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Old Dec 7 2009, 09:56 PM   #1
Almaron
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Default The minor holds of Southern

Reading through the more recent Pern books, I can't help but be annoyed that the maps appear to be quite out of date. All of them still list Paradise River and Southern as minor holds, as well as showing Southern Weyr in the original place, despite it being moved. This is very incorrect; by the time of SOP, Toric remarks that there are 24 holds that tithe to him. Plus, holders along the Jordan coast are rescued from many holdings.

I'm going to take a vague guess at the holds we know exist, and see what I can find:

SOUTHERN HOLDS (AND WESTERN CONTINENT):
Island River (Built on the site of Boca River Stake)
Roma Hold (Presumably re-established by Hamian by SOP-DLG2)
Central Hold
Big Lagoon Hold
Great Bay Hold
Seminole Hold
Largo Hold (This and Seminole led by Hosbon, may be the same hold)
Karachi (Mining camp, set up by Hamian)

We can also assume that Toric re-established the stakes under his control. This could mean that Yukon, Suweto, and Drake's Lake all have settlements. This brings his total so far up to 11.

Something that is confusing is the extent of Toric's holding. I am unsure whether or not he holds Ierne. If he does, that would make another four holds for each settlement on the island. Also, there were eight half-built holds that were forcibly stopped by the Weyrleaders in DOP, Toric may have eventually taken them back, or possibly they were set up by independent holders. Each of these holds are east of the Island River; One is Thessaly, one is far east of Drake's Lake, Three are along the coast, so this could include Sadrid or possibly even the Malay River, and Three inland. Presumably, because only two of the stakes were specifically named in DOP, the rest were all built on new grounds.

As for Macedonia & Cathay, these appear to be separate from Toric's Southern. Despite all lands east of the Rubicon being allocated to riders, and the west to holders, this seems to have been relaxed by SOP, as Honshu is held by a rider, despite being in the west, and there are plenty of holders in the east. Maybe it means that if a rider and a holder fight for land, the rider will ultimately win. Perhaps Macedonia and Cathay will just be filled with small holds, both riders and holders, beholden to no-one.

I can't find the page, but I seem to remember it being said that Macedonia didn't have many (if any) coastal settlements at the time of the fireball, which would mean Sadrid is empty. According to M'rand and Lessa, Cathay has not got many settlements, but there's "more that there were", and this land will soon be taken. M'rand and Pilgra's proposed Weyrhold, judging by their descriptions, is at Malay River Stake. Xanadu is being planned as a Ninth Weyr (ATWOP), similar to that at Monaco Bay, but since the Weyrs will not be needed very soon, it may become a settlement, or it may already be a camp for injured dragons, similar to what Southern once was.

As for Mexico/Maori Lake, I don't know if this is settled.

EASTERN LAND:

Araby is mostly stony wastes, with some forests towards the water. If anyone holds here, it will be either the holdless wandering the wastes, where the Tuareg camps once were, or holders setting up cotholds by the seas, or in the forests. One known holding is Readis' Dolphin Hall, located at the Rubicon River (Despite being named "Kahrain Hold" in DOP, the geography is wrong, and it is listed as "Rubicon River Hold" in the DLG, presumably the proper name).

Paradise River has grown considerably since its arrival, and may be considered a Major Hold. According to the DLG, there is also Paradise River Seahold, run by Alemi, and South Bend Hold, located further inland (and it notes that a new hold is being built nearby). Interestingly, in SOP, the name list at the beginning lists Jayge as Lord Holder of Paradise River and Benini, a hold located in Jordan Province. It is possible that Jayge holds both Kahrain and Jordan, and possibly Araby too. If this land has an overall name is unknown, but it is more likely that they will use the old names and regions.

And of course, Cove Hold exists as a minor holding at the tip of Kahrain. It would seem that they have added an observatory by SOP, although I may need to check that again.

In Jordan, not only is there Landing (Mentioned as being a sort of neutral land), but Monaco Bay Weyr and SeaHold, and Cardiff is shown as being full of herdbeasts. There is also a dam located somewhere along the Jordan River, that Fandarel repairs and sets up to power Landing in ATWOP. Sunrise Cliff SeaHold is (presumably) located in the small bay almost due south of the impact. We can assume that the other holds in the area will be set up eventually, so Calusa, Amsterdam, Bavaria, Milan, Bordeax, Cambridge, Killarney, Vienna and Oslo should all be set up soon.

