The canon-check thread

[D. M. Domini]

So, yeah. I strongly suspect I'm going to have recurring questions about this or canon bit about Pern due to the projects I'm working on, and also due to the fact that my books are quite a long ways away so I can't canon-check myself. So I figured, rather than cluttering up the forum with my questions in different threads, I'd stick them all here.

I hope that's ok?

Today's canon-check question is this--was the idea ever explored or touched on in the books that Robinton may have somehow been the cause of the AIVAS's "death"?

I know canon has Robinton very positively inclined towards AIVAS, so it's unlikely canon-wise that he *would* have had a hand in causing something like that in purpose, we-the-readers know that AIVAS shut himself down, but I don't remember if a minor character ever brought up the idea, only to have it shot down, or dis-proved by whatever evidence, or anything.

P. S. Cool, we have tags! ::tags this post::

[Cheryl]

Multiple threads aren't a problem, and perhaps are better if some questions are wildly unrelated. But on the whole I don't have an issue with it! Carry on!


As for Robinton... I think perhaps the Abominators have implied that Robinton was killed by Aivas while in the process of "killing" it. Skies of Pern is the mostly likely book to contain such details. I don't believe any of the non-Abominators ever thought it was possible/likely.

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by Portalvast Magus

So, yeah. I strongly suspect I'm going to have recurring questions about this or canon bit about Pern due to the projects I'm working on, and also due to the fact that my books are quite a long ways away so I can't canon-check myself. So I figured, rather than cluttering up the forum with my questions in different threads, I'd stick them all here.

I hope that's ok?

Today's canon-check question is this--was the idea ever explored or touched on in the books that Robinton may have somehow been the cause of the AIVAS's "death"?

I know canon has Robinton very positively inclined towards AIVAS, so it's unlikely canon-wise that he *would* have had a hand in causing something like that in purpose, we-the-readers know that AIVAS shut himself down, but I don't remember if a minor character ever brought up the idea, only to have it shot down, or dis-proved by whatever evidence, or anything.

P. S. Cool, we have tags! ::tags this post::

The Abominators have a discussion in SoP where both the idea that AIVAS terminated Robinton and/or Robinton terminated AIVAS were bruited about. Both were complete hogwash, of course.

The implication is that AIVAS terminated commiserate with a preceding, overriding objective courtesy of the leaders of the original colonists (Bendon, Boll, and the three ship Captains), that may have specified terminating once the Pernese had achieved adequate technical know-how to maintain the settlement of the planet per the original intentions of the colonists. Said termination was subordinated to terminated the threat of Thread, but once that was accomplished and AIVAS' database was available and accessible, AIVAS terminated higher functions. It should be noted that upon the discovery of AIVAS, the machine finds no one qualified to give it orders or modify its programming. AIVAS behaves autonomously and take the initiative, which would be expected of an AI, and makes a "judgment call" in granting some degree of privileges to its discoverers and those they designate. However, that authority never extends to modifying AIVAS' programming or directives. So, effectively, AIVAS makes its own call to interact with the colonists and grant them some authority--but only against the background of its previous and overriding objectives.

(It's one of those "you don't ever think about it" points with regard to Pern, that the leaders of the original colony, and the colonists, condemned their children and their descendants to an existence of their choice...without any regard whatsoever for the potential desires or ambitions of those descendants. An interesting ethical dilemma, that, and it could rear its head now that the threat of Thread is passing and the Pernese are once again aware of their place in the universe.)

[D. M. Domini]

Great! Thanks for the replies! Pretty much confirmed my thoughts.

Originally Posted by ElectricDragon

(It's one of those "you don't ever think about it" points with regard to Pern, that the leaders of the original colony, and the colonists, condemned their children and their descendants to an existence of their choice...without any regard whatsoever for the potential desires or ambitions of those descendants. An interesting ethical dilemma, that, and it could rear its head now that the threat of Thread is passing and the Pernese are once again aware of their place in the universe.)

Yes indeed, I've been thinking along those lines as well. Along with the fact that none of the Halls have really had schisms (that I can recall) except when a new Craft is discovered/founded. I'm also wondering how fast teaching is going to fall out of the Harper's list of duties now that a college has been founded and paper/printing presses have been rediscovered. Why be forced to learn how to sing when you can just look it up in a friggin' book?

On another note...so to speak...now I have this really cheesy mental image of 50s commercials with housewives singing teaching songs ever-so-fakely-cheerfully. I think that mode of Harpering is going to be considered pretty damn quaint in a couple of Pernese decades!

[Anareth]

Originally Posted by Portalvast Magus

Gre. I'm also wondering how fast teaching is going to fall out of the Harper's list of duties now that a college has been founded and paper/printing presses have been rediscovered. Why be forced to learn how to sing when you can just look it up in a friggin' book?

Or how fast the role of what a Harper is is going to change. If they maintain their role as teachers, musical ability may start to slip in importance, as it's not a skill that automatically correlates with being a great instructor.

