A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum  

Go Back   A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum > The Anne McCaffrey Collection > Dragonriders of Pern

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Jan 2 2012, 06:58 PM   #1
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default ATWOP/DOP oddities

Argh...ATWOP and DOP seem determined to contradict each other on so many different levels.

ROP states AIVAS was unearthed in 17PP.
In ATWOP, this has seemingly changed to 19PP, as "two turns later" it is said to be 21PP, and then another two turns or so later Project Overkill comes to a close and Robinton passes away, presumably making it 23PP.

In DOP, the year Robinton dies is said to be 21PP, as Readis' class is named "Class 21" because of that.
Three turns later (so 24PP), F'lar states they have only twenty-two years of Threadfall left; making 46 Turns overall. We don't know how far through the turn they are, but since Aivas said it would be "47 Turns", it's pretty close.

Another problem is Readis' age; in ATWOP he's five, in DOP he's seven. Jayge and Aramina ran away together in 13PP; so if they could potentially have had Readis in that year (provided their relationship started fairly quickly), which would make him four by the 17th Turn when AIVAS was discovered, or six if it's been changed to the 19th Turn. Worse, at the end of the book he claims to be 18, when he was said to be 11 only three turns prior. Guess AIVAS' classes weren't big on math.

So...how does this get explained? Are ROP and ATWOP wrong, and did excavating Landing take four years instead of two? Is ATWOP wrong, and the dates listed incorrect? DOP is obviously wrong when it comes to Readis' age, but aside from that, but is it also wrong when mentioning the years?

I'm thinking ROP and DOP are accurate, and ATWOP errs with dates, as I think this creates less inconsistencies than ATWOP does if it's correct (for one, ATWOP's dating being incorrect explains why two turns are missing, and means "Class 21" being named after the year is correct).

Uh-oh...SOP states Shankolin attacked AIVAS in 17PP, when ATWOP and DOP give the date as 21PP and 19PP, respectively! I suppose at least THIS can be explained as Shankolin not counting the years properly...

(On another note, DOP oddly has Oterel and Begamon berating Toric at the end of the book...despite the fact that Oterel died five turns back and Begamon was banished for his involvement in Robinton's abduction. We can assume Ranrel and Ciparis were there instead. The good thing about all this is that we can correct this and explain the error; many times an identified error has been corrected in a later book, like how Kahrain Hold was renamed Rubicon River Hold in the DLG.)

Last edited by Almaron; Jan 3 2012 at 12:11 AM.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 2 2012, 07:57 PM   #2
Kugai
Crazy Kiwi Shoujo-Ai Fan
 
Kugai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wellington NEW ZEALAND
Gender: M
Fan of: Tower and Hive Series
Now Reading: Whatever takes my fancy at the moment
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

This is nothing uncommon with Annes books. There are both small and major Anneconsistencies (as most know them as) prevalent throughout most of her major series, a lot of them more apparent in the Pern series as it is her longest running saga. One has to take them with a grain of salt, and just try to reconcile them between each book when they show up.
__________________
JAMES THE
You can never have too much Coffee

Homepage
FreeBabylon5
FreeBabylon5 Website
Kugai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 3 2012, 03:16 AM   #3
Hans
Master Archivist
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

LOL, welcome to the club Almaron!

I discussed Readis' age with Anne. That one - unfortunately - can be solved, no matter what.
You'll also find his daughter has two different names
and together with Anne I solved a small discrepancy about who the fire lizard named Sailor belongs to

As Kugai says, the date and age discrepancies are common throughout the series.

And then there are the differences between US and UK editions! The UK AtWoP has about 40 (!) minor characters more in the vastlist than its US counterpart...
__________________
Hans, also known as Elrhan, Master Archivist

Visit The Pern Museum & Archives for all your Pern and Anne McCaffrey News and Resources!
The Pern Museum & Archives is the home of the Pern Encyclopedia and the Pern Bloodlines.
Hans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 3 2012, 04:15 AM   #4
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Quote:
I discussed Readis' age with Anne. That one - unfortunately - can be solved, no matter what.
You'll also find his daughter has two different names
and together with Anne I solved a small discrepancy about who the fire lizard named Sailor belongs to
Readis has a daughter? Or do you mean Jayge? I thought they said in DOP he had two daughters; Aranya and Almie.

I've noticed problems with multiple spellings of names (Kenjo Fusaiyuki's wife has a different name in each book she's in: Ika (DD), Ito (COP), Ita (SOP)!); at the moment I'm working on combatting that on the Pern wiki by redirecting all misspelt variants of a name to the correct name, and mentioning the error on the page itself (for example, in Moreta, Orlith is said fairly early on to have a partiality for the Benden Weyrleader's dragon "Tuzuth", yet the dragon in question is referred to as "Kuzuth" ever after, so "Tuzuth" will link to a page that opens with something like "Kuzuth, (mistakenly called "Tuzuth")...").

Don't remember seeing Sailor...who's he Impressed to? I should add a link on the wiki to wherever it says that.

