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Old Apr 19 2008, 11:08 AM   #1
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Default What happened to T'bor?

Okay, I seem to have missed something somewhere.

Southern Weyr is displaced north to High Reaches, with T'bor as Weyrleader. They have their little disaster with the queens, but T'bor apparently remains as Weyrleader for some time.

At one point their is mention of a promise (between Lessa and F'lar) to let T'bor go back to Southern, "after the Pass is over." IIRC, this was in AtWoP or DoP.

Then in SoP, M'rand, and Oldtimer, is suddenly the Weyrleader of High Reaches and retiring, along with Pilgra.

What happened to T'bor and when? Did he retire, or did he get scored? And just how long did he remain Weyrleader at High Reaches?
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Old Apr 19 2008, 12:31 PM   #2
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

Correct answers please on a postcard to:

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Old Apr 19 2008, 06:20 PM   #3
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

I'm not sure what happened to T'bor, but he would have remained Weyrleader at High reaches only until Selgrith, Pilgra's queen was flown by some bronze other than Orth. I guess Selgrith was senior once Prideth and Wirenth were dead. Or maybe she was the next to rise. Anyway, apparently, at some point, M'rand's bronze flew Selgrith and he became Weyrleader.

As for a promise that T'bor could return to Southern, sorry, can't help you there.

It is curious. I don't really remember the last time T'bor is mentioned as Weyrleader at High Reaches. Do you?

Good question. I may have to go looking, now.
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Old Apr 19 2008, 06:41 PM   #4
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

I think it could be termed an Anne-consistency
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Old Apr 19 2008, 06:55 PM   #5
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

Or he did go to southern, and there was no point in mentioning it. Would you really want the offhand line "Oh, by the way, T'bor moved South. Now back on topic..."
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Old Apr 20 2008, 01:43 AM   #6
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

To me, T'bor wasn't that memorable a person anyway, and he really didn't seem to be that great of a Weyrleader. He was more of a tool for F'lar than anything else.

He's as much to blame as Kylara (and in the cases of those of us who want to blame Lessa/F'lar) in the Queens' Deaths. He was an enabler. He allowed Kylara to run rampant. Maybe if someone else had flown Pridith, Kylara wouldn't have been so willful and uncontrolled.

Kylara seemed to be the type of person who was attracted to strength. She would have given anyone a hard time, but if someone put the smackdown on her, she may have respected that. T'bor was so afraid of losing her that he didn't do anything that would jeopardize his position, making him contemptible in her eyes.

As for his ability to lead a Weyr - I never really saw that in any of the books. If he didn't win any subsequent flights, then he didn't deserve the position.
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Old Apr 20 2008, 04:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

it was implied in DQ that T'bor DID put the smackdown on Kylara (bruises on arms), but don't remember specific page/chapter/scene. Kylara enjoyed cracking Tbor's composure. the happiness she got from getting her way overcame the downside of him beating her.
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Old Apr 20 2008, 04:27 PM   #8
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

I think T'bor ended up like the Blue dragons, just not worth mentioning anymore. last few books of Anne's had no mention whatsoever of Blue dragons that I remember.
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Old Apr 20 2008, 05:01 PM   #9
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

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it was implied in DQ that T'bor DID put the smackdown on Kylara (bruises on arms), but don't remember specific page/chapter/scene. Kylara enjoyed cracking Tbor's composure. the happiness she got from getting her way overcame the downside of him beating her.
I read the bruises as Meron beating Kylara, not T'bor.

Oh - and since when does "beating" equal "garnering respect"? Even if T'bor did have the cahones to beat Kylara, it still wouldn't mean she respected him. I'm sure there are plenty of females out there who have abusive husbands who don't respect them. Fear? Yes. Respect? Erm...no.

