A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum  

Go Back   A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum > The Anne McCaffrey Collection > Dragonriders of Pern

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Apr 16 2009, 06:31 AM   #41
Old Hippie
Inactive
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kansas
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern
Now Reading: Mutineer's Moon
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

I remember in DD that when the colonist landed they noticed that the plants had a blueish cast to it. This would seem to indicate that blue would be an easy color to get. Wa-La! Kids with blue grass stains! and maybe a reintroduction to Earth's fabled "Bluejeans"
Old Hippie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 16 2009, 05:25 PM   #42
P'ter
Crafter

Craftmaster
 
P'ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wolverhampton
Gender: M
Fan of: Favorite?
Now Reading: avidly
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

"I love Brownie with the light blue jeans."
__________________
"Truth is stranger than fiction: fiction has to make sense." Leo Rosten.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
C. S. Lewis

"I find television very educational. Whenever somebody switches it on I go in the other room and read a book." (attributed to Groucho Marx)

The Pedants are revolting! (against bad grammar)
P'ter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20 2009, 10:57 AM   #43
Emeraldrose
Holder
Drudge
 
Emeraldrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Tennessee
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders Series
Now Reading: The Great Hunt Robert Jordan
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

The DragonLovers Guide has some pictures of various holds with different styles. The heavy Knitted sweaters of Tillek The more medieval dresses at Fort Hold and the re invention of the Bikini. Also the desert wear for Igen ? too lazy to pull the book...
I thought that the healers green was after AIVIS or a reference to earth's scrubs...
I think that the practical clothing for dragonriding or farming or running would take precedence. Jeans and shirts (pants and tunics) The colorful clothing and the silks,satins etc would be for gathers....Velvet,furs etc also for gather wear and special occasion....
Emeraldrose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 20 2009, 06:53 PM   #44
P'ter
Crafter

Craftmaster
 
P'ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wolverhampton
Gender: M
Fan of: Favorite?
Now Reading: avidly
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Green for medical wear was an mid twentieth century thing. Before that doctors wore white coats on the wards and white gowns/hats/masks in theatres. The green was a later attempt to reduce (eye)strain as green was supposed to be a relaxing colour.

As a side line; in the early days of medical dramas on b/w telly large expanses of white bed sheets were far too stark for the camera lenses to cope. So, in England at least, the bed linen was all yellow. And the makeup involved all sorts of joke colours too.
__________________
"Truth is stranger than fiction: fiction has to make sense." Leo Rosten.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
C. S. Lewis

"I find television very educational. Whenever somebody switches it on I go in the other room and read a book." (attributed to Groucho Marx)

The Pedants are revolting! (against bad grammar)
P'ter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 27 2009, 12:29 PM   #45
Weyrlady
Dragonrider
Weyrling
 
Weyrlady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sedona, Arizona USA
Gender: F
Fan of: DroP/Canth fangirl
Now Reading: Dragonfly in Amber by Diana Gabaldon
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by P'ter View Post
Green for medical wear was an mid twentieth century thing. Before that doctors wore white coats on the wards and white gowns/hats/masks in theatres. The green was a later attempt to reduce (eye)strain as green was supposed to be a relaxing colour.

As a side line; in the early days of medical dramas on b/w telly large expanses of white bed sheets were far too stark for the camera lenses to cope. So, in England at least, the bed linen was all yellow. And the makeup involved all sorts of joke colours too.


Then I have a question: where did the wild flowery caps/bandanas that surgeons wear in the OR come from? (Think Grey's Anatomy, and, real life.) Veterinary surgeons do this, too.
Weyrlady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 27 2009, 03:21 PM   #46
P'ter
Crafter

Craftmaster
 
P'ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wolverhampton
Gender: M
Fan of: Favorite?
Now Reading: avidly
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

According to inside information, the patterned head gear is to make them SEEM more approachable.
__________________
"Truth is stranger than fiction: fiction has to make sense." Leo Rosten.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
C. S. Lewis

"I find television very educational. Whenever somebody switches it on I go in the other room and read a book." (attributed to Groucho Marx)

The Pedants are revolting! (against bad grammar)
P'ter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 27 2009, 04:19 PM   #47
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

As do cartoon-character scrubs on nurses and techs not working in the pediatric ward. (Though I can't really blame them. If I had to wear scrubs I'd want Snoopy prints. Though it's worth noting, our zoo vets, who never deal with public customers, wear ordinary blue scrubs with their zoo uniforms.)
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 27 2009, 05:27 PM   #48
P'ter
Crafter

