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Old May 13 2005, 03:22 AM   #1
ghyle
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Thumbs up great balls of bullrushes!

We all have our own Pernese heros. Some drool over Jaxom, some wish they could play with Menolly (in whichever way they wish), and others desire a F'nor for their very own.

Is there one, though, who you would say would make a great culture-hero? That is, a hero so great that he or she shapes the very direction Pernese culture will take (or have taken), to be commemorated in song and memory for ages to come? Who would you say is one, and why?
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Old May 13 2005, 04:06 AM   #2
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

Robinton. In his quiet way he was a reformer (MHoP notwithstanding), who helped the general Pernese population realize how much knowledge it had lost down the ages.

Another would be Lessa, who brought the 5 Weyrs forward and saved Pern. She even helped deal with the consequences of her actions, the cultural chasm between Oldtimers and 9th Pass Pernese.
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Old May 14 2005, 01:23 AM   #3
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

There are 5 that came to mind immediately. In chronological order:

Admiral Benden - he just seems like the leader sort, the person that people would remember. Most of his heroics were in the Nathi War rather than Pern, but it's still in the Pern universe.

Kitti Ping - for creating the dragons that we all love, of course.

Moreta - she is one of the most realistic and heroic Pernese women written. She gave her life protecting Pern.

Lessa - although she has an attitude and is not exactly the *best* role-model, she WAS another savior of Pern, in a very dramatic Role. One that will always be remembered.

Robinton (most of all) - for being the most beloved person on Pern. Most everyone loved, or at least respected him. He kept the world together, gave inspiring speeches, and touched the hearts of the Pernese as well as our own. There is not a single other person written in Pern whose death affected me more.
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Old May 14 2005, 01:38 AM   #4
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghyle
Is there one, though, who you would say would make a great culture-hero? That is, a hero so great that he or she shapes the very direction Pernese culture will take (or have taken), to be commemorated in song and memory for ages to come? Who would you say is one, and why?
It's a tricky question if it carries the caveat of who would realistically be commemorated in song and memory. I think that eliminates Robinton whose truely wide influence was too subtle to be realized as such by the general population. That also eliminates Jaxom whose true role in the ending of thread is unlikely to ever be known (but otherwise he's the person whose had the greatest effect on Pernese culture, from the discovery of Landing to the ending of Thread).

Lessa will be, for her epic time travel, which has already been commemorated in a ballad. Moreta fits the bill already, though post-ninth pass it would be interesting to see whether her ballad is still sung or fades from popular memory.

None of the original colonists was so recognized, not even Kitti Ping who certainly should have been for the creation of Pern's saviour dragons. Though now that the 9th Pass people know of the original colonial history, it's possible that Kitti and/or others would be added to their cultural memory going forward in time.
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Old May 14 2005, 10:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

definately Robinton, Moreta, Lessa.
why not write a subtle song for Robinton? those who new him would get it, and others would juts think, "nice song"
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Old Jun 10 2005, 10:46 AM   #6
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

Is nobody suggesting F'lar for any particular reason? I mean, the Pernese for the most part (and we only get to see the very top of the cream of the elite of Pernese society in the books 99% of the time) are patrilineal and value masculine acheivements.

F'lar and Lessa are known across Pern for their fight, not only against the Oldtimers and hidebound attitudes, but also against Thread itself and even, it seems, against the society and reason that put them where they are to be able to fight so effectively.

I agree that The Ballad of Moreta's Ride will probably fade from use, or at least from anyone knowing that it is a true telling of an actual event.

I think that F'lar has more of a chance of being immortalised in song and probably now print than any other.
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Old Jun 13 2005, 05:22 AM   #7
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

For me it would have to be Moreta.
She was famous for something
other than flying thread
so she will be remembered
when thread is all but forgotten.
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Old Jul 14 2005, 04:43 PM   #8
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Post Re: great balls of bullrushes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidget2
Is nobody suggesting F'lar for any particular reason? I mean, the Pernese for the most part (and we only get to see the very top of the cream of the elite of Pernese society in the books 99% of the time) are patrilineal and value masculine acheivements.

F'lar and Lessa are known across Pern for their fight, not only against the Oldtimers and hidebound attitudes, but also against Thread itself and even, it seems, against the society and reason that put them where they are to be able to fight so effectively.

I agree that The Ballad of Moreta's Ride will probably fade from use, or at least from anyone knowing that it is a true telling of an actual event.

I think that F'lar has more of a chance of being immortalised in song and probably now print than any other.