If I implied that I meant beating up on someone when I said "put the smackdown on her", I apologize. That is not what I meant. I meant that she needed someone who wouldn't let her walk all over him. He was not it.
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Old Apr 20 2008, 05:27 PM   #10
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

I agree, Shalyn. I also thought Meron was the one doing the beating.
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Old Apr 21 2008, 12:16 AM   #11
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

I'm not sure I Meron was beating her. Thing may have gotten a little rough in the bed.
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Old Apr 21 2008, 09:51 AM   #12
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

I always assumed that maybe Vanira was the next weyrwoman and if her Gold stopped rising a few yeas before Segrith, T'bor could have used that as the excuse he needed.
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Old Apr 21 2008, 01:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

The last time I heard any mention of t'bor was in ddrums. As high reaches weyrleader in merons bedchamber when meron was dying. After that he sort of just vanished. The other southern weyrs are mentioned(not neccessarily in DD, but in the other books) but I thought K'van and T'gellan ended up being the weyrleaders there.

I've also wondered what happened to him, glad someone asked.
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Old Apr 21 2008, 05:03 PM   #14
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

I don't think T'bor could be blamed for Kylara's behavior. The true "boss" in any weyr is the superior Queen. T'bor, as a Bronzerider, couldn't do anything to Kylara that would upset Prideth. But it isn't really surprising that, after everything that happened, he just faded into the background. I think both he and his dragon had had enough and "losing" the next mating flight would relieve them both of the responsibilities and pressures of leadership.
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Old Apr 21 2008, 05:10 PM   #15
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

Isn't Vanira really Talina, who ended up in Eastern?
And that's certainly possible Sandi. Hmm.
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Old Apr 21 2008, 05:40 PM   #16
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

No, Talina is the Ruathan girl who impresses from the clutch in DQ.
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Old Apr 21 2008, 05:46 PM   #17
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

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Isn't Vanira really Talina, who ended up in Eastern?
And that's certainly possible Sandi. Hmm.

According to a listing of the people of pern at the end of Dragonriders of Pern, Talina was a weyrwoman at Benden. I assume a jr one. Hmm, it doesn't name her queen and right now, while I can find a couple places where Talina is mentioned, I haven't found any place that names her queen, but she is at Eastern in SoP. However, in the same listing in Dragonriders of Pern, Vanira, also spelled Vanera, was a rider at Southern Weyr, rider of queen Ralenth. IIRC, she went to High Reaches when F'lar exiled oldtimers to Southern.

ps. Found her - she impressed the queen in the same hatching that Jaxom impressed Ruth, the hatching where Brekke was given the opportunity to try to re-impress. By that time Vanira was already at High Reaches.
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Old Apr 21 2008, 08:41 PM   #18
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

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The last time I heard any mention of t'bor was in ddrums. As high reaches weyrleader in merons bedchamber when meron was dying. After that he sort of just vanished. The other southern weyrs are mentioned(not neccessarily in DD, but in the other books) but I thought K'van and T'gellan ended up being the weyrleaders there.

I've also wondered what happened to him, glad someone asked.
I think there is mention of him after DDr, in RoP, AtWoP or DoP. That's where I recall the offhand remark between F'lar and Lessa about letting T'bor go south after the Pass.

I'm just trying to figure out exactly when he exited the leadership at High Reaches. Obviously, it was before SoP, but having read all of these back-to-back I've lost track of exactly which of those other books he was mentioned in.
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Old Apr 21 2008, 08:56 PM   #19
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

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I don't think T'bor could be blamed for Kylara's behavior. The true "boss" in any weyr is the superior Queen. T'bor, as a Bronzerider, couldn't do anything to Kylara that would upset Prideth. But it isn't really surprising that, after everything that happened, he just faded into the background. I think both he and his dragon had had enough and "losing" the next mating flight would relieve them both of the responsibilities and pressures of leadership.
It certainly would provide him a personal exit, but I don't believe he took it immediately. I think he was High Reaches' Weyrleader for a time afterward. In fact, he had to have been, since Meron didn't die for several Turns after the incident with the queens. So T'bor's dragon obviously flew the next senior queen a few times. This was during a pass so the senior queen was clutching at least once a Turn.

Somewhere between Meron's death ~7(?) Turns into the Pass, and SOP which is something like 31-38 years into the Pass, T'bor exits the leadership of High Reaches and M'Rand, an Oldtimer steps up. Not at all unlikely given that not every Oldtimer went south, and no one says that he was at High Reaches when the exile took place. He could have come from another Oldtimer Weyr.

