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Old Jul 26 2011, 05:19 PM   #81
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You had me at "night-flying, thread drowning watchwhers"...
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Old Jul 26 2011, 08:13 PM   #82
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I am agreeing with Anareth in that the difference between Todd's Thrid Pass books and the rest of the DRoP series are getting so pronounced and numoerous that I am tempted to see them as a totally seperate series rather than fitting in the timeline and continuity of the original series.

So am I, he has some good idea, but they are how I put worst than reef rock full of hole, about the image in Skies of Pern, the Ista's Weyrleader's comment.
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Old Jul 27 2011, 01:30 AM   #83
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I find I can't..or don't care about any of the characters.
I buy them and read them for research mainly at this point. But not enjoyment.
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Old Jul 27 2011, 12:39 PM   #84
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That's just it, Kat, I cannot like these people or be interested in them, so I don't really care if they suffer. The ones killed off are around pretty much just to be killed off, so I can't care. If I don't care, there's no reason to read.
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Old Jul 28 2011, 11:54 AM   #85
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For us there is, Anareth, as KAt remarked: research.
Turn it any which way you want, it's canon... and we have to live with it.

Althought I must admit I don't feel the urge to "pick these books apart" and go over them witha fine tooth comb like we did with Anne's during the fun years
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Old Jul 28 2011, 01:40 PM   #86
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If I were to write fic/RP again, I'd just ignore them as un-canon. Just far too much work to make everything fit logically.
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Old Jul 29 2011, 12:05 AM   #87
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I don't know how she would be able to do that. Just bringing them up to a ridable size would be enough of a challenge, especially for the first clutch. She would probably have assumed that they would gradually get bigger, but according to All the Weyrs of Pern, Ramoth and Mnementh were 3 time the size (height?) of the first clutch, and that was a much bigger increase than expected.

When you think of the range in the size of modern horses, from the tiny Shetland pony to the various breeds of draft-horse, simply due to inbreeding of local varieties (not to mention dogs), I think the tendency for the biggest bronze to win the mating flight is a reasonable explanation. Admittedly Wind Blossom seemed to think there was more to be done, so there may have been some actual plan to increase their size, once they had proved the success of that first clutch.
What I meant is, I could see Kit Ping specifying that dragons should be x metres from nose to tail-tip, rather than x centimetres (like the fire-lizards), but I don't see how you would tell DNA that they should continue to grow bigger and bigger until they reach a certain size.

There was this sudden one-time increase in size, and then (as I conceive it) 2500 turns of gradual increase in size due to the golds' normally being flown by the biggest, strongest bronze dragons. The Oldtimer dragons were smaller because they skipped 400 turns of evolution.

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Old Jul 29 2011, 01:59 AM   #88
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I find I can't..or don't care about any of the characters.
I buy them and read them for research mainly at this point. But not enjoyment.
I'd go a step further and say I hate the main characters. They just annoy the hell out of me.
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Old Jul 29 2011, 06:37 AM   #89
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you are forgetting de "Eridani training" what ever that may be. Sience is very much ahead from our time in Dragon's dawn. When you are writhing SF or fantasy you cán create your own science The sky is not the limit
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Old Jul 29 2011, 11:24 AM   #90
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I think the Benden dragons are supposed to be freaks beyond what Kitti had in mind, which makes sense as they're the result of a genetic bottleneck and NOT a great idea (you would never want a carnivore that size if you could avoid it, not from danger, just from the sheer amount of food you'd need.)

And even wtih super advanced alient technology, it just isn't reasonable to think you can program THAT specifically. DNA by its nature is somewhat unstable, degrades easily, and random mutations WILL occur, it just happens when you have sexual reproduction. It's not reasonable to think you could still be going according to program thousands of generations later.
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Old Jul 29 2011, 11:50 AM   #91
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you are forgetting de "Eridani training" what ever that may be. Sience is very much ahead from our time in Dragon's dawn. When you are writhing SF or fantasy you cán create your own science The sky is not the limit
While science may be more advanced, genetics are still genetics, and those won't change. We might understand them better, but there are still limits to how the genes function. The gene that says how big something is going to get isn't also going to have a programmed optimum development range. It just says 'here's how big you can be, if you get all the nutrients and whatnot that you need'. There would have to be an entirely separate gene, or genes, which restricted the expression of the size parameters for a period of time.