Quote:
And then there are the differences between US and UK editions! The UK AtWoP has about 40 (!) minor characters more in the vastlist than its US counterpart...
Wow! Guess I should be thankful now that my edition of ATWOP doesn't have a character list - was rather annoyed that I had to get names by searching through the whole book.

DOP seems to have quite a few oddities with its own character list; I don't recall Piemur's son being mentioned at all, despite him being listed as a character, and a lot of the Dolphin names are misspelt or in the wrong pods!

These are just the most glaring oddities I've found so far while reading through to write synopses and character lists, so I should find more as time goes on. With a bit of luck, all of this written down in one place should help us find answers for the "Anne-consistencies" and even a few of Todd's (or at least a few good theories).

Last edited by Almaron; Jan 4 2012 at 12:50 AM.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 3 2012, 07:27 PM   #5
Kugai
Crazy Kiwi Shoujo-Ai Fan
 
Kugai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Wellington NEW ZEALAND
Gender: M
Fan of: Tower and Hive Series
Now Reading: Whatever takes my fancy at the moment
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

I guess the easiest way is to stick to a lot of what was set down in The Dragonlovers Guide - though I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are issues with that one as well. In BOTH editions.
__________________
JAMES THE
You can never have too much Coffee

Homepage
FreeBabylon5
FreeBabylon5 Website
Kugai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 3 2012, 08:42 PM   #6
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Ohhh, yeah.

There are also a lot of things that the fans have sort of collectively decided, that aren't in any books - like the idea that the Moreta who saved Pern from the plague and the Moreta who could hear all dragons were two different people who got mixed together over time in the people's memory. (Moreta II is Nerilka's daughter.)
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 3 2012, 09:25 PM   #7
Cheryl
Master Archivist
 
Cheryl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland, USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern!
Now Reading: Paladin of Souls (Bujold)
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kugai View Post
I guess the easiest way is to stick to a lot of what was set down in The Dragonlovers Guide - though I wouldn't be surprised to find that there are issues with that one as well. In BOTH editions.
Yep, there are a whole lot of errors in the DLG, the bulk of which seem to be due to Nye working from draft versions of the stories in Chronicles of Pern that differed from the final ones.

Also, the DLG only covers so many books and doesn't necessarily deal with the details over which other books disagree.
__________________
Visit one of the other sites of Cheryl's Anne McCaffrey Triad:
Sariel's Guide to Pern: a detailed guide to the series
The Many Works of Anne McCaffrey: largest fan site about Anne and ALL of her works
McCaffrey Quest: annual trivia contest.
Cheryl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 3 2012, 10:05 PM   #8
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Quote:
Ohhh, yeah.

There are also a lot of things that the fans have sort of collectively decided, that aren't in any books - like the idea that the Moreta who saved Pern from the plague and the Moreta who could hear all dragons were two different people who got mixed together over time in the people's memory. (Moreta II is Nerilka's daughter.)
That's sort of mentioned in the Atlas, so it could be said to be canon:

Quote:
Note: the famed Moreta of the Pandemic time was originally from Keroon, but was so closely associated with Ruatha that over a thousand Turns this relationship may have become confused; or there may have been two Moretas, as names are reused (Interview)
In fact...I don't think Nerilka's Story had been written when the Atlas of Pern was published - it's not listed as a source at the back. And the Moreta who was Nerilka's daughter wasn't mentioned until then; perhaps following that interview, Anne decided to include the second Moreta as a subtle hint towards an explanation?

Either way, I think what you've said is right.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 3 2012, 11:43 PM   #9
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

IIRC, didn't Anne at least in interviews flat-out say that the Moreta who was Ruathan and could HAD was Alessan and Nerilka's daughter Moreta? Which would make Moreta II both Ruathan and HAD, and also pretty much keeps the HADs (besides Brekke) in the Ruathan family (Torene 'marries' into it via M'hall, Moreta II is Alessan's daughter, Lessa is obvious, and Aramina's Lessa's distant cousin.)

Which makes a degree of sense in-story, too: there were two Moretas, one who Impressed at Ista (never mind the can of worms about Orlith being Holth's daughter THAT opens) and was Weyrwoman of Fort and who saved Pern from a plague, and one who was Ruathan Blood, was Weyrwoman of Benden, and could HAD. They were relatively close in time, at the beginning of an Interval, and over the thousand or so years between then and Dragonflight it would make sense references would get muddled, especially with Moreta I's contemporaries deliberately muddling the circumstances of her Ride in the songs and stories. At some point with the records deteriorating people probably saw references to both Moretas, figured they were the same person, and by the time there was only one Weyr the assumption was the Moreta in the songs must have been the one from Benden.
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 4 2012, 04:02 AM   #10
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

With regards to all these issues, I've just added a page to the Pern wiki called "Inconsistencies". At the moment, it's pretty bare bones - I haven't got all the notes and sources ready yet to write the page up, so at the moment it's peppered with draft texts.

http://pern.wikia.com/wiki/Inconsistencies

My plan is to list the most glaring inconsistencies in the Pern novels, and list potential explanations for them. There's probably enough there at the moment for you to see what I'm planning to write for most of them.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 4 2012, 01:53 PM   #11
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

No, no, no - it's been long established that things like these are called Anne-consistencies!
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 4 2012, 02:35 PM   #12
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Heheh...yeah, I know. I'll mention that as an alternate name for the page in the Introduction section.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 5 2012, 06:42 AM   #13
Hans
Master Archivist
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Almaron,

Oops, yes I meant Jayge. From the top of my head Aranya is also called Janara or something like it (see PE).

