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Old Jan 13 2008, 01:18 AM   #1
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Default Weyr capacities

As usual, there are various sources and numbers given. Some ascribe 300 each for 1800 dragons; others ascribe 500 each for 3000 dragons. Still others ascribe 330 each for 1980 dragons. One source (which I can't find at the moment) gave the following:

Fort: 500
Benden: 600
High Reaches: 500
Ista: 350
Igen: 300
Telgar: 400

I personally like this one because it's not pat and perfect. It's sloppy and realistic and gives a total of 2650 dragons.

If you were to accept the numbers I give, to what would you ascribe the differences in capacity?

And what numbers do you actually ascribe to and why?
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Old Jan 13 2008, 01:51 AM   #2
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

I would agree with the 1st 3 because they're larger weyrs (Fort and Benden being the 1st to be built), the other 3 were built on a slightly smaller scale as they had to be hewn out by hand as opposed to using stone-cutters.
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Old Jan 13 2008, 04:24 AM   #3
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

ED, if you mention there are various sources and numbers it would be great and interesting if you also gave them, the sources as well as the numbers.
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Old Jan 13 2008, 02:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

The size ofc the weyrs, definitely. And given the territory Igen and Ista in particular cover, with all the water around Ista, they really wouldn't need as many dragons. At least that's what I think.
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Old Jan 13 2008, 10:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans View Post
ED, if you mention there are various sources and numbers it would be great and interesting if you also gave them, the sources as well as the numbers.
Primarily the books themselves, the Atlas, the DLG, the Mayfair game's addenda and a smattering of websites. Unfortunately, I really haven't the time to run them all down and my interest isn't in debating the sources, it's in the numbers and peoples' perception of them. When I've got a source handy and I've just read it, I'll try to say where I got it. Sadly, I can't find the source I got this array of numbers from, so I'm thinking it was internet based.
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Old Jan 14 2008, 04:16 PM   #6
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Probably Hartley Patterson's "lost" pages then.

Discussions hold a lot less value to me if the sources are not known, sorry. And if I would be using anything I learn on this board for the Pern Encyclopedia knowing the source is imperative.
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Old Jan 14 2008, 04:29 PM   #7
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Those figures look like the ones from the old Pern Demographics site... I may have them saved some where (for reference of course).

Although, I think they are off. Telgar Weyr had close to 600 dragons before the Second Pass began (ref Red Star Rising/Dragonseye).
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Old Jan 14 2008, 06:13 PM   #8
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

I don't know where those figures originated, but they are the same as listed on the Weyr Wikipedia page. Unfortunately, whoever edited the page did not reference a source.
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Old Jan 15 2008, 03:34 PM   #9
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Aristo, I don't think there's anything original on the Pern Wiki despite it being a nice collection of data.

Jayru, Hartley took down his wonderful Pern pages after Anne received the Ron . Hubbard lifetime achievement prize (even though she had been on the jury for the Writers of the Future). I had a good email correspondence with Hartley and his pages, deductions and special spreadsheet for populations questions and have saved all the data. I have been hesitant, however, to put up that data. I worked with Hartley on the demographic stuff I have somehow felt until now that the other interesting writings he had on those pages (and he wrote well and with humor) are anybody else's to "give away"; silly maybe, but that's it.
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Old Jan 15 2008, 03:59 PM   #10
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Well, I would never re-publish them - not with his permission (and yours). I made a note of them for reference only, becasue of stuff I was going to work out for Rukbat3 - but decided not to do, becasue his site already dealt with those things. In fact, until this thread I had forgotten I still had a copy of the data.

However, I never discarded the data, and nore have I made use of it on my site, or anywhere else. It remains as not used reference material.

I am all for protecting an authors right to do what they want with there own work so it will never leave my PC, or appear on any site I run, own or am a part of.

It's sad that he took the site down, but I fully understand he stance - and found what he put up in it's place interesting and informative.
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Old Jan 15 2008, 09:27 PM   #11
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristokat View Post
I don't know where those figures originated, but they are the same as listed on the Weyr Wikipedia page. Unfortunately, whoever edited the page did not reference a source.
Yep, that's the culprit.
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Old Jan 16 2008, 09:08 AM   #12
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Aristo, I don't think there's anything original on the Pern Wiki despite it being a nice collection of data.
I don't think so, either. But I thought it was worth mentioning, as no one else had quoted a "source" (and I'm using that term very loosely.) The numbers obviously didn't come out of thin air, but there wasn't any reference to where the Wiki editor got them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricDragon View Post
Yep, that's the culprit.
I figured so.
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Old Jan 18 2008, 10:51 AM   #13
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Hi there all. Long time lurker, first time poster.