More likely, there is an optimum size programmed, but there are also other restrictions (which may or may not involve special genes, and could just be standard reproduction traits) which keep dragon eggs from being too big for the dam to birth, so a dragonet can only be X% bigger than its dam when it reaches full growth. It would take many generations before those restrictions would no longer reduce the size of dragons compared to their genetic optimum.
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Old Aug 1 2011, 11:30 AM   #92
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why not? It's a different universe. Pern dna (pna) IS different And it is fantasy. It doesn't always HAVE to match with earthly knowledge.
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Old Aug 1 2011, 04:28 PM   #93
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why not? It's a different universe. Pern dna (pna) IS different And it is fantasy. It doesn't always HAVE to match with earthly knowledge.
Because physics doesn't change THAT much, even in fiction!

It's not written as a different universe - the settlers come from our Earth.

PNA still uses the same basic chemicals as DNA... [though both McCaffreys should be doused in cold water for suggesting and continuing with a triple helix structure - hydrogen bonds just don't work like that.]

And it's SF, not fantasy, at least as far as every interview with Anne I've ever read goes.

Final point. If you're going to bring science into fiction, there's nothing to lose and everything to gain by only breaking the physical laws that NEED to be broken for the sake of the plot. Anything else is just shoddily researched worldbuilding.
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Old Aug 2 2011, 10:16 AM   #94
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The Library of Congress classifies Pern novels as science fiction, as well. So yes, SF, not fantasy.
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Old Aug 2 2011, 12:46 PM   #95
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Though let us acknowledge, it is extremely light and fluffy SF at best.

But it's an issue of internal consistency. If you're going to tweak the laws of nature (which most good sf/f has to do) don't use it as a magic get-out-of-plotting-free card. Ie, you can't wave away every internal inconsistancy about dragon size, behavior, etc. with "Kitti Ping did it!" no matter what "it" is. In the case of dragons and size, we already know the Benden dragons (the ones who took the slow path to the Ninth Pass, rather than the ones bred from Oldtimer dragons who skipped four hundred years of evolultion) have exceeded Kitti's target size dramatically. AIVAS flat-out said it.
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Old Aug 2 2011, 01:20 PM   #96
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The Library of Congress classifies Pern novels as science fiction, as well. So yes, SF, not fantasy.
OKE my mistake NO fantasy but Fiction! I stil stand my ground If other SF writers can get away with talking and on there hindlegs walking crocodiles, why can't we just read and accept the the Pern book "science" (btw fiction is also a form of fantasy isn't it?)
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Old Aug 2 2011, 10:31 PM   #97
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Because it's internally inconsistent. And Todd at least is attempting to overexplain something that really can't stand up to scrutiny on that level.
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Old Aug 3 2011, 01:29 PM   #98
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I agree.
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When you are writhing SF or fantasy you cán create your own science...
As Anareth said, it has to be internally consistent. You can "create your own science", but once you have established that foundation, you have to stay within the limits you have set for yourself.
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Old Aug 3 2011, 03:06 PM   #99
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OKE my mistake NO fantasy but Fiction! I stil stand my ground If other SF writers can get away with talking and on there hindlegs walking crocodiles, why can't we just read and accept the the Pern book "science" (btw fiction is also a form of fantasy isn't it?)
Actually, no. Fantasy is imagination, unrestricted by reality; fiction is simply not truth. Fiction has a sound basis in reality, but takes liberties with events. Science fiction specifically takes liberties with the function and application of science and redefines several scientific laws to accomodate the story, and must be logical in the context of the world. Fantasy has no such restrictions - it can be anything that is completely and totally impossible, without reason.