I wasn't clear on AtWoP obviously. It has no castlist, I was referring to the staunch research done by MoM staff member Anneli who went through the UK book with a fine tooth comb. The characters were by no means the only differences although AtWoP is, fortunately, not the rule when it comes to differences bewteen US and UK editions (thank goodness).
__________________
Hans, also known as Elrhan, Master Archivist

Visit The Pern Museum & Archives for all your Pern and Anne McCaffrey News and Resources!
The Pern Museum & Archives is the home of the Pern Encyclopedia and the Pern Bloodlines.
Hans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 5 2012, 11:42 PM   #14
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Is Anneli's research posted somewhere?
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 10 2012, 03:22 PM   #15
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Argh, I'm finding a good deal of the dramatis personaes are incorrect. The ones in the Harper Hall books don't list every character, which means I'm going to have to go back and edit the lists (shouldn't be too hard), and Red Star Rising not only lacks several characters, but at least two dragon/rider pairings are mixed up (Angie and Jule are said to be Prath and Plath's riders, yet the book states Angie is Plath's rider, and the DLG states Jule is Alanth's rider)!

On another note, I've added a new format style to the "Anne-Consistency" wiki page for dealing with retconned material - for example, when the exterior of the Harper Hall was built. The section has two columns; the left side stating the "original" material (M: Harper Hall exterior built in Sixth Pass), and the right side stating the "altered" material (RSR: Harper Hall exterior built in First Interval), with a section underneath that explains the change, and offers a potential explanation for this (perhaps the Harper Hall's exterior was renovated or expanded in the Sixth Pass).

BTW, Hans, I'm writing up book synopses for the Wiki (which you can use if you like) and I'm also taking notes about which characters appear or are mentioned in each chapter (like on this page: http://concord.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Pern_Books ) so that character pages can be quickly written by flicking to the appropriate chapter and getting the right reference. I haven't put any of these lists up yet (at the moment that link has lists for MHOP, DF and DQ, and I've finished the ones for the Harper Hall trilogy and DOP), but I could send them to you if you want to use them to write character things for your Encyclopedia.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 11 2012, 12:10 PM   #16
Hans
Master Archivist
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda View Post
Is Anneli's research posted somewhere?
I don't think so, not integral. The extra characters are of course in the Pern Encyclopedia.
__________________
Hans, also known as Elrhan, Master Archivist

Visit The Pern Museum & Archives for all your Pern and Anne McCaffrey News and Resources!
The Pern Museum & Archives is the home of the Pern Encyclopedia and the Pern Bloodlines.
Hans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 11 2012, 12:56 PM   #17
Hans
Master Archivist
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Almaron, the unplublished "Who's Who on Pern" by Anne McCaffrey, Hans van dr Boom, Anneli Conroy and Cheryl Miller (you might recognise the name ) lists 1,494 characters for all of Anne's books Including 23 unnamed ones). The master list, built on the list Anne herself sent me, which containe d"only" about 1,200 character names.

there are actually two characters named Angie. One is a female dolphin calf of the Pardisriv Pod (one of two wounded in a big storm), appearing in DoP.
The Angie you name is a weyrling, rider of green Plath. You can safely write off Prath as a misspelling (confirmed by the author herself), as far as I know this misspelling only appeared in UK editions, can you confirm that? I think you can as you speak of RSR and not of DE

Jule's dragon is unknown but it is a green. She is weyrbred at Telgar Weyr. Her dragon is mistakenly mentioned as Plath (Angie's dragon) in the Dragondex. Alanth only appears in DLG and not in the books, therefor the name is not in the WWoP.

I might hold you to your offer os synopses but as character lists go... I think I have a superb one and Todd sends me his lists which I compare to the books as soon as I get them (incuding a check against the Advanced Readers Copies, although I don't think I'll get those automatically now Anne has passed away.)

Of course in teh PE characters are all under their names. I haven't done / don't do lists per book though I've got it all in Excell sheets that can be sorted any which way.
Anne's original lists also included seperate lists for dragons, dragons by colour and fire lizards and I have maintained those.

