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Old Mar 19 2005, 05:03 PM   #41
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

I believe you have defined it already by your description of her actions toward people. There is no excuse for treating people so badly. She seems to be the type that expects understanding but is unwilling to give it in return.
mean: lacking elevating human qualities, as kindness and good will.
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Old Mar 19 2005, 05:10 PM   #42
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[/QUOTE=granath]T'gellan could've taken her down a peg or two, stopped her from going to meetings she had no business at, but he didn't. Whose fault is that?[/QUOTE]


Poor argument to place the blame on T'gellan. We are responsible for our own actions. It can never be his fault that she is a mean person. To believe otherwise is ludicrous. That's like saying Bush is giulty of murder, not the terrorists who flew the planes.
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Old Mar 19 2005, 08:03 PM   #43
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

boy oh boy...we read to get away from the world, so lets keep the world away, huh?
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Old Mar 19 2005, 10:00 PM   #44
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

There are not that many people in Pern that I don't like to read about, whoever they are. There are some like Toric, Kylara, Bitra, Tuella who I'm screaming and cursing at while I'm reading, but I still LOVE to read it because they all make such an engaging and interesting read. Just those people that you love to hate.
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Old Mar 20 2005, 10:45 AM   #45
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I, for one, like most of the charaters who are the main ones, and dislike those who your not suppose to.

Lessa - did everything she could to be a no person until she could regain her rightfull place. When her plans went wrong, she again did everything she could to make Pern safe.

Jaxom - There were many times I expected him to become more like his sire, Fax. When you grow up under those conditions one could think it would be easy to revert. Ruth was the main charater in WD, it was s/he who was able to do what was needed to complete the move to end Thread.

Toric - Now there is a person one could hate and have good reason to. He became power hungry. He wanted all of Southern for his own, and will stop at nothing to get it. Another Fax in the making, however, he was controled by Bendon and the rest of the Lords.

Mirrim - had she impressed a Gold instead of a green, I feel there would have been another Kylara all over again, to a point. Not in the sexual side, but the power hungry way. She was never controled for most of her life except by Berkee.
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Old Mar 20 2005, 04:06 PM   #46
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonbear

Ruth was the main charater in WD, it was s/he who was able to do what was needed to complete the move to end Thread.

Woah There...


i don't mean to be mean or anything, but what's up with Ruth being a she?
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Old Mar 20 2005, 04:43 PM   #47
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

Ruth is most definately male, but is infertile and has no interest in reproducing.
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Old Mar 21 2005, 06:30 AM   #48
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

Ruth is most certainly male - despite the name.
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Old Mar 21 2005, 06:39 PM   #49
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

Quote:
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Ruth is most certainly male - despite the name.


There should be female whites (particularly one named Aideth who mates with Ruth and they lay little white eggs and they hatch and Ryuu's dreams come true with little Ruths all over Pern and I think I am rambling too much and I wrote this somewhere else, I forget whether it is KT or MoM and I think I'd better stop now and.....yeah.)
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Old Mar 21 2005, 09:22 PM   #50
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

i'll admit to being thrown off but ruth being a male....i think that was why i didnt read WD until just a little while ago...that and Jaxom...i wanted lessa and i got jaxom...but it all worked out okay
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Old Mar 22 2005, 03:21 AM   #51
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeysrule


There should be female whites (particularly one named Aideth who mates with Ruth and they lay little white eggs and they hatch and Ryuu's dreams come true with little Ruths all over Pern and I think I am rambling too much and I wrote this somewhere else, I forget whether it is KT or MoM and I think I'd better stop now and.....yeah.)
Oh how I would LOVE to see that happen, but with Ruth being impotent, it never can also Ruth was pretty much a miracle dragon, because with Pernese genetics, most mutations are supposed to die instantly. But we can still dream!
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Old Mar 22 2005, 07:21 PM   #52
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"dream on....
dream on...."

sadly, its all we can do...
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Old Mar 22 2005, 07:28 PM   #53
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What about a fanfic?
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Old Oct 1 2005, 06:34 AM   #54
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[QUOTE=SecretFantasy85]In this thread "favourite unusual character" edith asks about unlikable characters that you like. But I have another idea to go along with this. What about characters that you're supposed to like, but end up hating.