Okay, that's what I have so far. I plan to make a map of Pern to put this all on, so anyone can use it, but that's not finished yet. A question I have is what happened to Denol, and does anyone have any idea as to where any other potential hold sites could be? Remember, Southern Weyr relocated to somewhere inland, (possibly near Drake's Lake?) presumably un-named, as they have kept "Southern" as their title.

EDIT: There is also the possibility that holds will be created with the name of the province, e.g. Jordan Hold, Araby Hold, etc.

I may also need to make a list of Northern Minor holds too, including Pierie, a hold in Boll seen in MHOP, or Bent Ridge, Grethel, Saluda and Berea, all Nerat Holds in danger in SOP, as well as Loscar, a hold sheltered by the High Shoals (only marked on the Atlas, and supposedly destroyed by the tsunami), and even the hold listed as "Last Hold", sometimes mis-listed as Lost Hold, but named in BB as Waterhole Hold.

Last edited by Almaron; Dec 8 2009 at 04:56 AM.
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Old Dec 8 2009, 05:57 AM   #2
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

As for Cove Hold, it been there before just expanded, after they find the stuff storied in the Katherine's Caves, RoP. SoP and there are a buch of smaller on told about in SoP too.

Also on the thing on minor holds Wide Bay Hold, Tag can see ship come in and out, but his hall is were he can't tell if the watchdragon has gone.
Quote:
Largo Hold (This and Seminole led by Hosbon, may be the same hold)
it at the tip and Seminole is a bit away, I do have the book, just can't read for long,

Also remember that Honshu is a Weyrhold, with both weyrfolks and holder, and crafters there too.
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Old Dec 8 2009, 07:28 PM   #3
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

[QUOTE=GinnyStar;155678]


Also on the thing on minor holds Wide Bay Hold, Tag can see ship come in and out, but his hall is were he can't tell if the watchdragon has gone.


QUOTE]

Wide Bay Hold and the Print Hall were in the North, I believe, somewhere within Keroon territory (Lord Kashman).

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Old Dec 9 2009, 03:22 AM   #4
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

[QUOTE=Eriflor;155730]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GinnyStar View Post


Also on the thing on minor holds Wide Bay Hold, Tag can see ship come in and out, but his hall is were he can't tell if the watchdragon has gone.


QUOTE]

Wide Bay Hold and the Print Hall were in the North, I believe, somewhere within Keroon territory (Lord Kashman).

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I been trying to see were in the world that one is, have an idea that if Tag hall in the northen part of the sea hold, the dock only a road over, and it where he can't tell if the watchdragon pair has left for Landing in SoP.
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Old Dec 14 2009, 06:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

Found another two holds: Mountain Rift Hold and Dry Hold, both located in the eastern part of Delta. Briefly mentioned in ROP. So, 13 of Toric's 24 now known?

I also had another look at ATWOP for the dam, it says that the dam is built over the SE end of a man-made lake (a long finger, inbetween two ridges), in the hills nearby Landing. If this is the Jordan River, it is odd, because (unless the river flows inland) the water flow should be heading towards the sea, meaning that the dam should be on the NW side. Judging by the maps from the Atlas, I think it is located on the river inbetween Bordeaux and Vienna, although closer to Bordeaux.

EDIT: Of cousre, it could just be near Amsterdam, but I thought that seemed unlikely, as someone would have seen it, plus it would clash with the cliffs and beaches shown in the Atlas. Although further away from Landing, further up Jordan is mostly cliff, and better suited for the dam in my opinion.