I agree. I too think F'lar should have a song written about him,and F'nor too!
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Old Jul 14 2005, 06:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

yeah. it should be "the ballad of the half-brothers and the battle against thread, time, and strong women"

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Old Jul 14 2005, 10:45 PM   #10
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

I agree that F'lar ought to be considered a worthy hero. I was sort of miffed that the only song I remember about F'nor's courageous quest was more about Brekke than him!

I think it's fair to say that most of Anne's fans are females but even so I think those two men deserve more credit than they seem to get. F'lar was a man of vision and honor that even Lessa respected. It could even be argued that he was one of the factors that kept her from turning into another Thella or Kylara.

F'nor heroically risked his own life and even that of his dragon to keep the peace with the Lords Holder and, more to the point, to prevent his brother from trying the jump. I'd love an epic poem about either or both of those riders.
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Old Jun 13 2008, 01:20 AM   #11
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

I agree and Anne and many of her fans and/other you know who I saying. Like the CD MasterHarper of Pern (r)

thread "great balls of bullrushes!" by ghyle,
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Old Jun 13 2008, 07:36 PM   #12
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandi View Post
I agree that F'lar ought to be considered a worthy hero. I was sort of miffed that the only song I remember about F'nor's courageous quest was more about Brekke than him!

I think it's fair to say that most of Anne's fans are females but even so I think those two men deserve more credit than they seem to get. F'lar was a man of vision and honor that even Lessa respected. It could even be argued that he was one of the factors that kept her from turning into another Thella or Kylara.

F'nor heroically risked his own life and even that of his dragon to keep the peace with the Lords Holder and, more to the point, to prevent his brother from trying the jump. I'd love an epic poem about either or both of those riders.

I completely, totally agree. F'lar thought and saw the world differently, and showed the word that it's OK to do so, and so changed that world. I love how he often included the Lord Holders, Lessa, Master Craftspeople, and others in his decisions, instead of sitting by himself and deciding everything all on his own. He and Lessa truly led the Weyr and the planet as a team, and it was the Benden Weyrleaders, emphasis on the "s". Of course, when it came to strategic, immediate decisions when fighting Thread, he often decided autocratically, but thAt's because he had the experience and skills to do so. The situations are so different .

F'lar never gets full of himself, throwing his rank around, and having Mnementh flame everyone in sight or something. That might have something to do with Mnementh himself!! There is always just that essential humbleness to him, and I think that is so cool. He could take over the planet by force if he wanted to, but he's classier than that.

Anne's penchant for strong female main characters is one reason I chose to read her work in the first place, and I really appreciate visiting these worlds where women can actually get something done! As for Moreta, she gets the prize for "awesome-Weyrwoman-ness". She is just all-around cool, selfless, brave, and everything a heroine should be. However, as was previously pointed out, she already has a ballad.

And I have to get him in here, but F'nor just rocks! He deserves more credit than he gets, and he's another one who doesn't throw his rank around. He has a lesson to teach about pure, selfless altruism, and, personally, he inspires me.
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Old Jun 13 2008, 09:25 PM   #13
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Smile Re: great balls of bullrushes!

Interesting question.

I think more significant people will be remembered in the future than in the past--most of the reason Kitti Ping, Admiral Benden, etc. were forgotten was due to the general "dark ages" where information was not preserved over the ages. Only the great heroic deeds that got people into ballads (Moreta) survived. Now that Pern has re-discovered technology, and books, they will preserve more of their history going forward. (I say dark ages, because with our own history, the dark ages refer to a period in history where there is less of a written record left behind, or at least that's how I, the non-history-scholar, understand it, and that matches up pretty well with what happened to Pern.)

Going forward, Lessa will **definitely** be remembered. Even if Pern was still in the "dark ages", she would be remembered in the way that Moreta is, even if nobody else from the 9th pass was remembered. F'lar will definitely be remembered--he was/is the 'reigning' Weyrleader during the final Pass of Thread. Jaxom will probably be remembered as an oddball footnote in history--Fax's son, who was Lord of Ruatha, and had a white dragon. He won't be remembered for his actual deeds, because, as was already pointed out, they weren't commonly known. But he's enough of an oddball to be remembered for the quirky things about him like who his father was, and the fact that he's the only Lord with a dragon.

Robinton it's difficult to say; his presence was indeed more subtle. If he's remembered, it may be more in a MLK-like or Ghandi-like way. He'll probably have space in the history books. Although I'm unsure if anyone other than a scholar of Pernese History will really know much about him as the Turns go on, though...depends on how MLK/Ghandi-like he's considered by the Pernese. The books show an overwhelming love for him but...it's one of those cases where there's a bit more telling than showing going on. So I can see him as being a well-documented figure in the history books, but more and more forgotten by the general populace as time goes on, or, if he's more lucky, he will be more popularly remembered as MLK/Ghandi/etc. type of figures are in our times. Or perhaps...Abraham Lincoln? Abe Lincoln is probably a better comparison than MLK or Ghandi. He might end up being remembered like Abraham Lincoln.