I also loath Lessa. I know she's the main heroine and all but....there's just something about her personality that I don't like. She has an arrogant complex that I figured she wouldn't have after going through ten years of torture as a drudge. You'd think that her 'I'm of the Ruathan blood line' would've been beaten out of her at a young age. I think she's awesome for getting through that and all but, to be realistic? How many people wouldn't have been tramautised and crushed under those conditions? Especially a pampered 'princess' of Ruatha?

I agree she's abit arrogant but the reason she wasn't 'crushed' by her years as a drudge were because she held onto her values fiercely and she was strong enough in will to overcome it. Just imagine what it would've been like if she'd been 'crushed' and hadn't stood up to F'lar in Dragonflight?
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Old Oct 1 2005, 06:36 AM   #55
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[QUOTE=Anareth]Brekke. Jaxom. Aramina. For the reasons stated above.

I don't dislike Lessa. I think she held on to the Ruathan blood thing because she was focused on something practical--vengeance and destroying Fax. The people who get beaten down in that sort of situation are ones like Brekke, who'd have been totally destroyed in the same circumstances because they don't have the ability to come up with a goal and see it through. That a ten-year-old could create such a goal and set out a long-term plan to achieve requires some credulity, but it's not totally impossible. I get tired of her later after she becomes the Shrew of Benden, and especially when she's moping in Skies about the whole children thing, but while I'd never get along with her, I have perhaps a grudging admiration for her.

She wasn't really moping about it in Skies, well compared to what she was like in DQ
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Old Oct 1 2005, 06:40 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c_ris

I also find that F'lessan can be annoying after a while...

Oh yes F'lessan definitly annoyed me too. I mean, how many times can you say 'my dear green'? I would've turned around and socked him one after the first 12 times.
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Old Oct 1 2005, 06:50 AM   #57
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[QUOTE=Anareth]My only problem with Lessa is she basically ceases to be her own person after DF--she's F'lar's woman, and at times the hysterical shrew of Benden. She lets F'lar manipulate her too much (like that horribly condescending bit in ATWOP with the 'knock Ramoth up and Lessa's not going anywhere, ha-ha' moment with F'lar and Jaxom. If I were stuck with someone who treated me that way the only thing that would keep me from murdering him would be that Mnementh's a nice dragon.)


Go Anareth!! I totally agree with you there. When I read AtWoP and saw that part, I just had this insane urge to start beating the shiz outta F'lar! I'd have murderised him too if it hadn't been for Mnementh.
*Picks up a spiked bat and looks around evilly*
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Old Oct 1 2005, 06:53 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesserli
Lessa, Jaxom, Menolly, Aramina, Jayge, T'lion, Readis, Brekke, F'lar, F'nor...

Don't attack me, but I don't like a one of them. There's not a single round character in the 9th pass. Or really, in Anne's books at all. They're completely flat and one-dimensional. Oh, I enjoy the books for fluff reading, but the characters are not well written at all.

Feel free to attack me, but it's the simple truth (in my mind).
You are completely entitled to your opinions Jesserli.
Say whatever you want, even if I don't like it.
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Old Oct 1 2005, 07:02 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeysrule
What about a fanfic?
*groans* Monkeysrule, please don't try...I'm begging you...Though it would be interesting if Ruth mated and ol' Jax had to sleep wif someone else other than Sharra...
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Old Oct 3 2005, 10:24 AM   #60
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Surely he couldn't speed up Ramoth's cycle to induce an early mating flight? I just figured that he had counted ahead, knew Ramoth would be in clutch by then, and so wasn't worrying about Lessa going.
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Old Oct 5 2005, 09:33 PM   #61
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Lessa obnoxious? I don't think so. She did become a woman of strong opinion and she is a natural and good leader but I don't see her as obnoxious at all. Granted that not many people on Pern will cross a strong Gold queen rider who is also a HAD. Given what she went through because of Fax and the inept training she had after the hatching Lessa came out very well thank you very much.