Craftmaster
 
P'ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wolverhampton
Gender: M
Fan of: Favorite?
Now Reading: avidly
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

This is all a long way from Pern. However, I'm told that over here the favorites are Thomas the Tank Engine characters.
__________________
"Truth is stranger than fiction: fiction has to make sense." Leo Rosten.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
C. S. Lewis

"I find television very educational. Whenever somebody switches it on I go in the other room and read a book." (attributed to Groucho Marx)

The Pedants are revolting! (against bad grammar)
P'ter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 28 2009, 08:22 PM   #49
Lady Maelin
Master Artist


 
Lady Maelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern,The Ship Who Sang
Now Reading: Anne's Pern EVERYTHING !
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Anareth...we can't assume a planet with different chemical building blocks for their plants will have all the precise same problems as plants on Earth.
__________________


I have to agree here with Anareth here about the dyes they might have found on Pern.

__________________________________________________ _______

Quote:
Eletric Dragon...Wave that magic wand too many times and Science Fiction stops and Fantasy begins. Physics is still physics and chemistry is still chemistry. If we're to believe Pern had enough parallel evolution to produce compatible life forms, it has enough parallel chemistry to match our own. In absence of anything canon that says blue is a plentiful color, then the best assumption with all of these parallels is that it isn't.
Electric Dragon...Yes....Pern was compatible with humans and most things that they brought with them...but that doesn't necessarily mean or suggest that everything on Pern would have worked the same there as it does here on earth...or that Pern itself didn't have it's own chemical properties that could be used to dye things with... not to mention it's own plants that might have had strong natural colors in them. The Pernese would have had to find many different ways to work with or handle Perns natural bounties, especially in combination with those they brought from Earth.

Just because we don't agree with you about some of the things we might imagine or suggest might be found and used on Pern, doesn't mean that it isn't science fiction...thats part of the joy of Sci-Fi writings...you can suppose all kinds of differnt things on a new and different planet...and the completly different types of compounds that might make it up. Science is finding new things here on Earth every day that they didn't know exsisted before. To believe that everything in space is made from the same basic formula's..IMO is a mistake. Imagination combined with scienctific facts...creates some marvelous possibilities.
__________________
"To the Horsehead Nebula and back we shall make beautiful music"..."Together!"

The stories of childhood leave an indelible impression,and their author always has a niche in the temple of memory from which the image is never cut out to be thrown on the rubbish heap of things that are outgrown and outlived........Howard Pyle
Lady Maelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 28 2009, 10:03 PM   #50
Sandi
Senior Member

 
Sandi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Gender: F
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Considering that Iantine made his own paints mostly from things in nature, I'd say there was a fair understanding of what would and would not work as colorants among at least some of the Pernese people. A Ninth Pass Weaver Master also remarked on the dyes and colors used in the tapestry Lessa used for her journey. There seemed to be some difficulty in producing certain shades of color but I had the impression that they were skilled in creating dyes. And Lady Maelin is right. There's no reason to apply such basic Earth Science so exclusively to Pern.
Sandi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 29 2009, 02:45 AM   #51
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Iantine was able to use a plant to get pure red, which is a difficult color on Earth, and another for yellow; but he used cobalt for blue paint, and I'm not sure if you could make dye from that.
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 29 2009, 05:16 AM   #52
P'ter
Crafter

Craftmaster
 
P'ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wolverhampton
Gender: M
Fan of: Favorite?
Now Reading: avidly
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

I know that this introduces Tod (cough) into the discussion, but in Dragon Fire he (and Mum) state that the shunned are marked with an indelible vegetable blue dye.
__________________
"Truth is stranger than fiction: fiction has to make sense." Leo Rosten.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
C. S. Lewis

"I find television very educational. Whenever somebody switches it on I go in the other room and read a book." (attributed to Groucho Marx)

The Pedants are revolting! (against bad grammar)
P'ter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 29 2009, 08:26 AM   #53
Hans
Master Archivist
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern!
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

oh, good remark/find, P'ter
__________________
Hans, also known as Elrhan, Master Archivist