I'm just trying to figure out in which book he left and about what time. Or when he was killed. There frankly haven't been enough Weyrleader casualties from what is a very hazardous occupation. I'd have killed R'mart when he was scored in DQ, and I'd have taken out F'nor sometime between WD and SoP. I might also have taken out another well-known Weyrleader or Wingleader by SoP. At least F'lessan was taken down in SoP if not killed (although it should have been from Thread), but frankly there ought to have been more casualties amongst the senior ranks. It's one thing to preserve F'lar and Lessa, but you can't save everybody from the hazards of a very dangerous job. Just on principle, I'd have fragged about 20% of the major dragon-rider characters just from their occupation (exclusive of duels, feline attacks, etc...) between DF and SoP. It would be realistic and it would ratchet up reader tension worrying about whether their favorite would be next. Not my 'verse, so the author's free to do as she chooses.

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Old Apr 22 2008, 12:53 AM   #20
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

Right, I got confused. And SoP gives Talina's queen as Arwith.
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Old Apr 22 2008, 01:02 AM   #21
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

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Right, I got confused. And SoP gives Talina's queen as Arwith.
You found it! Good! I was sure it told somewhere, but I had no idea where and couldn't find it.
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Old Apr 22 2008, 11:00 AM   #22
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

If T'bor left High Reaches and went to Southern or possibly even Eastern once that was set up as a wing leader once he had finished at High Reaches. It's possible that he turn around and said "Shards I'm doing something else for a change". Another possibility is that he went back in time, simply to disappear.
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Old Apr 22 2008, 04:55 PM   #23
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You found it! Good! I was sure it told somewhere, but I had no idea where and couldn't find it.
Found it purely by accident when I was looking for something else. Afraid I forgot the chapter, but it was in the first four to nine.
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Old Apr 24 2008, 08:42 PM   #24
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

Yes, T'bor definitely appeared last in DoP. In SoP, he wasn't mentioned at all and M'rand had replaced him. That's one of a few flaws in SoP, in my opinion.
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Old Apr 24 2008, 09:54 PM   #25
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

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Yes, T'bor definitely appeared last in DoP. In SoP, he wasn't mentioned at all and M'rand had replaced him. That's one of a few flaws in SoP, in my opinion.
Thank you for pinning it down.
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Old Jul 24 2008, 03:11 AM   #26
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

T'bor was still Wyerleader I think in All the Wyers of Pern, M'rand is one of the older bronze rider with problems during N'ton trip to the Red Star, I know it an old thread but I thought I had some infromation that may help.
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Old Jul 24 2008, 11:59 PM   #27
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

Yes, and T'bor was also still Weyrleader in Dolphins of Pern. Then in the Skies of Pern, he's gone and M'rand's Weyrleader. So something happened between about the 29th turn of Ninth Pass (when the Hurricane expose Toric's holdings. T'bor was part of the contingent that visited Toric about that affront), and the 31st or 32nd Pass in which M'rand appears as Weyrleader. Problem is, Lessa acts as if M'rand has been Weyrleader for ages. My theory: AM forgot T'bor was still Weyrleader.


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Or he did go to southern, and there was no point in mentioning it. Would you really want the offhand line "Oh, by the way, T'bor moved South. Now back on topic..."
AM doesn't seem to have a proble with offhand lines. Skies of Pern is full of them. I believe in the scene with Lessa and F'lar at Turnover, discussing the losses, she writes off Lords Laudey and Warbret, and R'gul. And they probably have about as much importance as T'bor(ok, maybe a bit less:)
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Old Jul 25 2008, 05:16 PM   #28
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

Point taken...I completely forgot about that.
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Old Jul 25 2008, 09:29 PM   #29
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

Understandable
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Old Jan 1 2012, 01:51 PM   #30
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

(Darn, didn't realise there was a topic for this; I'd have posted here instead of in the "Where's R'gul?" thread. Anyhoo...)

