A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum  

Go Back   A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum > The Anne McCaffrey Collection > Dragonriders of Pern

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Jan 4 2014, 03:37 PM   #1
Multi-Facets
Insert Witty Title Here.
 
Multi-Facets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Colorado
Gender: F
Fan of: Girl Who Heard Dragons
Now Reading: Newflesh/Mira Grant.
Default Why aren't two greens rising a problem?

We keep hearing how bad it is for other golds to be around one who's rising. Why isn't the same fuss made over two greens rising at the same time? That's bound to have happened at some point, right?
__________________
Rest well, Mrs. McCaffrey. Long live your work!
Multi-Facets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 4 2014, 03:52 PM   #2
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: Why aren't two greens rising a problem?

They're not territorial.

Wild fairs of firelizards include greens, but they're all subordinate to their gold. The greens fly and clutch as well, but they don't hang around their clutches to protect them. The golds do, and they make use of their full fair to feed the hatchlings and to ward off predators. The need to have a sufficiently large fair is in the golds' favour: more lizards = larger area = more food = more surviving hatchlings...and the numbers protect against predation.

Greens take a different approach. They can either go off and lay and abandon a clutch and hope for the best, and because they exist in large numbers they can get away with it. They don't need to compete with each other, because the more abandoned green clutches there are in an area, the less likely their own is to be eaten. But they can't hang around to guard them because (a) they don't have a fair to help out, (b) it would give away the clutch location to any predators, and (c) their local gold would probably dig up and destroy the nest to give her own clutch less competition.

Golds need to fight to give their clutches the best chance. With limited resources, they need to ensure that their own clutch takes priority over that of any interlopers.

Greens benefit from obscurity. The best chance for a green-laid clutch is to hide it away and ignore it, in as safe an area as possible. The territory of a large fair following a single queen would be most ideal, I reckon, so greens benefit from joining a queen's fair.

And what evolved to work for fire lizards remains at an instinctual level in the dragons.
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 4 2014, 03:53 PM   #3
mawra
Dolphin Friend

Craftmaster
 
mawra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: CONCORD VA
Gender: F
Fan of: PERN
Now Reading: Dolphins of Pern and Queens ow
Default Re: Why aren't two greens rising a problem?

It maybe that the golds reproduce, the greens don't. So it does not matter to them. Not much is mention about the greens rising.
__________________
MEDDLE NOT IN THE AFAIRS OF DRAGONS, FOR YOU ARE CRUNCHY & GOOD WITH CHOCOLATE


SO MANY BOOKS SO LITTLE TIME


DRIVING SMART KEEPS YOU ALIVE
mawra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 4 2014, 10:49 PM   #4
GinnyStar
Dolphineer
Craftmaster
 
GinnyStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wausau, WI USA, Central Standard Time
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, other SF works
Now Reading: Dragonback Bargain
Green Re: Why aren't two greens rising a problem?

Outside of something about not using 'firestone' for a while so there isn't any flame in Benden Weyr dragon in Red Star Rise/Dragonseye
__________________
Lover s s, s and friends
Lover of and beads,
http://www.change.org/profiles/GinnyStar
Dragoncave GinnyStar2
Jellied Dragons
Lair of Dragons
http://dragcave.net/user/GinnyStar2
Thanks! Others: None at this time
WIP http://archiveofourown.org/works/252259
http://www.daisy.org/learning-difficulties
GinnyStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 5 2014, 01:03 AM   #5
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: Why aren't two greens rising a problem?

It's also much less intense - a short flight, the greens don't usually blood and don't seem to try all that hard to get away. They broadcast their emotions, but it's not nearly as powerful as a queen dragon. Because green flights happen so often there's less competition among the males, and little urgency about participating. It's just a more low-key sort of affair.
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 5 2014, 03:21 PM   #6
Multi-Facets
Insert Witty Title Here.
 
Multi-Facets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Colorado
Gender: F
Fan of: Girl Who Heard Dragons
Now Reading: Newflesh/Mira Grant.
Default Re: Why aren't two greens rising a problem?

Thanks, everyone. That makes sense.
__________________
Rest well, Mrs. McCaffrey. Long live your work!
Multi-Facets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 11 2014, 10:53 AM   #7
Cheryl
Master Archivist
 
Cheryl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland, USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern!
Now Reading: Paladin of Souls (Bujold)
Default Re: Why aren't two greens rising a problem?

Greens also have a lot more potential suitors which leads to less jealousy over who does choose to pursue. They can be pursued by any male in the Weyr, which is just about half the dragons in the Weyr (the other half being greens and a few golds). If two greens rise near the same time, there probably aren't notably fewer males following each; more males can rise to pursue as only a small percent of the total was rising in the first place.

Golds are only pursued by bronze and the occasional bold brown, and bronzes are only roughly 5% of the Weyr. Usually every bronze in a Weyr will pursue a gold, and in the rare instance of another gold rising, the bronzes would have to choose which to follow. No gold wants to lose half her suitors to a rival.
__________________
Visit one of the other sites of Cheryl's Anne McCaffrey Triad:
Sariel's Guide to Pern: a detailed guide to the series
The Many Works of Anne McCaffrey: largest fan site about Anne and ALL of her works
McCaffrey Quest: annual trivia contest.
Cheryl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 12 2014, 12:46 AM   #8
Multi-Facets
Insert Witty Title Here.
 