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Old Dec 15 2009, 01:07 AM   #6
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

From what I remember Toric does hold the island, even tho the people on it are trying to claim it. It was given to Toric & can not be taken by someone else. Of course Toric has to find a way to take control of the island. I can not right now tell you which book it was mentioned in. I think it was SOP.
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Old Dec 15 2009, 03:12 AM   #7
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

Quote:
Originally Posted by mawra View Post
From what I remember Toric does hold the island, even tho the people on it are trying to claim it. It was given to Toric & can not be taken by someone else. Of course Toric has to find a way to take control of the island. I can not right now tell you which book it was mentioned in. I think it was SOP.
All the Wyers of Pern, RoP, and DoP I think, of the top of head Maw.
SoP: pg 183 and 193 USA HB edition
Nerat the Keys and and Long Beach at the head of the Nerat River Waneta another Minor one which the Nerat River might food.
Sunrise Clift Sea Hold, in Monaco Bay Weyr
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Old Dec 16 2009, 06:27 PM   #8
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

Yep, you're right. I found the quote, it's in ATWOP, when they are meeting to discuss Oterel's successor. Someone says that Ierne is Toric's, and Denol had no right to claim it.

17 holds out of 24 known then (Assuming Toric resettled the stakes)?
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Old Dec 19 2009, 02:42 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Almaron View Post
Yep, you're right. I found the quote, it's in ATWOP, when they are meeting to discuss Oterel's successor. Someone says that Ierne is Toric's, and Denol had no right to claim it.

17 holds out of 24 known then (Assuming Toric resettled the stakes)?
Big Lagoon and Great Bay along with Roma Pg 192 DLGP2
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Old May 19 2010, 12:32 AM   #10
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almaron View Post
Yep, you're right. I found the quote, it's in ATWOP, when they are meeting to discuss Oterel's successor. Someone says that Ierne is Toric's, and Denol had no right to claim it.

17 holds out of 24 known then (Assuming Toric resettled the stakes)?
I don't think Toric was resettling the old stake-holds. He was Holding at Southern Hold for 16 turns before Landing was rediscovered, and was solely concerned with grabbing as much territory as he could. He did this by settling newly-arrived families in small holds along the sea-coast and at strategic points along defendable borders, probably keeping a few larger holds for his own children, sisters and brothers. The locations and names of the original stake-holds were forgotten until the shuttles were rediscovered.

Having settled the territory west and south of his main Hold, Toric sent Piemur out to survey the unknown lands to the east, which he never got a chance to claim before he made the agreement with F'lar and Lessa. At that time Big Island (formerly Ierne) was definitely part of his territory.

When he finally got to see the original maps of the south, his main concern was that there was so much more land he could have had. He wasn't interested in the history of the colony. It was mainly the Weyrs and eastern holders who resurrected the old stake-names and regions.

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Old May 19 2010, 04:09 AM   #11
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

It's in SOP that he says he has 24 Holds, so he could have settled them by this point (And it's likely too, as we know he has settlements at a good number of the stakes).
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Old May 19 2010, 11:59 PM   #12
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

What I mean is, he's just settling people in smallish holds where they'll do him the most good. Some of the holds may coincide roughly with the original colonists' stake-holds (since in both cases they'd be located on the best land in a given area), but not by any intention of Toric's. Though he or the tenant may decide to use the old name if known (e.g. Largo is mentioned as Hosbon's hold in Skies of Pern).

The dragonriders would use the original names, since they do have the old maps and might not have Toric's latest.
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Old May 20 2010, 03:08 PM   #13
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

It is likely that some of Toric's holds were situated in or near the original stakeholds for the same reasons that the settlers put them there - sources of water, near the coast, etc.
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Old Aug 9 2010, 09:26 AM   #14
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

So what was west of Ierne?

And didn't the settlers of Ierne gain their independence from Toric?
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Old Aug 9 2010, 10:47 AM   #15
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

Yes, Ierne was declared independent in, I think, SoP, because they met the charter requirements for making a land claim. It was one of those last-straw things for Toric reguarding the behavior of the Weyrs, since the wouldn't help him reclaim it.
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Old Aug 9 2010, 03:30 PM   #16
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

All I can recall about what's west of Ierne is that it's a desert.
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Old Aug 10 2010, 02:08 AM   #17
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

According to this map in the Pern Museum, Cibola stake would be west of Ierne:
http://www.agriphoto.nl/pma/Maps%20a...003_DDaUS.html

The only other details I can find on any of the book maps is markings for a mountain range along the eastern edge of that province. Depending on weather patterns on Pern, that could certainly lead to a desert formation if the mountains are blocking rainfall from reaching the rest of the area.