While I thought for ages that T'bor must've died between DOP and SOP to explain his total lack of mention in SOP, I noticed while flicking through DOP recently a part where the Weyrleaders and Craftmasters are talking about plans for "after" and exploring the continent, and R'mart mentions that F'lar promised to let T'bor step down as Weyrleader and retire to Southern, although F'lar says he'll let him after the Pass ends. Perhaps F'lar changed his mind and let him leave, or T'bor got sick of waiting (he is a Weyrleader after all; it's his choice if he wants to stay or go) and just went South - maybe he was exhausted, or had had enough of Pernese politics. It would explain why he's not mentioned at all; he was no longer a part of big decision making on Pern, so he didn't appear in any scenes, and F'lar and Lessa didn't feel the need to fill him in on things.

On another note, in the same scene F'lar talks with R'mart about potential Weyr sites (for a Ninth Weyr; placed at Xanadu in ATWOP and the DLG2) and find nothing (no craters, so they instead need rock to build a Weyrhall), and at the end F'lar asks about the "edges" of their map, which R'mart states have nothing there, but the scene implies that there might be something useful there. Several chapters later, K'van tells Toric Southern Weyr has relocated.

If it's the edge of the map and there's "nothing there", could this mean that Southern Weyr relocated to Cibola Province? This would certainly allow them to keep the Thread cover they wanted (Southern covers the West, Monaco Bay the East, and potentially Xanadu for the Centre).
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Old Jan 1 2012, 02:46 PM   #31
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

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AM doesn't seem to have a proble with offhand lines. Skies of Pern is full of them. I believe in the scene with Lessa and F'lar at Turnover, discussing the losses, she writes off Lords Laudey and Warbret, and R'gul. And they probably have about as much importance as T'bor(ok, maybe a bit less:)
T'bor is about the same age as F'lar, and R'gul a full generation older than both of them (in fact Robinton met him as Rangul before he Impressed, though MHoP isn't reliable on dates). So, actuarially speaking, R'gul was more likely than T'bor to have died by the time of SoP.

It's possible Orth was suffering from Thread injuries and couldn't fly in the mating flight that made M'rand Weyrleader. T'bor would then have stayed on as a wingleader or perhaps become Weyrlingmaster at one Weyr or another.
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Old Jan 1 2012, 05:34 PM   #32
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It's possible Orth was suffering from Thread injuries and couldn't fly in the mating flight that made M'rand Weyrleader. T'bor would then have stayed on as a wingleader or perhaps become Weyrlingmaster at one Weyr or another.
Or just lost. T'bor might have lost motivation, the general population might have lost confidence in him after the Brekke/Kylara debacle, the new senior Weyrwoman and her dragon might have not been interested in keeping him and Orth.
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Old Jan 1 2012, 10:20 PM   #33
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Default Re: What happened to T'bor?

Seems likely; M'rand and Pilgra seem to have a pretty close relationship in SOP, and I don't recall seeing T'bor with Pilgra very much. Perhaps their relationship was something like Sh'gall and Moreta's.

Makes you wonder if T'bor ever got over Kylara's death, or whether this affected any future relationships; he seemed to love her even though she didn't love him back. Perhaps he retired for that reason?
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Old Jan 1 2012, 11:19 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Almaron View Post
Seems likely; M'rand and Pilgra seem to have a pretty close relationship in SOP, and I don't recall seeing T'bor with Pilgra very much. Perhaps their relationship was something like Sh'gall and Moreta's.

Makes you wonder if T'bor ever got over Kylara's death, or whether this affected any future relationships; he seemed to love her even though she didn't love him back. Perhaps he retired for that reason?
But according to previous posts in this thread, T'bor was Weyrleader for quite a few turns after the death of the two queens. Was he really so much in love with Kylara, or just determined to keep his position as Weyrleader?
There are references to him being "devoted/committed" to her and one statement that "as long as Orth can fly Prideth, Kylara's mine". And they were together for 3 turns in the South (timing) and 7 since the Oldtimers came forward, but he was probably aware she had other lovers, or wanted them at least. After the two queens went between, he was clearly in shock, but not obviously more so than the other bronze-riders, and he showed sympathy to F'nor over Brekke's loss of Wirenth.
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