And I wouldn't say no one's really considered the idea before that the auto-shutdown, "Okay, you know enough, that's all!" thing is unfairly placing expectations of long-dead colonists on the current generation of Pernese. It's definitely come up around here before, and I would say if you were looking at it expecting the Pernese to react in a normal human fashion, they would find ways around "Our ancestors thought we shouldn't study/know/use this, so we won't!" Humans simply don't respond well to being told "You can't know this, for your own good." Of course, if the reaction of the Pernese were more typical of humanity as we know it, there wouldn't have been such black and white, accept or reject response to AIVAS, either.

But then Anne was not writing a deep serious nuanced science fiction novel about the psychology of regressed societies and their response to a sudden introduction of advanced technology. She was writing a book about people in a quasi-feudal society who have nifty telepathic dragons and are trying to get rid of a mindless deadly rain of death. (And frankly I'd rather read the latter than the former most days. When I want depth, I do what I'm doing now and read nonfiction.)

[ElectricDragon]

Originally Posted by Anareth

And I wouldn't say no one's really considered the idea before

I was speaking hyperbolically, not literally. When you sit down to read these books and enjoy them you don't necessarily consider all the nuances and glitches. Ergo "...no one thinks about..." Later, when you're playing with the 'verse is when you start to ask the awkward questions.

[Emeraldrose]

Wasn't the Harper Hall being changed by Sebell and Menolly after Robinton's death back into a Teacher's College from the first Fall days? I seem to recall a comment about the elimination of music from Harper's Hall ....(Skies of Pern maybe)

[Multi-Facets]

I just had a thought: If the Abominators hated change so much, why not migrate to one of the more isolated, lesser holds, where change would come more slowly?

[Cheryl]

Ah, but the Abominators don't just hate change for their own sakes, they don't want anyone to experience it!

[Multi-Facets]

Good point. The Abominators also forgot a few cannot say what is best for many with the consent of the many. Or perhaps they were so frightened, angry, and foolish, they chose to forget?

[proserpine]

Originally Posted by Emeraldrose

Wasn't the Harper Hall being changed by Sebell and Menolly after Robinton's death back into a Teacher's College from the first Fall days? I seem to recall a comment about the elimination of music from Harper's Hall ....(Skies of Pern maybe)

I cannot help but feel that Menolly, at the very least, would never condone the total elimination of music from the Harper Hall. The emphasis may shift to teaching without music, but it is still necessary to teach music, and music could easily be a central curriculum all of itself. But I couldn't see them taking it out of the Harper Hall.

What I wonder is, notwithstanding their attempts to keep their newly introduced tech level, how long will it be before the Pernese once again must live without computers and other high tech stuff, even if they can maintain some of the other advances Aivas brought them? Or will the Pernese go against the charter that brought them there and try to go totally high tech?

[D. M. Domini]

Canon-check question - how old is Fandarel in regards to Robinton and F'lar? Is he a contemporary of Robinton, of F'lar, or is he somewhere in between? I always thought he was of a similar age to Robinton...but I want to verify that...

Yes. I'm ficcing.

[D. M. Domini]

One more question - which Hold was the one that the DLG claimed had its own secondary "Harper Hall" built in it?

[Cheryl]

I thought it was one of the "I" holds and indeed it is: The DLG says that a larger harper hall was built at Ista Hold by one of it's former Lords who married a journeywoman harper.


As for Fanderal, I think of him as contemporary to Robinton, though I have no specific evidence for this. Reasoning for it is that he's well-established and respected as the Master Smith at the open of Dragonquest, and I don't think a younger man would have managed to rise to that position and command that much respect as an elder of F'lar would. He could be younger than Robinton, but much closer to Robinton than to F'lar in age, to my mind.

[D. M. Domini]

Many thanks!

Here's another one...small Holds are beholden to the major Holds. Traditionally the small Holds are given a measure of independence to act as they wish, but technically if the Lord Holder wanted to do something with one of them, he could, correct? No matter how the smaller Holder felt? I'm assuming this based on Fax's ability to acquire several holds and terrorize their people. If several minor Holders in a given could have banded together and had some legal standing to buck him out, I bet it would have happened. (Unless they could but Fax had them all killed too?)

We know that the Harper Hall was once a part of Fort, for the people that didn't find it comfortable (at least, according to the DLG? Or DDawn? I can't recall which one.) living in caves in a cliffside. Eventually it became a college, and then the Harper Hall. So, teachers first, then musicians, and then somewhere down the road Harpers also turned into legal whatevers? Am I wrong?

I'm speculating that somewhere along the line the Harper Hall had a sort of...emancipation...from Fort Hold, where it ruled itself, if only so that other major holds couldn't claim that the legal whatevers that the Harpers provided was biased due to the way it was beholden to Fort.