However, Cibola must not be strictly desert, because Nabhi Nabol demanded it as payment for his ultimately fatal shuttle flight. He wasn't given it, but he wanted the province - which is quite sizable, but I would think he wouldn't ask for an area that couldn't be productive?

Apologies if this happens to double-post. I can't tell if my browser ate my first attempt or not!
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Old Aug 10 2010, 02:46 AM   #18
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http://www.agriphoto.nl/pma/Maps%20a...008_SoPUS.html
From the Skies of Pern, show rivers in east part that don't show up on the other maps, I think they show in the DLGP and also Pern International Day line is the big river by Sunrise Cliff Sea Hold, they are in Monaco Bay Weyr for the comment Jouneyman Fisherman Seaholder said in the book for the Masterfisherman well east of here. http://books.google.com/books?id=mno...unrise&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=mno...Curran&f=false Page 180

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Old Aug 10 2010, 07:59 AM   #19
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

For my purposes, Cibola is going to have a fertile coastal strip.
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Old Aug 10 2010, 10:57 AM   #20
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

Most of the fan maps show at least the coast as green, so I think that's a safe bet.
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Old Aug 10 2010, 08:34 PM   #21
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

Well, fan maps are of debatable accuracy. I've seen one or two that list the areas behind the Southern mountain ranges as being fertile land, reserved for the Dragonriders, when in the Atlas and most other sources it's a snowy waste.

Has anyone ever tried making a grand unified map of Pern, mixing together everything we know about it?
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Old Aug 11 2010, 03:00 PM   #22
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

I'm guessing that the grubs that protected most of the South didn't get into Cibola (due to the wide sea inlet running inland from Great Bay), so it would have been Thread-scored at the time of DQ (after 7 turns of Threadfall), hence a desert.

Until the first Threadfall after landing, Cibola would have been similar to the rest of the South, and might not have received heavy falls at the time Nabol claimed it. (ISTR it was mentioned somewhere in DQ that the South doesn't get the heavy, sustained Falls they have in the North.) There would have to be some viable land at least, or he wouldn't have wanted it.

The Atlas shows a mountainous area where Nabol could have built a cave-hold (he was a mining engineer) and perhaps used hydroponics for some of his food supply, and he could have protected a small area with flamethrowers. I'm guessing he wanted to be as far from the colony leaders as possible, and would have attracted other settlers who felt the same way. Moot point, since he eventually opted for Big Island (future Ista).

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Old Aug 12 2010, 01:02 AM   #23
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriflor View Post
I'm guessing that the grubs that protected most of the South didn't get into Cibola (due to the wide sea inlet running inland from Great Bay), so it would have been Thread-scored at the time of DQ (after 7 turns of Threadfall), hence a desert.

Until the first Threadfall after landing, Cibola would have been similar to the rest of the South, and might not have received heavy falls at the time Nabol claimed it. (ISTR it was mentioned somewhere in DQ that the South doesn't get the heavy, sustained Falls they have in the North.) There would have to be some viable land at least, or he wouldn't have wanted it.

The Atlas shows a mountainous area where Nabol could have built a cave-hold (he was a mining engineer) and perhaps used hydroponics for some of his food supply, and he could have protected a small area with flamethrowers. I'm guessing he wanted to be as far from the colony leaders as possible, and would have attracted other settlers who felt the same way. Moot point, since he eventually opted for Big Island (future Ista).

Eriflor.
http://www.agriphoto.nl/pma/Maps%20a...005_DDcUS.html
Here a copy of the Threadfall charts, there was a note about the grubs in Dragonseye/Red Star Rising about the crawling rate of the grubs heading east of the srub land east of Landing being slowed down, also if there is greens and stuff the larvae of the grubs could cross via wheries and other down there. http://books.google.com/books?id=ve4...0grubs&f=false
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Old Aug 12 2010, 12:42 PM   #24
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

Cibola may have been /barren/ if Threadscored, but that would not have made it a desert - a desert is a climate-created occurance, which requires a general deficit in precipitation. Threadfall has nothing to do with that classification.