I see Lytol being remembered as a historian's favorite due to his varying statuses as dragonrider/craftsman/regent to Jaxom, but not by the general population.

Fax will obviously be remembered as a great villain by everyone.

Menolly may be remembered as a great songwriter if her songs persistently stay popular. At this point, I don't think Sebell will be remembered at all. He'll be noted in the history books as the Master Harper after Robinton.
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Old Jun 15 2008, 09:59 PM   #14
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

I forgot about Manora- I didn't mean to. I think she will be remembered for her work behind-the-scenes. None of the awesome heroes would be so awesome without someone like her, and it's a shame that we don't get to see more about her and her special abilities. I'm a little surprised that Manora doesn't ride gold or green herself; she's got the personaLity for it. I wonder if she ever was presented as a Candidate? Manora's always there, she's got it goin' on, and she knows everything. To me, she is literally an unsung heroine!!

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Old Jun 16 2008, 10:32 PM   #15
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

The only problem with that is reality. At the age Manora could have Impressed, no one would believe a woman could Impress a green, and queen eggs were almost impossibly rare. And they still preferred to Search outside the Weyr. The odds were simply against her.
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Old Jun 16 2008, 10:49 PM   #16
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

Just because Manora is a great person, doesn't make her a good candidate. She may simply have lacked the proper telepathic tendancies that are needed in a rider.
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Old Jun 16 2008, 11:30 PM   #17
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White Re: great balls of bullrushes!

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Just because Manora is a great person, doesn't make her a good candidate. She may simply have lacked the proper telepathic tendancies that are needed in a rider.
Hi. She had the great ability to help run the suport system of Benden Wyer.
To be able to keep it running from bad time to good time and beond.

I like R. Wood picture of her in 'People of Pern'.
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Old Jun 16 2008, 11:40 PM   #18
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

I have seen f'lar refernced as hero material but without specific references. His should be a historical work noting his specific innovations. Weyrtiming as a tool for maintaining numbers, The management of an entire world to cease thread incursions, And the political upheaval he managed to use to consolidate Benden Weyr As the Preeminent Weyr on pern. What you have are a few heroic stories, the desperate plight of a single understaffed weyr readying itself to try to protect its planet, his part here is frequently overlooked by lessa's amazing leap but it in no way diminishes the innovations made, the amazing circumstances of his fight with T'ron, his demand that you follow benden or leave for southern and his extension of that initial consolidation to eventually be used to end the threat of thread, initially with the grubs and later with skills gained by aivas.
The stories as anne has written them are wonderful and i wouldnt change them, But i think they outline petty clearly a solid star hero figure. Even the Admirable Admiral Benden, Kitti Ping, Moreta, Lessa, Etc who have all contributed without doubt or contest have failed to have the same incredible impact on PERN AS A WORLD. F'lar's heroic doings have outstripped them and affected every pernese personally, because he has changed pern as a whole.
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Old Jun 17 2008, 11:37 PM   #19
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Portalvast Magus View Post
Interesting question.

Robinton it's difficult to say; his presence was indeed more subtle. If he's remembered, it may be more in a MLK-like or Ghandi-like way.
Well, but what exactly has Robinton done in the MLK/Ghandi vein? Has he substantially altered the civil rights status of a previously oppressed minority? Maybe, depending on which version of Pern history you go with, the implied history of violence and oppression against harpers as presented in Dragonflight, Dragonquest and the Harperhall trilogy, or the really rather noneventful and (seriously I hate this book) boring Masterharper of Pern history where the main oppression that occurs is Petiron is a bad father to little Robbie? If you take MHoP as the true history, then really Robinton, beloved by all as he is, didn't actually do much to improve the civil rights, social status or dignity of any oppressed minority. So he was a good musician and a pretty decent politician. They don't get remembered in the book of heroic deeds. Harpers never really lost status and dragonriders got their respect back on their own.

You could make an argument for Jaxom, though, since everyone really does know he discovered Landing, even if they don't know the rest.
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Old Jun 20 2008, 05:59 PM   #20
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Default Re: great balls of bullrushes!

In Dragonseye/Red Star Rising: Teglar Senior Queen was Wyer-bred from Fort and a of the bloodline of one of the First Riders. "Sometime a queen will choose a Wyer-bread woman depside what Traditonal shows" Sorry about the missing parts of that I don't have realy good memory sometime for this kind of work/fun/etc.
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