The original six Weyrs, at full complement, would have close to three thousands dragons in total (Dragonflight).

A Wing at full strength is 33 dragons (The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern).

Full fighting strength for a Weyr is considered to be 10 Wings (The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern).

Fort Weyr houses 500 dragons at full complement (The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern).

Benden Weyr houses 350 dragons at full complement (The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern).

(Sorry, I don't have page #s at the moment)
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Old Jan 18 2008, 10:59 AM   #14
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Welcome J'rem!

If you want to, please post in the welcoming thread in the Cafe, too?
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Old Jan 18 2008, 11:06 AM   #15
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Thanks for the welcome, Hans! I will do so.
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Old Jan 18 2008, 11:47 PM   #16
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Quote:
Originally Posted by J'rem View Post
Hi there all. Long time lurker, first time poster.

The original six Weyrs, at full complement, would have close to three thousands dragons in total (Dragonflight).

A Wing at full strength is 33 dragons (The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern).

Full fighting strength for a Weyr is considered to be 10 Wings (The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern).

Fort Weyr houses 500 dragons at full complement (The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern).

Benden Weyr houses 350 dragons at full complement (The Dragonlover's Guide to Pern).

(Sorry, I don't have page #s at the moment)
Yep, I've seen those numbers too.

I always looked a little sideways at the number for Benden as it doesn't really square with the fact that Benden's supposed to be so all-fired huge. That's why I rather like the unsourced numbers from the wiki. They're irregular, sloppy, messy and have a realistic feel because of it.
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Old Nov 17 2009, 03:37 PM   #17
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

I know this is an old topic, but I meant to add to it.

In the first book, Lessa states that Benden has a capacity of 500 (Page 120), but currently holds 200. Of course, in intervals the dragons lay less (which makes me confused as to how there are 600 dragons at Telgar in RSR!). Later on in the book, the Old-timers state that they have brought 1800 dragons (Page 336) and it is said earlier on that the eight pass has just ended, making the mean amount of oldtimer dragons per Weyr amount to 360 each. I believe it says somewhere (the DLG?) that rarely can a Weyrleader boast that his weyr is at full strength, as there are less dragons in an interval, and plenty die in passes.

Confusingly, the DLG states that Fort holds a capacity of 500 (Page 90), but on the next page, states that the kitchens have room to feed the "450 dragonriders). So unless this is how many riders are currently at Fort, it is probably a stuff-up. As for Benden, on page 105, the statement reads that "Not all of the individual weyrs have sanitary facilities. The Weyr continued to grow long beyond the day that the stonecutters ran out of fuel. When Benden reached its full complement of 350 dragons, the masons, who were by then working with simpler tools, broke through behind natural ridges into volcanic air pockets to form rudimentary weyrs". It also mentions that Wingleaders occasionally have lounges for meeting other wingleaders in (Of course, being the DLG, the accuracy is up for debate). The section on High Reaches Weyr also states that exterior pipes were made for the later Weyrs.

If you ask me, this means that the original Weyr was built with 350 weyrs, but over time grew to 500, and any of the other weyrs could have done this, which would account for the differences in capacities between books. Another thing that interests me is the mention of lounges. Todd McCaffrey has mentioned in DB that Benden has corridors going to individual weyrs. This could have been done for the lower levels of weyrs, before the stonecutters died, so that the earlier riders wouldn't feel trapped. Over time, the riders got used to it and didn't care. By the time of DF, it had reached its capacity of 500, and 150 extra unconnected weyrs had been added; one of which initially housed F'lar. This works with DB, which mentions 370 dragons (counting hatchlings) living in the Weyr (Page 263). Although, once again there are lots of dragons before the fall. I guess the dragon count builds up towards the end of the interval.

As for the other Weyrs, Igen and Ista are the smaller holds, and I think Ista is the smaller. I haven't managed to find the relevant pages, but if almost all of High Reaches went to Southern, then that's the minimum of High Reaches Weyr (In one of the books, someone mentions how many riders from Southern have either died or returned to the other weyrs, conforming).