Besides, if the grubs crossed to the northern continent, which has a much larger span of water between it and the southern one, Cibola surely would have ended up with grubs by the 9th Pass, too. Recall that the Masterherded and Masterfarmer had both been eradicating them on the northern continent wherever they were found, prior to F'lar showing their worth. So Cibola would, logically, have grubs.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 01:33 PM   #25
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

I thought trees promote precipitation. If the tree cover is lost through thread, then wouldn't the rainfall decrease, possibly to desert retaining level?
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Old Aug 12 2010, 02:34 PM   #26
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

Trees do promote rainfall, but given the natural reforestation that occured on Pern repeatedly, if Cibola was in good ecological health at the time of Landing, one would assume that there was no significant lack of rainfall there, and there has been no indication of significant climate shifts anywhere on Pern in the 2500 years that the books span.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 02:58 PM   #27
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Default Re: The minor holds of Southern

Here are the references I could find to deserts on the southern continent:

DQ, pg 66-67 of US release(?):
Quote:
"You can see how much T'bor has made out of Southern Weyr in the Turns he's been Weyrleader here," Brekke went on.
F'nor nodded, honestly impressed. "Did he ever complete the exploration of the southern continent?" He couldn't recall any report on the matter coming in to Benden Weyr.
"I don't think so. The deserts to the west are terrible. One or two riders got curious but the winds turned them back. And eastward, there's just ocean. It probably extends right around to the desert. This is the bottom of the earth, you know."
From WD, pg 316, US release?
Quote:
"I know that you have sent out exploring teams. How far have they actually penetrated?"
"With the help of D'ram's dragonriders," Toric said as Robinton noticed how keenly he watched F'lar's face to see if this unexpected assistance was known to Benden, "we have extened out knowledge of the terrain to the foot of the Western Range."
"That far?" the bronze rider appeared surprised and perhaps a trifle alarmed.
Robinton knew from that auspiciously discovered map that, while the area from the sea to the Western Range was immense, it was but a small segment of the total area of the Southern Continent.
"And, of course, Piemur reached the Great Desert Bay to the west," Toric was saying.
Based on the maps from Dragonsdawn, The 'Western Barrier Range' is the west end of the southern mountain range. Toric is probably referencing the Great Bay (which is what Ierne Island is located within) as Piemur's limit of exploration. Piemur, without crossing the bay (which is pretty big) would probably not have been able to see Cibola and determine what its nature was.

Looking at the Dolphins of Pern map, there's a lot of Pern that is completely unmentioned in the books. O.O There's a lot of land west of Cibola, that probably has never been explored. I don't remember how the ship captains who sailed around the southern continent described the land they passed, and can't find the reference right now.
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Old Aug 12 2010, 11:31 PM   #28
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Cibola may have been /barren/ if Threadscored, but that would not have made it a desert - a desert is a climate-created occurance, which requires a general deficit in precipitation. Threadfall has nothing to do with that classification.
It would be relatively barren compared to the grub-protected areas to the east, and in an area as big as the whole Southern continent, there would have been variations in climate.

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Besides, if the grubs crossed to the northern continent, which has a much larger span of water between it and the southern one, Cibola surely would have ended up with grubs by the 9th Pass, too. Recall that the Masterherded and Masterfarmer had both been eradicating them on the northern continent wherever they were found, prior to F'lar showing their worth. So Cibola would, logically, have grubs.
The grubs didn't go north on their own. The scientists discovered Tubberman's experiment after he was killed, and would have taken a batch of the grubs to the North for further investigation and propagation.
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Old Aug 13 2010, 01:43 AM   #29
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It would be relatively barren compared to the grub-protected areas to the east, and in an area as big as the whole Southern continent, there would have been variations in climate.



The grubs didn't go north on their own. The scientists discovered Tubberman's experiment after he was killed, and would have taken a batch of the grubs to the North for further investigation and propagation.
It tell that in DD, that they were for a test patch.http://books.google.com/books?ei=-cp...20test&f=false also more grub than worm. http://books.google.com/books?id=RuL...rne%20&f=false In here is were they planted the gubs. CoP: Second Weyr

I know it was after WD but too tired to hunt for now hope this information is help full.
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Old Aug 13 2010, 10:48 AM   #30
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I don't argue that there are variations in climate, but Threadscored land wouldn't inherently be a desert. That was my point. The climate could certainly cause it to be a desert, but Threadfall would not.
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Old Aug 17 2010, 07:49 AM   #31
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Don't I remember grubs having some sort of harvestable egg sac - which would indicate an airborne part of their life cycle. The maps are indeterminate about how wide the "Great Bay" is and how much of it is taken up by Ierne Island - so they could possibly have crossed the bay themselves.