There's not really *anything* to support this--we're never really shown in exactly what ways the Hall is dependent on Fort, and what ways it is not. It has a few cot holds...does it have a few fields, where farmers plant and harvest food? Does it get food from Fort's stores? Does it buy food from Fort, using marks the Hall gets for selling instruments? Robinton is equal to Groghe in rank, and I'm having a hard time seeing the Harper Hall depending on Fort's generosity for food. I'm thinking the Hall *must* be independent in a way a small Hold is not, if only because of a Harper's legal standing, because a Hall depending on Fort for food would be easily swayed in legal opinions if the Lord of Fort so desired.

Any thoughts?

[kevia]

I know that we are told somewhere that the craft halls are all independent of the holds. In "Nerilka's Story" the Healer's Hall and the Harper's hall withdrew from Fort Hold as a protest against Lord Tolocamps refusal to share medicines. In my paperback version it is pages 75-76. Tolocamp was quite surprised as he had forgotten that the craft halls had that right. I believe all the craft halls are self supporting, although, I am sure they buy food stuffs, etc, from the hold, or from wherever they can.

In the opening pages of "Renegades" small holder Felleck is kicked out of his hold by Lord Gedenase of Lemos Hold for not paying his tithes. The small holds are part of the larger hold and appear to hold their lands only as allowed by the Lord Holder. So I would say that, yes, a Lord Holder can do whatever he wants with the smaller holds.

[GinnyStar]

Originally Posted by kevia

I know that we are told somewhere that the craft halls are all independent of the holds. In "Nerilka's Story" the Healer's Hall and the Harper's hall withdrew from Fort Hold as a protest against Lord Tolocamps refusal to share medicines. In my paperback version it is pages 75-76. Tolocamp was quite surprised as he had forgotten that the craft halls had that right. I believe all the craft halls are self supporting, although, I am sure they buy food stuffs, etc, from the hold, or from wherever they can.

<sinp.Also after Fax did his thing in Dragonflight and MasterHarper of Pern all but the Healer Hall pull out, leaving the hall staff by what High Reaches born staff. the MasterMinner moved to the Smithcrafthall in Tegar. The MasterFisher would not help build new ship to replace the one the storms took.<sinp>

In the opening pages of "Renegades" small holder Felleck is kicked out of his hold by Lord Gedenase of Lemos Hold for not paying his tithes. The small holds are part of the larger hold and appear to hold their lands only as allowed by the Lord Holder. So I would say that, yes, a Lord Holder can do whatever he wants with the smaller holds.

<Sinp> Felleck was helped by his Lord Holder Staff, but his cothold did do it part in return, the tithe part <sinp>

Sorry about cuting up your quote but its they only way I can post my one hand it not typing good.
I just was looking for new post and found this one. I just add one to your note on what I recall from reading, by the way my paperback is worn out from re-reading so many time

[GinnyStar]

Originally Posted by D. M. Domini

One more question - which Hold was the one that the DLG claimed had its own secondary "Harper Hall" built in it?

Ista, and something about hold Turnover in it that is when is full, most of the time is just a few people in it.

[Shalyn]

I always thought that the Crafthalls were sort of tithed to, similar to the Weyrs. After all, the Crafthalls hold a commodity that Pern needs. Maybe a formal barter system is set up - for the right to have Harpers in the Holds, each Hold sends foodstuffs to the Halls.

Or something.

Actually, commerce in itself is a pretty fuzzy area on Pern.

[Blue Rider 16]

Crafthalls might also be given the raw materials to produce what need to, or even trade among themselves i.e. Harpers need wood, and skins to make instruments, Smiths need metals, and ores to make tools, every craft needs food, etc.

[Cheryl]

The DLG mentions the close relationship of Smithcraft and Minecraft. The minecraft will give raw materials to the smiths in return for the tools they need to mine.

[Brenda]

Right, and in my fanfic Cotholder Grandon sends fleeces from his flock of woolbeasts to the Weavercrafthall, receiving a share of cloth in return, and probably some marks as he would not be needing that much cloth.

[GinnyStar]

There is something in there about contract that can be between the Hold/Craft for staffing, Marks, the use of a runnerbeast, a good set of rooms, also the crafter could work it out. It would depend on what the Hold needs are and number of people. How much to pay per contract. Also if the holder was not being nice they could leave. It holder was very bad the other crafts may put out boycotting that hold. Mastercafterman/womam has = with the Lord Holder = with the Wyerleader.

[Brenda]

There is something in there about contract

There is something where about (a) contract?

[Blue Rider 16]

I think it was in the DLG, referenced a couple posts back.

[kevia]

In Dragoneye the artist (can't remember his name) had a contract with Chalkin for the paintings he was doing for him that spelled out how much he was to get for his work. Of course, Chalkin did his best to cheat him on it, but the point is that it was considered the standard proceedure for that kind of work. I would assume there would be other crafts that were handled the same way.

[Blue Rider 16]

The artist's name was Iantine. And, yes it did seem quite standard, and very good treatment of a journeyman or journeywoman was definitely expected.

[GinnyStar]

Originally Posted by Blue Rider 16

I think it was in the DLG, referenced a couple posts back.

http://forums.srellim.org/showpost.p...7&postcount=23It this the post you asking about, if you are yes, that where my information comes from.