Multi-Facets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Colorado
Gender: F
Fan of: Girl Who Heard Dragons
Now Reading: Newflesh/Mira Grant.
Default Re: Why aren't two greens rising a problem?

Also well said.
__________________
Rest well, Mrs. McCaffrey. Long live your work!
Multi-Facets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 9 2014, 04:32 PM   #9
BronzeRider
Member
Glow
 
BronzeRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Nebraska
Gender: M
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern
Now Reading: Chronicles of Pern: First Fall
Default Re: Why aren't two greens rising a problem?

By the Fall of AL2500, greens were chewing firestone during the previous Interval, to flame during the Games. Chewing firestone prevented them from clutching, so the gold queens weren't threatened by competition for bronze mates or clutch space in the Hatching Grounds.

In Todd's "Sky Dragons", the only dragons available to mate in Sky Weyr to clutch was a single green who hadn't chewed firestone, and could lay a clutch. The green clutched a gold, some bronzes, browns, blues and greens. Other gold clutch dragonets were present, but years away from mating flights, so the only hope of Sky Weyr, trapped in the past, and Thread Fall due in only 3 Turns, the green was the only one who could clutch.

I've heard that the dragons clutched from a green are inferior, and perhaps this is so, but the developement of the green's clutch to maturity was not covered in "Sky Dragons" so I don't know...

Of course, I gather that not many members acknowledge Todd's books as canon as Anne's, but as I'm reading ALL DRoP books I can find right now, I'm inclined to take what the books have to offer and run with it.
BronzeRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 10 2014, 12:59 AM   #10
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: Why aren't two greens rising a problem?

I prefer the idea that green dragons were never going to be viable breeders to begin with. Most green fire lizard clutches are small and don't hatch anyway - those that do hatch are the smaller colors, and they needed bigger, viable dragons. We do know Kitti engineered golds to be unable to chew firestone, thinking to keep them out of the danger of Threadfighting (thwarted when the first goldriders promptly used flamethrowers), so the idea that chewing firestone would make a gold dragon sterile is obviously a myth - they can't process it in the first place. People just assumed the two things were connected.

(Obviously not a fan of Todd's books - I stopped after the second one.)
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 10 2014, 05:06 PM   #11
BronzeRider
Member
Glow
 
BronzeRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Nebraska
Gender: M
Fan of: Dragonriders of Pern
Now Reading: Chronicles of Pern: First Fall
Default Re: Why aren't two greens rising a problem?

Its been a few months since I read Dragondawn, but I too recall that Kitti designed the golds that way.

I like the idea that greens could clutch gold, bronze, brown, blue and green hatchlings, but in smaller numbers; just as long as they'd never chewed firestone. It must be one of those random things that you can never be completely sure about that I like, even in something as consistent as the dragon genetic engineering.

OT: I don't mind if Todd takes on a few things that weren't completely developed by Anne in his novels, but I did notice that there is a lot more violence in his books, and a lot of characters died in his books. All too often, I'd really start to like a character, and he'd quickly kill 'em off.
BronzeRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Aug 13 2014, 10:38 PM   #12
scendera
Junior Member
Loo Cow
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Talents
Default Re: Why aren't two greens rising a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BronzeRider View Post

I've heard that the dragons clutched from a green are inferior, and perhaps this is so, but the developement of the green's clutch to maturity was not covered in "Sky Dragons" so I don't know...
Even then, the overall impact of a green clutching a gold could be mitigated over several generations, by encouraging the bronzes from gold-bronze pairings to fly the "inferior" golds and minimizing the "lesser" bronzes getting to fly any golds, green or queen-clutched. Since it would be more likely to be size and stamina impacted, rather than outright defects bred into the lines, careful management would breed it back in after some time.
scendera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 27 2020, 09:40 PM   #13
Altair
Junior Member
Loo Cow
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Vermont
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern series
Now Reading: Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern
Default Re: Why aren't two greens rising a problem?

From my interpretation of the books, green dragons were infertile with or without firestone chewing. Otherwise in Interval, when they weren't chewing any or very little firestone for a couple hundred years, they'd be up to their eyeballs in dragons. So is Sky Dragon retconning that? This paradox to set beliefs already established in Anne's books is seriously frustrating.
Altair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 27 2020, 10:29 PM   #14
scendera
Junior Member
Loo Cow
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Talents
Default Re: Why aren't two greens rising a problem?

Genes mutate. The engineering was imperfect. The sterility was linked to chewing firestone in the final result and that's that. Rather than thinking of it as a retcon, just consider it a partial reversion of the genetic engineering back to the firelizards who chewed without issue.
scendera is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
I have a Problem Allen Café Archives 35 Oct 3 2010 06:49 PM
Publicist's Bookplate (??) in 1st Ed PB of Red Star Rising Samsara Book Collector's Meeting Room 19 Nov 15 2009 10:50 AM
Male Greens? WeyrSparrow Dragonriders of Pern 21 Nov 13 2009 02:48 PM
Math problem mawra Café Archives 41 May 16 2009 07:45 PM
Installation problem with vg Joe_754 Freedom 3 Nov 13 2005 05:37 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

ds and characters based on Anne McCaffrey’s fiction are copyright © Anne McCaffrey 1967-2008, all rights reserved, and used bA Meeting of Minds forum owned by Cheryl B. Miller.
All references to worly permission of the author.