Just as many Earth ecosystems have adapted to fire, I would expect Pern's ecosystems to adapt to thread.
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Old Aug 17 2010, 10:10 AM   #32
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Don't I remember grubs having some sort of harvestable egg sac - which would indicate an airborne part of their life cycle. The maps are indeterminate about how wide the "Great Bay" is and how much of it is taken up by Ierne Island - so they could possibly have crossed the bay themselves.

Just as many Earth ecosystems have adapted to fire, I would expect Pern's ecosystems to adapt to thread.
Yes, in DQ, F'lar has some riders time it to go back to the fall to gather the sacs. They look in the spring to find the ones that "aren't there", and gather those in the previous fall. They use them on some of the forest area.

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Old Aug 17 2010, 10:12 AM   #33
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I don't argue that there are variations in climate, but Threadscored land wouldn't inherently be a desert. That was my point. The climate could certainly cause it to be a desert, but Threadfall would not.

I think they are mentioning a cycle where the Thread causes less vegetation, which causes less moisture to be retained, which causes less rainfall, which causes less vegetation, ...

If you look at areas of the Amazon, where there has been clear cutting, there is less rainfall in those areas now, than before they were cut.

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Old Aug 17 2010, 02:00 PM   #34
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Whatever the cause, the land west of Big Island (formerly Ierne) is described as desert in the Ninth Pass.
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Old Aug 18 2010, 03:22 PM   #35
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Whatever the cause, the land west of Big Island (formerly Ierne) is described as desert in the Ninth Pass.
Source?
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Old Aug 19 2010, 02:41 PM   #36
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Source?
I haven't found it yet, but I know I've read it somewhere during the past week, in either DQ, HD, or RoP.

And in Chapter XXI of The White Dragon Toric mentions that Piemur "reached the Great Desert Bay in the west" while exploring for Toric. Since Toric claimed the east side of the bay (and Big Island), that suggests that the west side of the bay is desert --- but that's not the reference I'm looking for.

Eriflor.
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Old Aug 19 2010, 02:53 PM   #37
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Chapter IV of DQ.

Quote:
"You can see how much T'bor has made out of Southern Weyr in the Turns he's been Weyrleader here," Brekke went on.
F'nor nodded, honestly impressed. "Did he ever complete the exploration of the southern continent?" He couldn't recall any report on the matter coming in to Benden Weyr.
"I don't think so. The deserts to the west are terrible. One or two riders got curious but the winds turned them back. And eastward, there's just ocean. It probably extends right around to the desert. This is the bottom of the earth, you know."
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Old Aug 19 2010, 06:52 PM   #38
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Seeing as I quoted that passage several posts back, and the other one about the Great Desert Bay, you haven't said anything new on that front. My point is, Brekke doesn't say that anyone has crossed the bay and passed Big Island/Ierne Island, and when Toric speaks with F'lar about it, he also doesn't specify which side of the bay the desert is on. So there is no reason, in those two quotes, to say the referenced desert has to be across at Cibola, and not on the east side of the bay, or even be Big Island itself.

I'm not saying Cibola can't be a desert in the 9th Pass, I just don't see anything in the books that says it has to be one, especially given that in DDawn is was suggested that Cibola was prime real estate. I always got the impression that Toric didn't know there was anything on the other side of the bay, or he would have claimed it - and he didn't. Toric wasn't picky about the kind of land he claimed.

Last edited by semantre; Aug 19 2010 at 07:04 PM. Reason: rephrased my point
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Old Aug 20 2010, 02:32 PM   #39
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So all we can say about Cibola is that it was a desirable property at the time of the original settlement, and it MAY have been a desert with violent winds during the Ninth Pass.
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Old Aug 20 2010, 06:49 PM   #40
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Pretty much. I'd say it's open to interpretation by anyone writing fanfic to go whichever way without contradicting canon.
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