For Fort to be the "Mightiest" Weyr, it might need to have the highest count, although it is mentioned that Fort Weyr is situated in a medium sized caldera in the DLG. It also mentions in the Telgar section that Fort, Benden and Telgar are of similar sizes. With that in mind, it could be assumed that the count for each Weyr is something around:

Fort: 650
Telgar: 600
Benden: 500
High Reaches: 400-500
Igen: 350-400
Ista: 300-350

Bear in mind that this is completely conjectural, and the numbers assumed. Fort may not be as large as listed here, so it may need to be moved down the chart. Does anyone know if it is ever said how many Dragons are on Pern? If we split the count amongst the Weyrs, we might be able to figure it out once and for all.
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Old Nov 17 2009, 05:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

In one of the first three (this year's MCQ) it is stated that a largish number of the Ista dragons/riders weyr on the outer slopes of the caldera.
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Old Nov 19 2009, 04:03 PM   #19
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Had another look, and in Todd's books, (Stated in Dragon's Fire) 300 seems to be the average number of dragons per Weyr, or twice that for Telgar, being two Weyrs. This could make sense, as the dragons were smaller then, and there might have been fewer weyrs at that point.

So far, I haven't been able to find any evidence of 600 being Telgar's capacity in RSR/DE, but I'll keep looking. D'gan does say in DB that Telgar is the largest Weyr, but this is most likely him being vain, and referring to the fact that Telgar is essentially Igen as well.

Early in DB, when they count the injuries at Telgar, it would seem that they had about 530 dragons. However, later on, when they send their own Weyrlings to Igen, they predict about 330, which would bring them back to "full strength". Confusing...although maybe he means the minimum dragons required for Telgar, or at least for them to look good.

In Moreta, the Igen Weyrleader says that "15 are dead, 140 are sick", and later says he has 8 wings as opposed to Benden's 12. According to the DLG, a wing is "30 dragons, in good times", and 12 is the smallest amount that can make up a wing. Adding this up, this gives Igen a capacity somewhere between 250-515.

It would seem that queens lay more in preparation for Falls, so it is likely that a Weyr will be full just before a pass.

Ista is the smallest Weyr, and also has less weyrs because one side was blown away in the volcanic eruption that created the Weyr, although some dragons live on the outside of the mount, or even in the forests.

Of course, nothing dictates that there have to be vast differences in numbers between the Weyrs. Who knows, maybe they are all somewhere in the 500-600 count.
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Old Nov 29 2009, 04:34 AM   #20
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Quote:
As for the other Weyrs, Igen and Ista are the smaller holds, and I think Ista is the smaller. I haven't managed to find the relevant pages, but if almost all of High Reaches went to Southern, then that's the minimum of High Reaches Weyr (In one of the books, someone mentions how many riders from Southern have either died or returned to the other weyrs, conforming).
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Old Dec 7 2009, 08:01 PM   #21
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Blue Re: Weyr capacities

I had another read through of the Atlas, and I made notes of various things regarding the weyrs.

On the big maps, the mountains that the Weyrs are situated in are shown. In order from smallest to largest:

Ista
High Reaches
Benden/Fort
Igen
Telgar

Of course, this isn't entirely accurate, as some of the mountains were drawn from different angles, and we know from Dragonflight that Fort is supposed to be the largest Weyr (Benden looks larger, but isn't, according to DD). Plus, despite the size of each mountain, it doesn't mean that the bowl reaches to the bottom, allowing more weyrs.

Interesting to note is that High Reaches is made of "more solid materials", and up until the time of Moreta, the Weyrling barracks and Kitchen caverns were buildings in the Bowl. It is possible that High Reaches may in fact be the second smallest Weyr, as the Seven Spindles that are its icon would prevent the construction of weyrs in that area. Plus, in the picture, not only are no weyrs depicted on the spindles, but it looks like only 2 of the four sides of the Weyr are occupied. However, this is more likely an illusion caused by the angling of the picture (one side is not visible, and the other is obscured by a cut-away detailing the new kitchens.

Also, according to the Atlas, a wing usually consists of 33, (One Wingleader, Two Wingseconds, and 30 Riders), and there are 10-14 wings in each weyr. That makes anything from 330-462 dragons per Weyr. Hmm...

So, maybe a list of the largest Weyrs is more like this:

Fort
Benden/Telgar (Telgar possibly larger)
Igen
High Reaches
Ista
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Old Dec 8 2009, 04:23 AM   #22
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

I can't find either, in DE/RSR but the Weyrleaders say something close to 600 dragons in the Weyr and that they would maybe have to shif some of extra to other Weyrs.
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Old Dec 8 2009, 06:02 PM   #23
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Found the RSR/DE quote! It was listed on the Pern Encyclopedia (Chapter 10, Page 255), and it says that Telgar has close to 600 Dragons. Its capacity may be even higher, if that is added to the statement that Telgar is nearly full, and that the hatching counts are huge.