As for sailor... he looks to Alemi His PE entry begins with:

Alemi: Journeyman and later Master Fisherman. Owner of fire lizard Sailor. The name of his fire lizard does not appear in any of the books but was given to me by Anne McCaffrey after a discussion about the ownership of the fire lizard called Tork, about which Anne decided he looks to Jayge Lilcamp [source: email correspondence between Hans van der Boom and Anne McCaffrey, June 2001].
__________________
Hans, also known as Elrhan, Master Archivist

Visit The Pern Museum & Archives for all your Pern and Anne McCaffrey News and Resources!
The Pern Museum & Archives is the home of the Pern Encyclopedia and the Pern Bloodlines.
Hans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 11 2012, 02:46 PM   #18
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Quote:
Almaron, the unplublished "Who's Who on Pern" by Anne McCaffrey, Hans van dr Boom, Anneli Conroy and Cheryl Miller (you might recognise the name ) lists 1,494 characters for all of Anne's books Including 23 unnamed ones). The master list, built on the list Anne herself sent me, which containe d"only" about 1,200 character names.
Hmm...could I have a link to that (or could you tell me what the missing names are) so I could add the missing names to the Wiki? I'll obviously need to add citations (still working on those, which is linked to why a lot of Wiki pages are blank at the minute)...

Quote:
The Angie you name is a weyrling, rider of green Plath. You can safely write off Prath as a misspelling (confirmed by the author herself), as far as I know this misspelling only appeared in UK editions, can you confirm that? I think you can as you speak of RSR and not of DE
Well, I think mine is the NZ edition, but I think that it's the same for Australia and the UK. Corgi Print 1997, published by Transworld Publishers. I need to learn how to read the jargon at the front of books...

Quote:
Jule's dragon is unknown but it is a green. She is weyrbred at Telgar Weyr. Her dragon is mistakenly mentioned as Plath (Angie's dragon) in the Dragondex. Alanth only appears in DLG and not in the books, therefor the name is not in the WWoP.
Surely Alanth is the proper name then - the DLG is considered canon to some degree, isn't it (despite the numerous errors in the character list)? Would it be worth adding something like "Jule's dragon was not named in RSR/DE, but was given the name 'Alanth' in the DLG"?

Last edited by Almaron; Jan 11 2012 at 11:02 PM.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26 2012, 05:02 AM   #19
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Argh, the time gaps between each book are getting more and more confusing. Let's see:

*DF ends three months into the first turn of the Ninth Pass (1PP).
*DQ begins eight turns (EDIT: no, seven turns) after that (8PP). Around this time, Menolly Impresses her fire-lizards and Jaxom Impresses Ruth.
*DD (and ROP) dates Piemur's trip to Southern at 11PP.
*WD begins in 12PP, though the bulk of it takes place in 15PP. However, this coupled with the dialogue in the early chapters dates Menolly and Jaxom's Impressions at 10PP (worse, one bit suggests the Oldtimers went south in 9PP, and another bit suggests the Southern Continent was unused until 3PP).
*ROP concludes in 17PP (two turns after WD), then - as mentioned above - jumps to 19PP in ATWOP, only to revert to 17PP in DOP.

Resolving this shouldn't be too hard; it's just a matter of deciding which books got the date wrong. I've already suggested on the Pern Wiki that ATWOP got the dates wrong, since DOP's dates fit better with a number of things stated in the books (well, better than ATWOP's, at least).

Did ten turns, not eight, pass between DF and DQ? As such, does that mean Piemur went south in 13PP, not 11PP, making DD and ROP's dating incorrect?
Or is WD wrong; should the opening chapter read 10PP instead of 12PP? As for the later chapters, is 15PP accurate (meaning Jaxom and the others spent five turns at the Smithcrafthall instead of three), or should it read 13PP (and mean four turns were spent excavating Landing instead of two)?

Personally, I think changing WD's opening chapter to 10PP is the simplest way to fix the timeline. Another item of note is that little connects the early events in ROP with WD (although I might need to check whether or not this would affect K'van, Mirrim and F'lessan's Impression dates). Could parts of ROP be shifted two years back, to age up Readis in DOP - and possibly explain how he randomly aged two years in DOP.

Last edited by Almaron; May 30 2012 at 11:51 PM.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2012, 01:27 AM   #20
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Wait, hang on, I think I've got it! WD has to take place during 15PP, otherwise Jaxom would be considered too young - this makes him eighteen; just old enough to be considered an adult, which is a major part of the book.

This means only a few dates need to be shifted around - and a few lines regarding dates need to be ignored, but anne-consistencies like that in books are nothing new - to fix things across all Ninth Pass books; the opening of WD needs to be shifted from 12PP to 10PP, and ATWOP's dates need to be shifted back two turns. Of course, there's still Readis's age to sort out, but that can also be fixed by moving back some of the dates in ROP (which, as mentioned above, can be easily done since they don't interfere with events in other books).
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27 2012, 11:06 PM   #21
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

I thought DQ starts seven Turns into the Pass? Doesn't it say that in the introduction to DQ?
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2012, 12:18 PM   #22
Eriflor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Gender: F
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda View Post
I thought DQ starts seven Turns into the Pass? Doesn't it say that in the introduction to DQ?
That's what it says in Chapter 1 of DQ --- unfortunately that would make Felessan no more than 6 turns old in DQ, but he's mentioned as being 3 turns younger than Jaxom, who is "not quite turned 12". Then again, if Jaxom's 12, and it's 7 turns since the Oldtimers came forward, that would mean Ramoth rose to mate at 5 turns, which is also off.