Visit The Pern Museum & Archives for all your Pern and Anne McCaffrey News and Resources!
The Pern Museum & Archives is the home of the Pern Encyclopedia and the Pern Bloodlines.
Hans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 29 2009, 11:35 AM   #54
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by P'ter View Post
I know that this introduces Tod (cough) into the discussion, but in Dragon Fire he (and Mum) state that the shunned are marked with an indelible vegetable blue dye.
Point: are they tattooed? That's the only way to make any skin dye truly indelible as if you just put it on the skin, no matter how permanent, it will eventually shed off. That's not about the dye, that's about the properties of human skin. Even things like laundry marker eventually wear off.
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 29 2009, 12:37 PM   #55
Sandi
Senior Member

 
Sandi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Gender: F
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

That's a good point, Anareth. Personally, having had a few marker accidents, I'm really glad of that fact. But the first thing that I thought of along the line of stained/dyed skin was the nasty shade my hands get from shelling field peas.
Sandi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 29 2009, 04:21 PM   #56
P'ter
Crafter

Craftmaster
 
P'ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wolverhampton
Gender: M
Fan of: Favorite?
Now Reading: avidly
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

In dragonfire the point is made that they are not tattooed.

The sourse is referred to as 'bluebush'. I wonder if it's a relation to Rui Boos (redbush) tea?
__________________
"Truth is stranger than fiction: fiction has to make sense." Leo Rosten.

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
C. S. Lewis

"I find television very educational. Whenever somebody switches it on I go in the other room and read a book." (attributed to Groucho Marx)

The Pedants are revolting! (against bad grammar)
P'ter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 29 2009, 07:44 PM   #57
Lady Maelin
Master Artist


 
Lady Maelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern,The Ship Who Sang
Now Reading: Anne's Pern EVERYTHING !
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Perhaps on Pern there is a plant with very strong blue tints to it...making it readily available for Harper blue, as well as it's other punitive properties used in shunning.

If a blue plant dye is used for shunning...it would eventually wear off, like Anareth said...unless it was re-applied, during the shunning time.
__________________
"To the Horsehead Nebula and back we shall make beautiful music"..."Together!"

The stories of childhood leave an indelible impression,and their author always has a niche in the temple of memory from which the image is never cut out to be thrown on the rubbish heap of things that are outgrown and outlived........Howard Pyle
Lady Maelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 30 2009, 01:46 AM   #58
Brenda
Senior Member
 
Brenda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis
Gender: F
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Why would the shunned actively assist their own shunning?
Brenda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 30 2009, 09:20 AM   #59
Cheryl
Master Archivist
 
Cheryl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Maryland, USA
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern!
Now Reading: Paladin of Souls (Bujold)
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

If the shunning were only temporary and the dye needed to be reapplied, I'd bet the shunned would cooperate as that would likely be a condition on it not becoming permanant.
__________________
Visit one of the other sites of Cheryl's Anne McCaffrey Triad:
Sariel's Guide to Pern: a detailed guide to the series
The Many Works of Anne McCaffrey: largest fan site about Anne and ALL of her works
McCaffrey Quest: annual trivia contest.
Cheryl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 30 2009, 11:14 AM   #60
jube
Dolphineer Journeywoman
 
jube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Australia
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragons of Pern
Now Reading: Puzzles and my thesaurus!
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

I know the ink used for "dating" the dates on the boxes of manufactured goods like drink bottles (think coke or pepsi), bags of lollies etc, takes a few days to get off. I had so much fun, cleaning conveyor belts tonight and my right hand is still black.









...........

The mind went a little haywire then...too much of the "go-go" gaurana juice I had earlier to keep me awake after doing a 12 hour shift at work yesterday. Is okay, gravity strikes back occasionally.
__________________
Dolphineer Journeywoman and part-time researcher....

Find me on ebay.....

Here'tis!
jube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 30 2009, 11:15 AM   #61
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

The problem arises when it's supposed to be permanent. If you're shunning them, how do you know when it wears off? They're not going to tell you because it's certainly not in their interest, not to mention that...you're shunning them. At that point tattooing or branding makes a lot more sense.
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 30 2009, 11:17 AM   #62
jube
Dolphineer Journeywoman
 
jube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Australia
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragons of Pern
Now Reading: Puzzles and my thesaurus!
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Now you got me thinking of how they brand cattle with a red-hot poker! Well they used to do that, until they give them "plastic earrings" or tags on their ears in some instances.
__________________
Dolphineer Journeywoman and part-time researcher....