In short, all fantasy is fiction. Not all fiction is fantasy.
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Old Aug 3 2011, 06:06 PM   #100
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well with earthly sience starting to unravel dna from several plants and making them resistant to various diseases who knows what will happen in a hundred years or so (if we are still around by then)
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Old Aug 3 2011, 07:24 PM   #101
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Even in fantasy, an author follows rules they have established. That is part of good writing - that the worldbuilding is extensive, and that once the Way Things Work in that world has been established, they will continue to Work That Way.

Completely ignoring what has already been established as far as how things work in a given "world" is a major sign of poor writing.
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Old Aug 3 2011, 09:57 PM   #102
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Actually, much as they hate to admit it, SF is a subgenre of fantasy. (Though they don't hate admitting it as much as "magical realists" do.) It's just fantasy from the science department. A few SF authors stay more or less grounded (ie what they write is theoretically possible), a VERY few wrote ahead of the science curve (Clarke), most are writing magic dressed up in science and not the other way around. (Star Trek, Pern, the most honest about it is probably Star Wars. They get in the least amount of trouble when it sounds superficially plausible and you don't try to explain too much--as one Trek writer said when asked how the Heisenberg Compensators work, "They work quite well, thank you." The minute you drag telepathy and TK and other thoroughly fantastic elements in, you're at best into space opera territory.)

But ALL fiction that's well-written is internally consistent, with allowances for not quite having the world worked out in the first story or two. You do not, in fact, just make it up as you go along. And if you KNOW something is a bit fuzzy or you don't really know how to fudge it so it sounds like it might have some sort of scientific validity, you don't try to BS it.
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Old Aug 4 2011, 07:25 AM   #103
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Fantasy from the science dept., I like that

Besides, I agree with Mara on no rules for fantasy. There's lots of writers who change the rules while extending their world because in fantasy you can. You just come up with a higher truth, a more powerful wizard or whatever.

And Semantre, while you are correct, I see what you wrote as nitpicking. I understood what Mara meant...
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Old Aug 4 2011, 10:27 AM   #104
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There aren't many GOOD writers who just start randomly rewriting their own rules. Not only on the science (which, again, is VERY fuzzy to begin with as far as Pern goes--elements don't do what we know they do in the real world, telepathy and telekinesis are fantasy abilities) but on how a deeply-established world works. If you've never said ANYTHING about something, as long as it doesn't contradict what's already there, that's one thing--but with something like the whers, or timing, it's already been pretty established what 'works' and what doesn't. With most of Todd's stuff it's even worse as he's writing between times we've already seen--it doesn't logically grow out of what comes before chronologically and what comes after doesn't track at all with what he has happening.

"Fantasy" only means "I can write whatever I want however I want and change the rules whenever I feel like it" for ten-year-olds and their first story and for hack writers.
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Old Aug 4 2011, 01:51 PM   #105
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You are there Anareth. Writing et al is for authors who want and can make money by it and if that means changing the rules...

But everyone is entiled to its own biased opinion. Personally mine are not so high flown because I know I can not write well enough to be published (without any extra help, like having a father who is a publisher or having more than enough money).

Ah well, the final point (for me at least) is that where Anne is concerned I like virtually all her books, faults an all. Besides, didn't we hear all this before? Oh, that must mean there are still new fans and that more than enough peeps buy Todd's books so DelRey keeps publishing them
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Old Aug 4 2011, 05:24 PM   #106
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Not for long, I'll wager...Look at people on HERE who bought anything Anne did who've already dropped off. Plus offline--I doubt my mother (who has pretty much everything Anne's written as far as most series go) even knows Todd has a new book out, and definitely hasn't bought it. Just like she quit buying the Dune books when KJA started writing them with Brian Herbert. (Though much as it pains me KJA would probably do a better job than Todd. He's trite, but he can crank them out.)
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Old Aug 5 2011, 01:47 PM   #107
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HELP I am getting out of here. English lessons are too long ago to let my explain exactly what I mean. Thanks Hans for the support. See you all in another thread. By by
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Old Aug 8 2011, 02:33 AM   #108
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Not for long, I'll wager...Look at people on HERE who bought anything Anne did who've already dropped off.
Not me! I've been on hiatus, but I'm back now! And I'm still buying everything anne did... welll Pern actually, but you get my drift!
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Old Aug 11 2011, 05:26 AM   #109
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That's the funny thing, Anareth, I think the opposite. I see a lot of peeps buying Todd's stuff despite all their objections