Eriflor.
Eriflor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28 2012, 11:50 PM   #23
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Ah, so it is DQ that needs to be moved forwards, not WD? Darn...that means DD and ROP are going to get all mixed up...I dunno, I think I need to take more of a look at things to see how this could be fixed.

EDIT: I think in this case we can assume the ages are wrong; although shifting DQ to 10PP corrects most of the dates and statements in WD, and also ensures that Jaxom and Felessan are the right age in DQ, this shifts DD ahead to 13PP, which then affects ROP, since several chapters cut between the same point in time in the Northern and Southern Continents - and I don't really think it's possible for us to shift half a chapter ahead and leave the other half. This would mean Jayge and Aramina came South in 14PP, and yet somehow had a three-turn old Readis by 15PP, when Piemur discovers them. Unless of course we move the next dates ahead, and so on, and so on...

Assuming the ages given are wrong is the easier solution; besides, it's already not possible to resolve Readis' age in DOP, so we just ignore that as a mistake. Same should apply here.

Last edited by Almaron; May 29 2012 at 12:18 AM.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 08:21 PM   #24
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Let's see...

Jaxom is born the night before Lessa Impresses Ramoth.

Three turns, then Ramoth rises.

Another half-turn, at least, before the eggs are laid, hatched and the new weyrlings are taken to the Southern Continent - wouldn't they need to be old enough for their dragons to go between? I'd say closer to a turn. Jaxom is four.

Then Lessa brings the Weyrs forward.

Then seven turns pass - maybe even seven and a half - which would make Jaxom about eleven and a half. And naturally he would want to think of himself as "not-quite-twelve".
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 30 2012, 11:36 PM   #25
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Is it three turns before Ramoth rises? The Atlas of Pern timeline - which I've been using to pinpoint several events - says Lessa Impresses Ramoth in 2505, and then Ramoth rose in 2507?

EDIT: Wait, hang on. Lessa Impressed in early 2505 (Third Month, Twentieth Day) and Ramoth rose in late 2507 (Eleventh Month, First Day); which makes nearly three turns.

The Atlas places the Hatching and Trip to Southern in 2508 (Third Month, Ninth Day and Third Month, Twenty-Seventh Day*, respectively), and also Lessa's Ride (Third Month, Twenty-Eighth/Ninth Day), before jumping ahead to 2515 (Fourth Month, Fourth Turn) for Dragonquest - which is seven turns ahead; I wrote eight turns by accident when quickly reading through and noting it was the Eighth Turn of the Ninth Pass - which makes Jaxom just over ten turns (and thus F'lessan somewhere around seven; which suggests F'lar and Lessa conceived not long after her Ride?).

Of course, the Atlas timeline needs to be updated in a few places - after ATWOP and SOP, we now know all the Pass/Interval dates varied, and the first turn of the Ninth Pass should really be 2521 - but I think these dates are still pretty accurate.

*This does seem like quite an early trip for dragons so young - although Arith was able to go Between fairly young in Dragonsblood, but I doubt that's a common skill - but since there were a number of older dragons travelling with them - including Canth & Orth - it's likely that they were ferried between on the backs of the older dragons or something.

ANOTHER EDIT: I've added the conclusions of this entire thread to the Pern Wiki http://pern.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Inconsistencies; rewriting it into a single page that explains the reasoning behind the "revised timeline".

Last edited by Almaron; May 31 2012 at 05:28 AM.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 31 2012, 10:49 AM   #26
semantre
Dragonrider
Candidate
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern Series
Now Reading: Whatever I can get my hands on
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Regarding the trip to the past, I always assumed the young dragons and their new riders were ferried as passengers on adult dragons, in the same fashion that the support staff would have been. So I'd say it's perfectly safe to accept the Atlas timeframe between the hatching and the trip. I certainly don't blame Lessa for wanting Kylara gone ASAP.
semantre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 31 2012, 04:33 PM   #27
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Quote:
Originally Posted by semantre View Post
Regarding the trip to the past, I always assumed the young dragons and their new riders were ferried as passengers on adult dragons, in the same fashion that the support staff would have been. So I'd say it's perfectly safe to accept the Atlas timeframe between the hatching and the trip. I certainly don't blame Lessa for wanting Kylara gone ASAP.
And I think that was kind of the whole point--send them back in time to mature "faster" (at a normal rate, but ten years before they were born) so they could come forward again as adults with their own offspring. I just figured the adult dragons that went back (Canth, Orth, and any others, though it seems to imply those two were the only older males) ferried the weyrlings.
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 31 2012, 11:18 PM   #28
Eriflor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Gender: F
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

On the page where they're getting ready to take the 40 young dragons and riders south, it says "F'nor was to take his own wingriders to help train the weyrlings". So that's half a wing of experienced riders, plus T'bor and Orth and 32 new candidates for Pridith's future clutch.