Find me on ebay.....

Here'tis!
jube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 30 2009, 07:03 PM   #63
Anareth
Journeywoman Healer
 
Anareth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Here and There
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, Ship Series
Now Reading: Girl Genius (read it!)
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

That's what they used to do to prisoners. Of course, cattle have much thicker hides.
Anareth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 30 2009, 11:00 PM   #64
ElectricDragon
Inactive
 
ElectricDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Between
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern, obviously.
Now Reading: That's classified.
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Maelin View Post
Electric Dragon...Yes....Pern was compatible with humans and most things that they brought with them...but that doesn't necessarily mean or suggest that everything on Pern would have worked the same there as it does here on earth...or that Pern itself didn't have it's own chemical properties that could be used to dye things with... not to mention it's own plants that might have had strong natural colors in them. The Pernese would have had to find many different ways to work with or handle Perns natural bounties, especially in combination with those they brought from Earth.

Just because we don't agree with you about some of the things we might imagine or suggest might be found and used on Pern, doesn't mean that it isn't science fiction...thats part of the joy of Sci-Fi writings...you can suppose all kinds of differnt things on a new and different planet...and the completly different types of compounds that might make it up. Science is finding new things here on Earth every day that they didn't know exsisted before. To believe that everything in space is made from the same basic formula's..IMO is a mistake. Imagination combined with scienctific facts...creates some marvelous possibilities.
You're (collective "you") really not listening very well. Old Hippie's observation (sadly lacking citation) and P'ter's DFire observations are more constructive.

Saying that because Pern is alien it could be different and we can therefor willy-nilly ignore what we do know about science and about biomes that humans can actually live in (and to which ipso facto, biomes that humans can adapt to must have great commonality) is alchemizing with handwavium.

Just because it's an alien planet doesn't mean that oxidizing iron will not produce rust.

In dealing with an imagined alien world that is supposed to be of a realistic character, it is not safe to start from the standpoint of "anything is possible" and work backward from there. You start from what is known to be possible and work outward from that point, making as few digressions from what is known as necessary. This maintains plausibility. Taking the other path makes a hash of things.

I deal with a lot of counterfactuals designing and criticizing scenarios for wargames. The ones that start from a person ignoring reality are invariably a Charlie Foxtrot. The ones that start from reality and are made to depart from it by a touch here and a nudge there invariably produce better results and rave reviews. It's no different writing good science fiction.

Abandon the pretense of engaging in good science fiction and effectively, you're writing fantasy, perhaps dressed up in the trappings of science and labeled science fantasy, but fantasy none-the-less. I've always thought better than that of Pern even if it's nothing to compare to the anal-retentively scientific work of someone like Brin (which incidentally is a heck of a lot less readable).

I could honestly care less whether blue dye is, or is not, common on Pern. I merely pointed out that if it parallels Earth, blue would be a relatively (y'all look up the meaning of that word) scarce dye. At that point everyone got into an all-fired panic about clothing harpers, who even if blue is a rare dye constitute a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the Pernese population and could easily be clothed in blue in spite of its scarcity, especially in a tradition-bound command economy. All caveats that I allowed that obviate every objection that has been raised to what I said. And do remember, Pern means Parallel Earth, Resources Negligible.

Y'all are a lot more worried about the fact that I'm saying something that challenges your way of viewing something than I am about anyone agreeing with me. If you question that, refer again to my remarks about Old Hippie and P'ter at the beginning of this.
ElectricDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 30 2009, 11:05 PM   #65
ElectricDragon
Inactive
 
ElectricDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Between
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern, obviously.
Now Reading: That's classified.
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anareth View Post
The problem arises when it's supposed to be permanent. If you're shunning them, how do you know when it wears off? They're not going to tell you because it's certainly not in their interest, not to mention that...you're shunning them. At that point tattooing or branding makes a lot more sense.
You are entirely correct. I see only two ways to make this "permanent" chemically:

1) A stain that sets into the bone and is faintly visible through the skin;

2) A chemical stain that actually causes a permanent physical change to the organ of the skin and/or cells where it is applied.

I have a real hard time with either explanation, as it is highly unlikely that either situation would obtain through any medium that is not highly, highly toxic.

Best to RetCon to tattooing or branding. Nasty, either way, but as the song says, "There's nothing humane about the human race."