Thank you Lary Lea O-G!!
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Old Dec 16 2005, 05:30 AM   #62
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Kylara and Mirrim.
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Old Jul 11 2006, 08:24 PM   #63
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Assuming we're talking about characters who aren't actually villains that we're SUPPOSED to dislike (Fax, for instance)...

Lessa seems to be a popular choice. I particularly like the phrase "the Shrew of Benden," which is an absolutely perfect description. Having read TWD first of all the novels, it was hard for me to enjoy DF/DQ just because I went into them not liking her.

Mirrim would be just like her if she had the authority to pull it off; as it is she comes across as just petty and mean.

I saw one person mention Piemur, who is okay in Drums, but whenever he shows up in one of the others I really dislike him. He's so smug and full of himself he makes Oldtimer bronzeriders look shy and self-effacing.

One I don't think I've seen yet: Robinton. I KNOW that's going to be an unpopular statement, so let me clarify that I don't mean Robinton the MasterHarper, I mean Robinton the god. It's most clearly visible in MHoP, though there's a noticeable tendency in that direction as early as TWD. The author is clearly head over heels in love with the character, and the writing suffers because of it. He's Mozart combined with Leonardo da Vinci and Winston Churchill with a side order of James Bond and some Indiana Jones to go.

Oddly, I don't dislike Brekke as much as many seem to, just because I don't think there's that much there to dislike. She seems to be there to provide some angst and because F'nor needs a squeeze to show he's a Man. Other than that she's pretty much a cipher.
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Old Jul 11 2006, 09:15 PM   #64
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I thank you for being bold enough to say what you did about Robinton in MHoP. It is true.
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Old Aug 14 2006, 11:41 PM   #65
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Wow! I liked Lessa in DQ. She was HARD, she admitted to killing several men. Just one HARD woman there, which makes F'lar thoughts on the rough love making and her total lack of indignation about it all make sense.

Now Jaxom, my little Wesley Crusher of Pern deserves much hate and a couple of prison fan-fics describing him as a recipient in a torture scene. TWD was the first book I read where the guy admits to raping his girl friend and then crys to his dragon about it. Deciding he would never see her again BECAUSE SHE LET HIM! Meaning to me that that's what he thought he was doing not what she thought he was doing. Which only goes to prove he is even more better scum!

Oh yeah, he wins the booby prize!
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Old Aug 15 2006, 12:04 AM   #66
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Surely F'nor ties Jaxom in that respect (a fact I just now realized, that they both essentially raped women who decided they liked it ).

By the way, welcome to the MoM forum, Teddy!
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Old Aug 15 2006, 04:24 AM   #67
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It usually causes problems if you interpret the values acceptable in a story through the politically correct lenses of today's world. Marital rape hasn't been a felony in law books for very long, and until comparatively recently, cops wouldn't intervene in domestic violence. The entire genre of romance literature (which Pern is, only disguised as soft science-fiction) is built on the concept of "good girls don't, until they're forced and then they do"... "No means no" only has meaning when women can be honest about their own sexual desires and say yes when they mean it and when men can expect to get an honest answer when they ask.
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Old Aug 15 2006, 07:04 AM   #68
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Very true Granath. But I've still never been able to wrap my head around the concept that Brekke and Corana enjoyed themselves rather than being traumatized by the situation -- and that a female author wrote it that way. Society may have accepted marital rape until recent times, but that doesn't mean the wives raped didn't react as for rape.
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Old Aug 15 2006, 07:48 AM   #69
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But you're still putting today's values on 1970's mores. Anne wrote both those scenes in the 70's, where 'rape' didn't have the same meaning it does today.

I remember a class I was in - not sure if it was sex education or English, where the teacher had her work cut out for her explaining about rape to a group of students who had read at least one if not more romance novels of the time. She explained about authors glorifying the act - where even though those scenes were supposed to be scenes of seduction, by having the heroine say "no", they immediately turned the seduction scenes into rape scenes.