Eriflor.
Eriflor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 15 2012, 07:59 PM   #29
Blue Rider 16
Senior Member
Dylanist
 
Blue Rider 16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Gender: M
Fan of: The Dragonriders of Pern
Now Reading: All The Weyrs of Pern
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

From Dragonflight, during the abortive battle with the Lords: "And the queen," he continued, "has risen to mate in her second year. Risen to mate and flown high and far"
I'd say that makes it possible for Jaxom to be born approximately three years before Threads started to fall, with F'lessan being born in the first year of the Pass (I think Lessa could still give birth to him in the remainder of the year if he's a late birthday, and considering the trouble she had birthing him, possibly a premature birth).
Thus in Dragonquest seven years later Jaxom is 11ish and F'lessan is 7ish, but they're only technically three Turns apart.

The real problem comes when you get to the Harper Hall trilogy: If Piemur is 9 or 10 Turns in Dragonsinger, then four Turns later, when Piemur is stated to be 14 Turns in Dragondrums it is the 11th Turn of the Pass, as stated in the Renegades of Pern at the chapter head. However, as stated in chapter 3 The White Dragon F'lessan Impressed two Turns before the 15th Turn, which makes the earliest he can Impress the 13th Turn--which is the exact Impression shown in Dragondrums! The only thing that sort of works if you ignore Renegades of Pern is for Dragonsinger to take place in the eighth Turn and for Piemur to be 9 Turns old which would mean it would be 5 Turns later that Piemur is 14, which would have F'lessan and Mirrim's Impressions in the 13th Turn which would then fit with the The White Dragon's date for F'lessan's Impression. Then to address Jaxom's Impression being a "Turn last spring" as mentioned in the 1st chapter of The White Dragon you simply have to think the 12th Turn listed is referring to Jaxom being 12 (as the book focuses so heavily on Jaxom, rather than it being the 12th Turn of the Pass)

The Harper Hall trilogy gives me headaches for dates in general though, one of the most annoying being the inconsistency of Zair's Hatching between Dragonquest and Dragonsinger with Dragonquest putting it before Canth's journey to the Red Star and Dragonsinger putting it definitely after. And Dragondrums requires a lot of finnagling to fit with The White Dragon.
__________________
D'vin, rider of brown Denth
Blue Rider 16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 15 2012, 08:14 PM   #30
Blue Rider 16
Senior Member
Dylanist
 
Blue Rider 16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Gender: M
Fan of: The Dragonriders of Pern
Now Reading: All The Weyrs of Pern
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

As for the whole AtWoP/DoP conflicts, there not really as bad as it seems at first glance.
For AtWoP: Aivas found in the 17 PP. Farli's journey to the Yokohoma is the shift to 19 PP. Then Amaranth's Impression in 20 PP and finally Robinton's death in 21 PP. So that makes the first half of DoP to be fairly accurate timing wise. There's then the problem of Readis' age by the end being 18 Turns. But I think SoP surprisingly gives the answer to that one: the Hurricane depicted in DoP happened in 29 PP. Thus, I'd say the easiest way to explain Readis' age is that there's a lot more off-screen time than we see throughout the DoP, similar to how RoP covered 17 Turns, DoP covered 12ish Turns it's just not stated as clearly as it was in RoP.
__________________
D'vin, rider of brown Denth
Blue Rider 16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 15 2012, 10:25 PM   #31
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Quote:
From Dragonflight, during the abortive battle with the Lords: "And the queen," he continued, "has risen to mate in her second year. Risen to mate and flown high and far"
I'd say that makes it possible for Jaxom to be born approximately three years before Threads started to fall, with F'lessan being born in the first year of the Pass (I think Lessa could still give birth to him in the remainder of the year if he's a late birthday, and considering the trouble she had birthing him, possibly a premature birth).
Thus in Dragonquest seven years later Jaxom is 11ish and F'lessan is 7ish, but they're only technically three Turns apart.
By the dates given in the Atlas, Jaxom should have just turned ten shortly before his trip to the Weyr (born on the Twentieth Day of the Third Month of 2505, and his trip to Benden Weyr takes place on the Ninth Day of the Fourth Month of 2515).