Last edited by ElectricDragon; Apr 30 2009 at 11:18 PM. Reason: typo
ElectricDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 30 2009, 11:06 PM   #66
ElectricDragon
Inactive
 
ElectricDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Between
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern, obviously.
Now Reading: That's classified.
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Hippie View Post
I remember in DD that when the colonist landed they noticed that the plants had a blueish cast to it. This would seem to indicate that blue would be an easy color to get. Wa-La! Kids with blue grass stains! and maybe a reintroduction to Earth's fabled "Bluejeans"
A good point but a page citation would be appreciated at your convenience.
ElectricDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 30 2009, 11:10 PM   #67
ElectricDragon
Inactive
 
ElectricDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Between
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern, obviously.
Now Reading: That's classified.
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by P'ter View Post
I know that this introduces Tod (cough) into the discussion, but in Dragon Fire he (and Mum) state that the shunned are marked with an indelible vegetable blue dye.
Just read that one and that's a good observation.

--

Re: Tod. His mother canon-ized him. You're stuck with him. Get over it. If you get to hand-wave him away, I get to hand-wave away the End of Thread and then where would we all be (as DQ goes <poof> under Anareth's hand and Weyrlady drops over in a dead faint for a lack of Canth page time)?
ElectricDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 30 2009, 11:17 PM   #68
ElectricDragon
Inactive
 
ElectricDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Between
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern, obviously.
Now Reading: That's classified.
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheryl View Post
If the shunning were only temporary and the dye needed to be reapplied, I'd bet the shunned would cooperate as that would likely be a condition on it not becoming permanant.
I doubt it, especially given how many are forced into crime. Better to let that mark slowly fade away and have the option however far down the line to subtly worm back into a community elsewhere.

Of course, the entire institution of Shunning works a heck of a lot better with the population of a 2nd or 3rd Pass Pern than a 9th Pass Pern. There are just too many Pernese later for the "word" to get around pervasively enough for a person's description and reputation to effectively Shun them everywhere in the event that the Azure Letter wears off over time. You're talking about the difference between a couple of tens of thousands of Pernese and about 1.3 million Pernese.

Last edited by ElectricDragon; Apr 30 2009 at 11:23 PM. Reason: change
ElectricDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2009, 12:28 AM   #69
Lady Maelin
Master Artist


 
Lady Maelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern,The Ship Who Sang
Now Reading: Anne's Pern EVERYTHING !
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Electric Dragon...You're (collective "you") really not listening very well.
The *YOU* was *YOU*...no collective about it.
__________________
"To the Horsehead Nebula and back we shall make beautiful music"..."Together!"

The stories of childhood leave an indelible impression,and their author always has a niche in the temple of memory from which the image is never cut out to be thrown on the rubbish heap of things that are outgrown and outlived........Howard Pyle
Lady Maelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2009, 12:28 AM   #70
Lady Maelin
Master Artist


 
Lady Maelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern,The Ship Who Sang
Now Reading: Anne's Pern EVERYTHING !
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Perhaps when the vegtable dyes wear off...the shunning is over. No need to re-apply it. A vegtable dye just doesn't sound to permanent to me. In many cases here on earth, shunning had a time limit. It was a punishment...like a jail term, not a life sentence. Seems that serious crimes on Pern were punished by staking out in a threadfall...or by having to work in the mines for a given length of time...or till you died depending on how hedious the crime was.
__________________
"To the Horsehead Nebula and back we shall make beautiful music"..."Together!"

The stories of childhood leave an indelible impression,and their author always has a niche in the temple of memory from which the image is never cut out to be thrown on the rubbish heap of things that are outgrown and outlived........Howard Pyle
Lady Maelin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2009, 07:42 AM   #71
ElectricDragon
Inactive
 
ElectricDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Between
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern, obviously.
Now Reading: That's classified.
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Maelin View Post
The *YOU* was *YOU*...no collective about it.
Unless you're (singular, as in your one particular person) being a smart alec, the you was collective because I wasn't referring only to you as an individual. As in "y'all" or "you all."
ElectricDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2009, 07:45 AM   #72
ElectricDragon
Inactive
 
ElectricDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Between
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern, obviously.
Now Reading: That's classified.
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Maelin View Post
Perhaps when the vegtable dyes wear off...the shunning is over. No need to re-apply it. A vegtable dye just doesn't sound to permanent to me. In many cases here on earth, shunning had a time limit. It was a punishment...like a jail term, not a life sentence. Seems that serious crimes on Pern were punished by staking out in a threadfall...or by having to work in the mines for a given length of time...or till you died depending on how hedious the crime was.
Having recently read the book there is no statement or implication anywhere in the volume that Shunning ends. Once the mark is applied, it is looked for and the treatment for those found to have it is quite intolerant (at a minimum). This is part of what informs the young female protagonist's rather desperate worry about ever being given it.

