, 02:00 AM   #14
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

IMO....I would think that any and all wood in a hold, rafters, door, banisters, mantle...etc.... would have been more or less decorative...and it would show the wealth of the hold to visitors, since wood on Pern was more difficult to obtain. It would also help to make it look more homey and warm...instead of just cold stone.
I think over the turns, the holder would have gone to great lengths to have at least their great halls look less like stone, with the additions of wood or paint [white wash] or the mentioned wall hangings and paintings.
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Old May 22 2009, 10:20 AM   #15
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

they would need the tapestries for acoustic purposes. Imagine the echoes during a feast with all that hardrock around (You could open a Pernese eating establishment and call it Hardrock Cafe!): and you'd never hear the words of a song.
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Old May 23 2009, 10:03 PM   #16
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

Quote:
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If the Ruathan rafters were plastic, than that material would be familiar and not referred to as a mysterious durable material when found in DragonDrums.
If the material the rafters were created out of have been commented about in the books at all we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. The only time the rafters even come up is in DF as far as I can recall, and in that book the context for Pern hadn't been established yet.

And just because it's familiar doesn't mean it isn't still mysterious. They were familiar with it in DDrums, had been living with it for a couple thousand years, they just didn't know what it was.
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Old May 24 2009, 05:23 PM   #17
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Post Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by proserpine View Post
If the material the rafters were created out of have been commented about in the books at all we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. The only time the rafters even come up is in DF as far as I can recall, and in that book the context for Pern hadn't been established yet.

And just because it's familiar doesn't mean it isn't still mysterious. They were familiar with it in DDrums, had been living with it for a couple thousand years, they just didn't know what it was.
Well they also tell about in 6 Pass books too!

They had some background in CoP too.
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Old Nov 17 2010, 09:09 PM   #18
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

a few things i remember about Ruatha

*the main doors are airlock doors from one of the colony ships (Red was thinkitng it was one of the shuttles, but the size described sounds more ship sized)

*the kitchen was moved during Jaxom's time, and has metal double doors

*after the plague in Moreta's time, Alessan was looking at the walls of the Great Hall, and thinking they needed whitewashing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Maelin View Post
E.D. Lord I had forgotten the rafters.[roll eyes]

We know they have room for several rather long trestle tables, along with a huge fireplace. There was also at least two comfortalbe chairs cozily placed in front of the fire.

I can't help seeing a bit more clean, richer and a lot more civilized decor, in the furniture, floor coverings and or wall coverings...that would have been used during Jaxom and Lytol's time, than was present when Lessa lived there as a druge. I think it would have been restored to look more along the lines of when Lessa was a young girl, when her family held the Hold....before Fax.

Would they have had any thick durable rugs on the floor, or would it only have been rushes.

Would there have been other seating or tables?

Where would Lytol's office have been?

Would the Hold's furnishing have a more rich look, or simple and plain, mostly usefull look to them?

Would the walls be smooth and white washed? [I think in Red Star Rising, its mentioned that some of the hold rooms were]

After almost two thousand turns, I see most of the large holds looking more castle like inside...each generation adding their own improvements to the Hold
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Old Nov 17 2010, 11:45 PM   #19
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

Actually I don't know why wood would be expensive or rare in the Ninth Pass. They'd just gone through a 400-year Interval, at the end of which very few people believed that Thread was coming back, so they allowed enormous forests to grow (to the shock of the Oldtimers). Lessa was used to wooden seats, and commented on the chilly stone seats she had to get used to when she went back to get the Oldtimers.

It was usual to let forests grow during the Intervals and then log them back to a defensible acreage just before the next Pass, the timber being stockpiled for use during the Pass.

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Old Nov 18 2010, 12:25 AM   #20
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

It's quite possible that under Fax, harvesting of wood was a restricted luxury. Meron of Nabol wouldn't even let his holders gather firewood - granted that was after the Pass started, but it's the same mindset.
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Old Nov 18 2010, 03:20 AM   #21
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

Aramina's father was a wood turner (or something to that effect) and made all types of items from wood like furniture so rafters would be a possibility.
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Old Nov 25 2010, 12:09 AM   #22
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

my daughter and i were looking through my old copy of the "DLGTP", and noticed some things that were out of kilter, some obvious, like the dragon sizes. but one thing she spotted was the drawing of the 'crawlers'. um, these are depected as gecko-like. but i clearly remember mention of crawlers and their webs, high in the rafters and corners of Ruatha's great hall, and doing bothersome things like falling off their webs into people's dinners. how much was AMC in touch with the artist who drew this book? or did she, like my husband did when he wrote his own book, forget to design things like this, and write them into the story, with a solid, growing infobase to refer to?

just an odditiy that my daughter pointed out, and which wound up as a discussion of Pern's teams bringing in Terran creatures, and trying to interleave them with indigenous animal....which usually doesnt work well.
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Old Nov 25 2010, 03:32 PM   #23
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by proserpine View Post
If the material the rafters were created out of have been commented about in the books at all we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. The only time the rafters even come up is in DF as far as I can recall, and in that book the context for Pern hadn't been established yet.

And just because it's familiar doesn't mean it isn't still mysterious. They were familiar with it in DDrums, had been living with it for a couple thousand years, they just didn't know what it was.
Does anyone know how long plastic can last (and remain usable) if protected from the elements? Over 2000 years seems a bit of a stretch. I've seen info about how long plastic bags can last in a landfill, but forgot the details.

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Old Nov 25 2010, 04:58 PM   #24
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

Lady D: the crawlers couldn't have been earth imports: on earth only arachnids are web spinners. If they're gekko-like then they're pernese.
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Old Nov 25 2010, 07:19 PM   #25
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

Quote:
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Lady D: the crawlers couldn't have been earth imports: on earth only arachnids are web spinners. If they're gekko-like then they're pernese.
I think are called crawlers, on webs, and they do bite. in Dragonflight,
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Old Nov 26 2010, 09:34 PM   #26
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

I think, with Lytol having been a Weaver for so many turns, tapestries and other fine fabric goods would be a major item, possibly featuring horses and scenery rather than dragons (not to remind him of his brown Larth). Maybe a few trophies from races won by Ruathan runnerbeasts.

And there was also that tapestry Lessa used to find her way back to the end of the Eighth Pass, which was returned to Ruatha.

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Old Nov 27 2010, 04:28 PM   #27
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Default Re: Inside Ruatha Hold...

The Atlas does give you a basic idea of the layout of Ruatha, especially in the times of Moreta and Lessa, but your right, it would be interesting to see exactly the internal appearance.
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