If when all Weyrs are full, there are about 3000 dragons on Pern, then maybe it's more like this, give or take a few to create a difference in numbers:

Fort & Telgar: 600
Benden & Igen: 500
High Reaches & Ista: 400
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Old Dec 9 2009, 02:16 AM   #24
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2cent Re: Weyr capacities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almaron View Post
Found the RSR/DE quote! It was listed on the Pern Encyclopedia (Chapter 10, Page 255), and it says that Telgar has close to 600 Dragons. Its capacity may be even higher, if that is added to the statement that Telgar is nearly full, and that the hatching counts are huge.

If when all Weyrs are full, there are about 3000 dragons on Pern, then maybe it's more like this, give or take a few to create a difference in numbers:

Fort & Telgar: 600
Benden & Igen: 500
High Reaches & Ista: 400
Its also say at the moment 600 Pg 221 Del-Rey/Ballantine Book HardBack
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Old Dec 9 2009, 05:37 PM   #25
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

Darn. Just remembered that Igen is considered one of the smaller Weyrs. Maybe High Reaches is slightly larger than that. Strange, High Reaches seems so small in the picture, but is never referred to as such. Maybe my original list was the closest.

Fort: 650?
Telgar: <600?
Benden: 500
High Reaches: 450?
Igen: 400
Ista: >400?
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Old Dec 10 2009, 01:03 AM   #26
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2cent Re: Weyr capacities

[QUOTE=Almaron;155828]Darn. Just remembered that Igen is considered one of the smaller Weyrs. Maybe High Reaches is slightly larger than that. Strange, High Reaches seems so small in the picture, but is never referred to as such. Maybe my original list was the closest.
With Ista being the smallest, for when D'ram open the mating flight of his jr queen, he only wanted what was best for the Weyr.

Igen DLGP once had the most area to cover, but we don't know alot of that on expect that the Weyr lake can blind folks, and most things take place in the cooler times.
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Old Jun 29 2012, 02:44 AM   #27
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Default Re: Weyr capacities

I've been having another look at notes like this recently, and I think I might have found some good stuff:

First, several key lines I've found in various books;
Fort:
The largest Weyr - AOP
Was built with a capacity of 500/450 weyrs - DLG
Benden:
Was built with a capacity of 350 weyrs - DLG
Able to hold nearly 370 dragons by Third Pass; new weyrs being constructed - DB
Has 500 weyrs by Ninth Pass - DF
High Reaches:
???
Igen:
One of the smaller weyrs - DLG
Over 372 weyrs in Second Interval - DH
Able to hold an estimated 409 dragons by Sixth Pass - M
Ista:
The smallest Weyr - AOP
Able to hold 337 dragons by Third Pass - DB
Telgar:
Able to hold more than 600 dragons by First Interval - RSR
Able to hold 547 dragons by Third Pass - DB
Weyr Capacities/Dragon Count:
Third Pass: Less than 3000 dragons - DB
Sixth Pass Tally: 2300 dragons; 383 dragons per Weyr - M
Oldtimer Tally: 1800 dragons; 360 dragons per Weyr - DF
Ninth Pass Capacity: Close to 3000 dragons; est 458* dragons per Weyr - DF
Mid Ninth Pass: 6240 dragons (including Southern Continent) - SOP

*Number achieved by assuming the number is something over 2750; else they
would be more likely to say "more than 2500 dragons".

As noted by ElectricDragon on another page (link below), the Pern game states that 330-360 dragons (with each Weyr having around nine wings) is the average number in a Weyr. An interview cited in the AOP states that Weyrs have ten to fourteen wings, which gives them capacities from 330 to 462 (thirty three being the ideal number for a wing; twelve is the minimum).

According to the DLG, the weyrs at Fort Weyr were built to suit their eventual
evolved size (which they reached in the Second Pass, according to the DLG, but
DB retcons this to sometime around the Third Pass, and stayed that way until the
Second Long Interval). ElectricDragon suggested here (http://forums.srellim.org/showthread.php?t=5135) that dragons could potentially share weyrs with others, but we haven't seen any evidence of this in the series. RSR does mention that Telgar Weyr is "nearly full" with 600 dragons near the start of the Second Pass; judging by the forementioned evolved sizes, the dragons would probably be half their size, so they could share, but then it'd be a tad cramped by the Second Interval/Third Pass, and who would agree to move the entire Weyr to Telgar if there wasn't room for them? It'd make far more sense to divide the riders into groups and shift them to each Weyr - unless shifting the entire Weyr was a plan of D'gan's to prove Igen riders in the eyes of others, but even then, he'd have had trouble convincing the Weyrleader to keep the weyr together if there was a much simpler option; and it's not unusual for dragonriders to get sent to other Weyrs.