Last edited by ElectricDragon; May 1 2009 at 10:56 PM. Reason: typo
ElectricDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 3 2009, 11:17 PM   #73
Weyrlady
Dragonrider
Weyrling
 
Weyrlady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sedona, Arizona USA
Gender: F
Fan of: DroP/Canth fangirl
Now Reading: Dragonfly in Amber by Diana Gabaldon
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:

Re: Tod. His mother canon-ized him. You're stuck with him. Get over it. If you get to hand-wave him away, I get to hand-wave away the End of Thread and then where would we all be (as DQ goes <poof> under Anareth's hand and Weyrlady drops over in a dead faint for a lack of Canth page time)?:lol
He's laughing at me. . . **indignance**

Don't mock, man! Canth is cool. Most of DQ should go <poof> and there should just be more of Canth of whole series, and I agree w/ Anareth about being interested to see what the 1st Draft actually said.

Also, on the subject of shunning. . . it's a highly effective form of punishment. Have y'all heard of Tent City? Here in AZ, one of the county sherriffs uses it as punishment for many extreme criminals- people who've done REALLY bad stuff. He has them stay in un-air-conditioned tents out in the desert during the summer, and work oln road crews, etc., with the idea that 'jail shouldn't be fun'. Although a prisoner's stay in Tent City can end, the intent is that the lessons learned there will not.

Shunning is also a non-violent, effective way to "straighten someone out". The length of time of actually being shunned (as in, living on the remote desert island) probably varies according to the heinousness of the crime, although hopefully the lessons learned learned while there will not end, ever.
Weyrlady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2009, 12:27 AM   #74
Mealla Liana
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Pacific Coast
Gender: F
Fan of: The Brainships & CS books
Now Reading: Sue Slayers: The Last Fangirlologist
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricDragon View Post
You're (collective "you") really not listening very well. Old Hippie's observation (sadly lacking citation) and P'ter's DFire observations are more constructive.

Saying that because Pern is alien it could be different and we can therefor willy-nilly ignore what we do know about science and about biomes that humans can actually live in (and to which ipso facto, biomes that humans can adapt to must have great commonality) is alchemizing with handwavium.

Just because it's an alien planet doesn't mean that oxidizing iron will not produce rust.

In dealing with an imagined alien world that is supposed to be of a realistic character, it is not safe to start from the standpoint of "anything is possible" and work backward from there. You start from what is known to be possible and work outward from that point, making as few digressions from what is known as necessary. This maintains plausibility. Taking the other path makes a hash of things.

I deal with a lot of counterfactuals designing and criticizing scenarios for wargames. The ones that start from a person ignoring reality are invariably a Charlie Foxtrot. The ones that start from reality and are made to depart from it by a touch here and a nudge there invariably produce better results and rave reviews. It's no different writing good science fiction.

Abandon the pretense of engaging in good science fiction and effectively, you're writing fantasy, perhaps dressed up in the trappings of science and labeled science fantasy, but fantasy none-the-less. I've always thought better than that of Pern even if it's nothing to compare to the anal-retentively scientific work of someone like Brin (which incidentally is a heck of a lot less readable).

I could honestly care less whether blue dye is, or is not, common on Pern. I merely pointed out that if it parallels Earth, blue would be a relatively (y'all look up the meaning of that word) scarce dye. At that point everyone got into an all-fired panic about clothing harpers, who even if blue is a rare dye constitute a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the Pernese population and could easily be clothed in blue in spite of its scarcity, especially in a tradition-bound command economy. All caveats that I allowed that obviate every objection that has been raised to what I said. And do remember, Pern means Parallel Earth, Resources Negligible.

Y'all are a lot more worried about the fact that I'm saying something that challenges your way of viewing something than I am about anyone agreeing with me. If you question that, refer again to my remarks about Old Hippie and P'ter at the beginning of this.
Ummm.. just because Pern is a parallel to Terra doesn't mean a plant couldn't have evolved there that is easy to grow and produces a blue dye!