Quote:
The real problem comes when you get to the Harper Hall trilogy: If Piemur is 9 or 10 Turns in Dragonsinger, then four Turns later, when Piemur is stated to be 14 Turns in Dragondrums it is the 11th Turn of the Pass, as stated in the Renegades of Pern at the chapter head. However, as stated in chapter 3 The White Dragon F'lessan Impressed two Turns before the 15th Turn, which makes the earliest he can Impress the 13th Turn--which is the exact Impression shown in Dragondrums! The only thing that sort of works if you ignore Renegades of Pern is for Dragonsinger to take place in the eighth Turn and for Piemur to be 9 Turns old which would mean it would be 5 Turns later that Piemur is 14, which would have F'lessan and Mirrim's Impressions in the 13th Turn which would then fit with the The White Dragon's date for F'lessan's Impression. Then to address Jaxom's Impression being a "Turn last spring" as mentioned in the 1st chapter of The White Dragon you simply have to think the 12th Turn listed is referring to Jaxom being 12 (as the book focuses so heavily on Jaxom, rather than it being the 12th Turn of the Pass)
Only problem is it's not really possible to change ROP's dates; ROP depicts Piemur in the south at the same time as Jayge searching for Aramina; in 12PP, and then three years later he discovers them and a young Readis while heading overland to Jaxom and Sharra. To shift that forward not only messes up the dates in all subsequent books (and could affect Readis' age again), but it also means WD needs to be shifted forward another two years so that Jaxom is in the south, which creates the same inconsistencies all over again. Better to treat WD's contradicting dates (since there's a few of them; see the link) as mistakes - as I suggested here; http://pern.wikia.com/wiki/Inconsist...nconsistencies.

From what I've noticed about these date mix-ups, I think when Anne McCaffrey was writing WD, she thought the previous books had taken place in 10PP, when they had really taken place in 8PP. Then, when she wrote DD, she got the date right (setting DD in 11PP; three years (not four) after DQ's date of 8PP), but failed to notice the mistake she'd made in WD and as such this affected the dating in subsequent books.

When is Piemur said to be nine turns? DD says he's fourteen, but has been at the Hall for five turns; perhaps that's what you were thinking of? It also says it's been three turns since Dragonsinger.

Quote:
As for the whole AtWoP/DoP conflicts, there not really as bad as it seems at first glance.
For AtWoP: Aivas found in the 17 PP. Farli's journey to the Yokohoma is the shift to 19 PP. Then Amaranth's Impression in 20 PP and finally Robinton's death in 21 PP. So that makes the first half of DoP to be fairly accurate timing wise. There's then the problem of Readis' age by the end being 18 Turns. But I think SoP surprisingly gives the answer to that one: the Hurricane depicted in DoP happened in 29 PP. Thus, I'd say the easiest way to explain Readis' age is that there's a lot more off-screen time than we see throughout the DoP, similar to how RoP covered 17 Turns, DoP covered 12ish Turns it's just not stated as clearly as it was in RoP.
The problem with ATWOP I mentioned is that the chapter Farli travels to the Red Star in opens with "21PP; Two Turns Later". Either way, like we've both said, it's a mistake and DOP has the right dates.

The hurricane happened in 29PP? Well, that would definitely solve most of the problems with Readis' age (and possibly K'van's; whose age is being discussed in another thread)...where is that mentioned in SOP (haven't managed to do an analysis of that one yet)?

EDIT: Took another look at my notes from DOP, and the last date given in that is one that refers to there being four hundred students at Landing three turns after Robinton's death. It's not clear how much time passes during the next few chapters, so I guess we can assume that the date given was only there to describe how quickly Landing's student size grew, and that the rest of the story took place in 29PP, which makes Readis sixteen instead of eighteen (although it's worth noting he would have been eighteen if he was seven in 17PP, as listed in DOP as opposed to the accurate five turns listed in ATWOP), but that's still pretty close! Good spotting! I'll have to rewrite the timeline on the wiki to suit that, but that's definitely dealt with the Readis problem!

Last edited by Almaron; Jun 15 2012 at 11:08 PM.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 17 2012, 03:54 PM   #32
Blue Rider 16
Senior Member
Dylanist
 
Blue Rider 16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Gender: M
Fan of: The Dragonriders of Pern
Now Reading: All The Weyrs of Pern
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

That's weird with ATWOP. My copy has Chapter 7 in which Farli travels to the Yokohoma to have the chapter subheading of Present Pass 19 on page 137. Then Chapter 11 in which Amaranth hatches has the chapter subheading of Present Pass 20 on page 238. It then doesn't mention a Present Pass 21 but it's easy to assume that from Chapter 11 to Chapter 20 brings it into Present Pass 21. Unfortunately I don't know whether I have the American or British edition.
__________________
D'vin, rider of brown Denth
Blue Rider 16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 17 2012, 06:43 PM   #33
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

In DSo Menolly is surprised that Piemur, who looks about eleven, has already been an apprentice for so long. That's the only specifics we get regarding his age.
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 17 2012, 09:46 PM   #34
Almaron
Weyr Harper
 
Almaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Zealand
Gender: M
Fan of: White Dragon - Yay Ruth!
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

Quote:
That's weird with ATWOP. My copy has Chapter 7 in which Farli travels to the Yokohoma to have the chapter subheading of Present Pass 19 on page 137. Then Chapter 11 in which Amaranth hatches has the chapter subheading of Present Pass 20 on page 238. It then doesn't mention a Present Pass 21 but it's easy to assume that from Chapter 11 to Chapter 20 brings it into Present Pass 21. Unfortunately I don't know whether I have the American or British edition.
Must be a misprint in my edition then (which I suppose would be British/NZ). Good to know!