With this in mind, it's likely that each Weyr has more excavated weyrs than they actually use most of the time; just in case they end up with too many dragons for whatever reason.

Conclusions (by the Ninth Pass):
Fort: Over 600; more than Telgar
Benden: 500
High Reaches: Around 500
Igen: Around 400
Ista: 400 or less; less than Igen
Telgar: Over 600
Overall Total: Nearly 3000 weyrs

Of course, one final option remains; just because a Weyr is the largest doesn't necessarily mean it has more weyrs than the others. Why would a Weyr need to excavate more rooms if they had built too many to begin with? It's an understandable move at a smaller Weyr, but not at one like Fort, which was apparently built with 500 weyrs, yet rarely fills them all. Alternatively, it should be noted a landslide destroyed several weyrs at Fort Weyr - some time between the Third and Sixth Passes - and these might have affected the tally for Fort over time.
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Old Jul 1 2012, 09:34 PM   #28
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This is very interesting. I'd like to print out various posts and file them with my copy of DLG.

A study on how all these dragons were fed would be interesting.
600 beasts every WEEK minimum! ???? That's a large turnaround of animals.
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Old Jul 4 2012, 09:01 PM   #29
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Don't dragons also hunt outside the Weyrs, though?
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Old Jul 5 2012, 12:54 PM   #30
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Probably only in the Southern Continent, at least in normal times.

Apart from wild wherries and big marine fishes, most of the stock available in the north seems to belong to various holders who already provide for the dragons via tithes. There was some raiding in the turns just before the Ninth Pass, when most of the Holds had stopped tithing altogether.

In TWD, Jaxom asked permission from a holder for Ruth to feed directly from his herd. The animal(s) would presumably be deducted from the tithe.

Unsanctioned hunting would be resented.
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Old Jul 7 2012, 06:36 PM   #31
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Methinks I should have waited a bit before posting all that...I'm reading through Dragongirl, and there's some useful notes that change a few things; for starters, one of the inhabitants of Telgar Weyr states there are "near five hundred weyrs", which would suggest that some of the dragons were sharing weyrs in the First and Second Intervals.

Later on, a tally of each Weyr gives the following info:

Fort: 156
Benden: 197
High Reaches: 328
Igen: 0 (still empty)
Ista: 307*
Telgar: 40 (Fiona's group)

In addition to this, Kindan notes they should have 3000 dragons, and as many as 30 queens.

*I haven't actually read this far through the book yet; I just noticed the tally while flipping through. As such, I'm not sure why Ista has so many dragons when I thought they were the worst affected...did they get replenished by High Reaches?

With that in mind, I guess the tally is more like this:

Fort: 500
Benden: Over 350 by Third Pass, 500 by Ninth Pass
High Reaches: Over 400?
Igen: 400 by Third Pass?
Ista: Less than 400
Telgar: Near 500

In my opinion, it's beginning to look like all the Weyrs might have reached 400-500 totals over time; Fort and Telgar might have been the largest weyrs initially (makes sense; Fort was built to hold them all, and Telgar was next to a mine, so could have gotten a lot of aid), with Benden initially being as small as Ista, before becoming one of the biggest some time around or after the Third Pass. Igen and Ista might have done the same, but also might not have had the space to expand to become as large as the others - alternatively, Igen might have reached its full capacity in the First Pass; considering it once had the largest area to cover, plus DH seems to show the only hand-hewn corridor was the one leading to the Star Stones*. High Reaches...well, there's not that much information about them actually. But it could be assumed making new weyrs would have taken a while, since they had harder rock that prevented excavation for a while.

*Of course, they could have later expanded after that; the easiest solution for the inconsistency regarding stairs in the Weyrs is that all the weyrs in the later books without them were built some time after the stonecutters stopped being used (such as F'lar's original weyr at Benden - which somehow still got a shaft)...

(Additional research in progress!)
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Old Jul 8 2012, 12:44 PM   #32
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This is one of the things I love about this place: The synergy of like minds, pondering and making sense of stuff like this. It's really thought-provoking and helpful.
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