And, also, in Dragonquest, just before Robinton goes to the wedding at Telgar, it is stated that green dye is easily obtained from fellis. It also states that Robinton thinks they should do away with the tradition of green being unlucky.

Silkworms, according to Dragonsdawn, didn't have any Pernese predators, but mulberry bushes, their only food source, weren't viable on Pern.
__________________
Cheryl! Help! I didn't get the account activation email!
Mealla Liana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2009, 07:07 AM   #75
Gidget2
Brainship
Courier
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wiltshire, England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Ship Series
Now Reading: Dragonheart, baby!
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

I always assumed that green was unlucky on Pern for a very good reason (or at least by the 9th Pass). They've spent nigh-on 2000 eradicating any extraneous vegetation from their places of residence. In DD (I think) Piemur (I think) grinds some grass in the courtyard with his bootheel. If you've had a lifetime of growing up with green things connotating with "being eaten by Thread" - would you want the person who comes to make you feel better wearing that colour?

I'm sure it was one of those things that came from the subconscious and affected their culture in a way they didn't realise.

As for colours - Jaxom wears a rust-coloured tunic or trousers (doing really well on the whole specific quotes part - apologies).

I've never really understood why, for many people, fantasy tales always take place with a background of wimples, bliauts, doublets, hose and chemises. (I know Pern is supposed to be sci-fi.) It is a good point - why would future societies revert to such costumes? Simple styles that are hardy, easy to take care of and cheap to manufacture would be the norm for 90%+ of the population.

Yes, Lady Holders would have more elegant dressings made of more expensive and laborious techniques and materials.

I think that for outdoor workers, hats would make absolute sense, and not just in tropical areas - the summer sun in Tillek's fields could, no doubt, get very warm indeed. I think for most agricultural workers some sort of conical straw hat would make an appearance. Woollen hats for Northern workers and fishermen, and possibly cheches/tagelmusts for those in Istan and Igen deserts. Interestingly, this article from Wikipedia has a mention of indigo permanently dying the skin over time ......
Gidget2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2009, 12:59 PM   #76
Weyrlady
Dragonrider
Weyrling
 
Weyrlady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Sedona, Arizona USA
Gender: F
Fan of: DroP/Canth fangirl
Now Reading: Dragonfly in Amber by Diana Gabaldon
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidget2 View Post
I always assumed that green was unlucky on Pern for a very good reason (or at least by the 9th Pass). They've spent nigh-on 2000 eradicating any extraneous vegetation from their places of residence. In DD (I think) Piemur (I think) grinds some grass in the courtyard with his bootheel. If you've had a lifetime of growing up with green things connotating with "being eaten by Thread" - would you want the person who comes to make you feel better wearing that colour?

I'm sure it was one of those things that came from the subconscious and affected their culture in a way they didn't realise.

As for colours - Jaxom wears a rust-coloured tunic or trousers (doing really well on the whole specific quotes part - apologies).

I've never really understood why, for many people, fantasy tales always take place with a background of wimples, bliauts, doublets, hose and chemises. (I know Pern is supposed to be sci-fi.) It is a good point - why would future societies revert to such costumes? Simple styles that are hardy, easy to take care of and cheap to manufacture would be the norm for 90%+ of the population.

Yes, Lady Holders would have more elegant dressings made of more expensive and laborious techniques and materials.

I think that for outdoor workers, hats would make absolute sense, and not just in tropical areas - the summer sun in Tillek's fields could, no doubt, get very warm indeed. I think for most agricultural workers some sort of conical straw hat would make an appearance. Woollen hats for Northern workers and fishermen, and possibly cheches/tagelmusts for those in Istan and Igen deserts. Interestingly, this article from Wikipedia has a mention of indigo permanently dying the skin over time ......
That was F'nor in DF who grinds the grass out, I'm pretty sure. Getting rid of "combustilbe materials".