Argh, just noticed something else...DD has F'lessan Impressing in 11PP, which would make him somewhere near ten turns. However, TSD states twelve turns is the minimum age for Impression. Once again, it's that confusing period of time between Dragonquest and the White Dragon that messes everything specifically F'lessan and Jaxom's ages, and Path's first rising).

I've gone over it several times, and there's not really a way to fix it: DQ takes place in 8PP, but WD suggests DQ took place in 10PP, with F'lessan and Mirrim Impressing in 13PP (and also Piemur going south), and Robinton sailing south to meet with Toric. ROP places Piemur in the south in 11PP, and places Robinton's meeting with Toric in 12PP. At the same time, Thella goes after Aramina on land, until Jayge rescues her and flees in 13PP. This can't be split up - moving Aramina's scenes back and Piemur's forwards - as both scenes happen during the same chapters, and also because Hamian talks about Giron nearly accompanying him south in 11PP (plus, Path is flying in a wing in TGWHD; meaning Piemur has already been in the south for a few turns). In addition to this, since Readis is five in ATWOP (17PP, although he could really only be four), Aramina can't be south any sooner than 13PP.

The closest way to mixing these together has DQ taking place in 10PP, Ruth's flight, F'lessan and Mirrim's Impressions, Piemur's trip south, Robinton and Menolly's trip south and Aramina's story in 12PP (which is an incredibly short amount of time, and during which we're supposed to have Path becoming old enough to fly in a wing!), then WD in 15PP. This still doesn't quite solve the age problems - F'lessan becomes eleven turns, and Path takes three years to rise - but they can't be shifted any further without affecting how old Readis is by ATWOP - since Piemur was in the south before and during Aramina's part of the story.

In short, it's ridiculous, and I guess we just acknowledge this as a big mistake, and assume in story that F'lessan got allowed to Impress early for some reason (although I might check and see if the minimum age changed over time...MHOP seems to suggest eleven turns is considered too young...perhaps there were less candidates that turn for some reason), and that Path was a late riser (which we know can happen).

Here's my rectified timeline:
2505-2508AL/2518-2521AAT (1PP) - Events of Dragonflight.
2515AL/2529AAT (8PP) - Events of Dragonquest, Dragonsong and Dragonsinger.
2517AL/2531AAT (10PP) - Jaxom flies Ruth for the first time.
2518AL/2532AAT (11PP) - Events of Dragondrums.
2519AL/2533AAT (12PP) - Events of The Girl Who Heard Dragons.
2523AL/2537AAT (15PP) - Events of The White Dragon.
2525AL/2539AAT (17PP) - Discovery of Aivas.
2529AL/2543AAT (21PP) - Completion of Project Overkill; Death of Masterharper Robinton.
2537AL/2551AAT (29PP) - Readis establishes Rubicon River Hold (incorrectly listed as Kahrain Hold)
2539AL/2553AAT (31PP) - Events of The Skies of Pern.

Last edited by Almaron; Jun 17 2012 at 10:17 PM.
Almaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 18 2012, 12:30 AM   #35
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

So long as you have six-nine months between Mirrim Impressing in 11pp and her appearance (also as a weyrling, presumably) in TGWHD, Path should be fine fyling at that age. We can treat the use of the word Wing as an informal word for the group of dragons they're all in at that time (or that T'gellan has already insisted on having her with him later...) rather than an official figthing-Wing Wing
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20 2012, 03:43 PM   #36
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

I have no access to books or anything at the moment, but am I recalling some reference to F'lessan Impressing a bit younger than was normal? Or am I getting it muddled with F'nor (who was DEFINITELY a bit on the young side, but given the limited number of clutches at the time, might not have had a chance otherwise.)
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 20 2012, 06:36 PM   #37
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

In MHoP, F'nor Impresses at age ten, but I pretty much ignore most of that book when it comes to canon.
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 21 2012, 04:05 AM   #38
Kath
Starsmith


Weyrwoman
 
Kath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oop North

Fan of: Moreta
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

F'nor definitely Impressed early. F'lessan's age isn't extremely young, but The Imrpession notes that only two of the other boys his age had been chosen to stand as candidates - implying that not everyone gets a free shot at the eggs, and that as far as the younger boys go, they give the best prospects the first chances.
Kath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 22 2012, 12:44 PM   #39
Eriflor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Gender: F
Default Re: ATWOP/DOP oddities

At K'van's Impression, there were 72 candidates and only 40 eggs, and the riders were arguing about whether some of the youngest should be kept back, or some of those who'd stood several times and not 'taken' should be eliminated. Lessa overruled them on that occasion.

Eriflor.
Eriflor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

A Meeting of Minds forum owned by Cheryl B. Miller.
All references to worlds and characters based on Anne McCaffrey’s fiction are copyright © Anne McCaffrey 1967-2008, all rights reserved, and used by permission of the author.