Not everybody, true. But more than enough to keep DelRey happy (obviously).
Plus, there seems to be a whole group of new! readers who start with Todd...
and are disappointed, when they are going to look for Anne books, they find so few of them on the shelves
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Old Aug 11 2011, 12:43 PM   #110
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I got DK and DB from the library when they first came out. I haven't read any of Todd's books since then, and I haven't bought any of them. And I don't intend to.
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Old Aug 11 2011, 03:45 PM   #111
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I guess what it boils down to is that the people who want there to be more Pern, no matter what it looks like, will (apparently) buy his books. Those who are content with what Anne wrote probably won't. I know I won't. It really doesn't matter what any individual thinks, because as Hans says, as long as the sales are made, more will be written.
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Old Aug 16 2014, 02:37 AM   #112
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It was much less of a secret that greens were rendered infertile by chewing firestone. Recall F'lar and Lessa had this very conversation while considering how to get ready for Thread. It is nearly certain that greens can only hatch greens and maybe blues, that greens are terrible brooders, and would likely have few surviving offspring, so F'lar and Lessa chose not to even try. The reasons for that made sense to them and to AIM at the time it was written.

I would argue that the ability for greens to clutch was altered in a minor way by Kitti to allow flexibility for times when more dragons of any color were needed quickly.
F'lar and Lessa may have still made the saner choice. If they did allow one of Ramoth's earliest green daughters to breed, the resulting smaller, weaker hatchlings would have taken from the pool of suitable riders. If something had gone wrong, that would be a potentially good rider destroyed instead of saved for the next gold clutch.

*We* know that with the support of a weyr, it's actually pretty likely a green clutch would do just fine, even if the resulting dragons were smaller. The greens in Todd's book never had a chance because of the rough conditions.
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Old Aug 16 2014, 03:36 PM   #113
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F'lar and Lessa may have still made the saner choice. If they did allow one of Ramoth's earliest green daughters to breed, the resulting smaller, weaker hatchlings would have taken from the pool of suitable riders. If something had gone wrong, that would be a potentially good rider destroyed instead of saved for the next gold clutch.

*We* know that with the support of a weyr, it's actually pretty likely a green clutch would do just fine, even if the resulting dragons were smaller. The greens in Todd's book never had a chance because of the rough conditions.
That would have been one of Pridith's sisters who went South with T'bor to mature a few years. If they had trouble finding firestone for training (if they had to mine it locally), they might have got a late start on that phase of the clutch's training, and one of the greens rose to mate while she was still fertile. (They'd have had to send back to Benden for a few extra candidates.) But firestone should have been part of the supplies they took with them, so you'd have to provide a reason for there not being any, like an earthquake swallowing up the cave where they stored it.

That whole period could make a good fan-fic. Has anybody done one?

BTW any smaller, weaker dragons that are clutched at any time could be reserved for carrying messages.
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Old Aug 16 2014, 05:49 PM   #114
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Good point. Dedicated messengers or a supply wing would free up able weyrlings a little sooner, when they got to the point of being good enough to be in the wings but still needed as assists.

Would a 9th Pass green clutch actually have to sit it out, tho? From the POV of the reader, we know any healthy but small dragons clutched would still have been considerably larger and stronger than even bronzes and queens of the First Pass, and quite possibly later ones.

Would F'lar have refused a dragon sized as if from Fiona's time? Moreta's? I suspect not....but this is the luxury of speculation as the reader, who isn't risking the minds of good men to potentially flawed eggs.
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