Her example was something about a setting in front of a fire with a bearskin rug, Clark Gable, and a bottle of wine. That is seduction. The moment the woman says no, that is rape. That there is no such thing as "your words say no, no, no but your heart says yes, yes, yes". Yet pick up any romance book from that time and most will have these types of scenes.

If Anne were one of our contemporaries - writing the original trilogy today instead of in the 60's/70's, growing up with the morals we have today, I'm sure those scenes would be totally different.

But she's a product of her times, and even in her advanced years and knowledge, her view of the world has already been set.
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Old Aug 15 2006, 10:09 AM   #70
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Right but then we are not getting these hints from our values but actually from the books male characters. Wesley... I mean Jaxom admits his rape to Ruth. F'lar considers what he did to Lessa as bad as rape. So Anne is hinting we could use our values to judge these things. Otherwise the word would not have been used.

Plus I have another issue with F'nor... Like how he was gonna place his own brother into deep doo doo with the whole my Brown can get Brekke deal.
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Old Aug 16 2006, 10:18 PM   #71
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

Corana went along with it because Jaxom was her Lord Holder and as his mistress he might support any by-blows; Brekke went along with it because she had had a huge crush on F'nor since she first saw him on Search. She really didn't resist much! I think she wanted him but was afraid to admit it to herself.
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Old Sep 21 2006, 10:51 AM   #72
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

I have only read Dragonflight, Dragonsong, Dragonquest, Dragonsinger & Dragondrums from the Ninth Pass but I like both Brekke and Lessa.
I do not see Brekke as weak, both maybe she will be in later books?
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Old Sep 21 2006, 03:05 PM   #73
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A lot of people see Brekke as weak because she let Kylara walk all over her and let F'nor do what he wanted with her (despite the fact that she wants it too and is just afraid she will inhibit her dragon.)
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Old Sep 27 2006, 01:57 AM   #74
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It's funny, but I like mostly the ones I like (although they sometimes get on my nerves, just like people I know) but as far as outright dislike, Aramina (in DoP, RoP, and anything else she's in), and I think that's all. Sure, I wouldn't want to hang around, say, Wind Blossom on the regular, but Aramina messes with me to the point that I usually skip everything but the last chapter of RoP and all of DoP in my Pern cycle.
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Old Mar 13 2009, 05:22 PM   #75
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Quote:
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I have only read Dragonflight, Dragonsong, Dragonquest, Dragonsinger & Dragondrums from the Ninth Pass but I like both Brekke and Lessa.
I do not see Brekke as weak, both maybe she will be in later books?
Nope she get stronger she lives and any more would spill the rest of your reading.

I would say Toric Bull heading in a way, not quite like me. (I say more but some of would spill the rest of the reading on this post.
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Old Mar 14 2009, 11:08 AM   #76
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

The main character I dislike the most is Aramina...especially in Dolphins...I was surprised to see how many others dislike her as well...rather thought I was in minority.'
I tend to waffle a bit about Jayge...he tends to be more consistent and does seem to regret his loss of temper with Readis...Aramina doesn't want to hear dragons and then is upset when she no longer hears dragons. She wants to keep Readis from growing up and fulfilling his own destiny.
Off hand I cannot think of any other character I dislike..at least not a "good" character
I love Jaxom and Lessa. I am also fond of Menolly and even Mirrim. some of the dragon riders get merged in my mind as their names and roles are similar and I get them mixed up
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Old Mar 14 2009, 10:45 PM   #77
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

Some people are meant to be despised (Fax, Kylara, Meron, etc...) and you do despise them. Some people are meant to be despised, but you have a grudging admiration for them (Toric). I assume this question pertains to persons we're supposed to "like."

I don't care for Brekke at all. She is as terminally self-centered as Kylara, but in a much more subtle way. She brought her own ruin on her.

T'Bor is initially unlikeable for allowing Kylara to get out of hand, but he rehabilitates himself by his ruthlessness at Meron's deathbed.