Excellent point on how the color green subconsiosly affected the culture over time.
Weyrlady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2009, 02:04 PM   #77
Gidget2
Brainship
Courier
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wiltshire, England
Gender: M
Fan of: The Ship Series
Now Reading: Dragonheart, baby!
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

LOL F'nor .... Piemur ..... I can see how easily I could have confused the two ... *eye roll* Thanks, WL!!
Gidget2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2009, 04:18 PM   #78
GinnyStar
Dolphineer
Craftmaster
 
GinnyStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Wausau, WI USA, Central Standard Time
Gender: F
Fan of: Pern, other SF works
Now Reading: Dragonback Bargain
2cent Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidget2 View Post
I always assumed that green was unlucky on Pern<sip>..
In DQ Robinton remarks about the color green, quite easy to get hold of the dye, just before the wedding at Teglar. So did Lessa after that too. If I recall right.
GinnyStar
__________________
Lover s s, s and friends
Lover of and beads,
http://www.change.org/profiles/GinnyStar
Dragoncave GinnyStar2
Jellied Dragons
Lair of Dragons
http://dragcave.net/user/GinnyStar2
Thanks! Others: None at this time
WIP http://archiveofourown.org/works/252259
http://www.daisy.org/learning-difficulties
GinnyStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2009, 10:42 PM   #79
Emeraldrose
Holder
Drudge
 
Emeraldrose's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Tennessee
Gender: F
Fan of: Dragonriders Series
Now Reading: The Great Hunt Robert Jordan
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

The conical straw hat would probably be commonly used...Was "recreated" during the crossing to Fort in one of the short stories (probably not straw persay as I recall it was created to protect from thread...
Emeraldrose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2009, 11:32 PM   #80
ElectricDragon
Inactive
 
ElectricDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Between
Gender: M
Fan of: Pern, obviously.
Now Reading: That's classified.
Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weyrlady View Post
He's laughing at me. . . **indignance**

Don't mock, man! Canth is cool. Most of DQ should go <poof> and there should just be more of Canth of whole series, and I agree w/ Anareth about being interested to see what the 1st Draft actually said.

Also, on the subject of shunning. . . it's a highly effective form of punishment. Have y'all heard of Tent City? Here in AZ, one of the county sherriffs uses it as punishment for many extreme criminals- people who've done REALLY bad stuff. He has them stay in un-air-conditioned tents out in the desert during the summer, and work oln road crews, etc., with the idea that 'jail shouldn't be fun'. Although a prisoner's stay in Tent City can end, the intent is that the lessons learned there will not.

Shunning is also a non-violent, effective way to "straighten someone out". The length of time of actually being shunned (as in, living on the remote desert island) probably varies according to the heinousness of the crime, although hopefully the lessons learned learned while there will not end, ever.
Just looking out for you; can't have you going into Canth withdrawal on us!

I don't think the tent city really parallels shunning, it's just a tougher form of incarceration. Shunning is exclusion from society; you're not locked up--everyone just treats you as if you're not there and/or runs you off if they do notice you. They won't sell to you; they won't buy from you; they won't converse with you; etc...

As much as shunning might be conceived of as non-violent and corrective, it is a procedure as subject to abuse as any other. That's clearly illustrated in DFire. Abusive lords "turf" undesirable but non-criminal holders by shunning them; children born to the shunned are treated the same as their parents; the shunned are assumed to be guilty whenever a malfeasance is discovered; they are discriminated against; they are subject to the Pernese equivalent of pogroms; they are abused and murdered without consequence; they are enslaved by the powerful, such as D'gan without a second thought. And the results are not non-violent or corrective. In fact, the shunned are driven to steal to support themselves, and will violently resist capture, and will even kill to support themselves or escape.

Shunning is an idealistic, well-intentioned idea that ultimately back-fires in the face of reality as so many such ideas do. Such a concept is really only effective in a culture where shame carries great weight...and even then, it only works with the cooperation of the punished. Eventually, you'll get some party that refuses to go along and then the situation will inevitably escalate.
ElectricDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dragonrider Psychic Abilities (or, what openings are left for 9th Pass stories?) D. M. Domini Dragonriders of Pern 58 Feb 21 2010 02:00 AM
Threadfall Coverage - 8th Pass vs 9th Pass Shalyn Dragonriders of Pern 28 Jan 11 2009 12:07 AM
Collecting Highlight (43) - The Atlas of Pern c.s. Hans Collecting Highlights Archives 23 Feb 25 2007 09:30 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

A Meeting of Minds forum owned by Cheryl B. Miller.
All references to worlds and characters based on Anne McCaffrey’s fiction are copyright © Anne McCaffrey 1967-2008, all rights reserved, and used by permission of the author.