Mirrim is irritating and obnoxious and in my wing or my Weyr she'd get herself braced right quick and often until she matured enough to apply a brain-mouth filter. I've got no problem with her competence or letting her take on more than a green's "normal" role, but her insubordination, insensitivity and tactlessness demand correction--particularly if she is permitted a greater role and responsibility. The two go hand in hand.

I'm sure I'll catch flak from his die-hard fans, but I can't stand Ruth half the time. Too affectionate, too understanding, too capable, etc..., it gets to be a bit much. This is a complaint some have about Jaxom, but Jaxom has an excuse. He's in a unique position where he actually would get the opportunities he has. He has literally been both raised and groomed for it--and he is mature enough not to rebel against it. Ruth, however, is a dragon, and the fact that he is tends to get a bit lost from time to time as Ruth behaves in very un-draconic ways. Mnementh is a much better dragon characterization. Ruth is too human-like.

Menolly I like young, but she can sometimes be overbearing in her more mature years, although this seems to taper off after she becomes a mother.

Piemur is a brat and a bit of an ingrate. He probably has some of these qualities for the requisite coming-of-age story-line, but he is a bit abrasive and unappreciative of his patrons in pursuing his course. Hopefully Jancis will beat some respect into him.

I never really cared for Moreta. She struck me as shallow and self-centered, and while she might have ended up doing something heroic, she's not someone I'd have particularly wanted to know.

Alessan wallowed in his grief like a first-class drama queen and lost whatever respect I had for him. Doesn't deserve Nerilka.

Aramina is weak and irrational. I feel quite sorry for her offspring, but I frankly don't like Readis any better than I like her. Jayge is suspect for letting Aramina behave as she does toward Readis. I also find T'Lion immature and uninteresting.

I found F'Lon shallow and loud and didn't like him at all.

It would be easy to hate Petiron, except I know a similar genius and their brains simply don't work like ours. That said, I still don't like him. The miraculous thing about Robinton is that he is able to communicate with more mundane thinkers rather than taking after his father.

Merilan chose to "run away" at various points and I don't respect people who do that in relationships. It's a form of black-mail and it's weak.

F'Lessan is lazy and I don't respect that. He shrugs off his heritage and doesn't really bother to exploit his potential except in his own interests.

Tai is uninteresting to me and reminds me too much of Brekke and Aramina. She's better than both, but not someone I think much of.

Zyst is unnecessarily authoritarian and bombastic and irritates the hell out of me.

Wind Blossom Ping is a pretentious and arbitrary fool who indulges behaviors and courses of action by whim, but finds convenient rationalizations for them.

Sean Connell is a domineering martinet.

I think that's all the one's I'm supposed to like but don't really.

Lessa I don't mind. Unlike some characters she matured beyond some of her petty characteristics. She has complete freedom, but doesn't feel compelled to flaunt it. She chooses to be "F'Lar's woman" as some complain, but if that's what she wants, what the hell is wrong with it?

F'Lar I have no problem with either. He's intelligent, cunning, and forthright, and if you think husbands never make joking remarks about things like "knocking Ramoth up" and if you think they honestly mean them in contempt or malice, think again. Parties in a mature relationship are not so thin-skinned. And parties in relationships constantly manipulate each other by virtue of their intimate knowledge of each other. If anyone thinks Lessa doesn't manipulate F'lar as much as he manipulates her, or make the occasional wry or sly or seemingly slighting observation about him to her intimates, you've got another think coming.

Someone complained that women are disliked for having characteristics that are admired in men, but I'm perfectly fine with Lessa, Sharra, Menolly (most of the time), Jancis, Leri, Nerilka, Desdra, and Tenna and find them infinitely superior to characters like Brekke and Aramina.

Frankly women enjoy an unnatural degree of deference with regard to their various stupidities and personality flaws. Call a man a jerk and some people might be surprised. Call a woman a jerk and everyone will gasp and wring their hands at your temerity. You can call a man a dick, but dare to refer to a woman by a couple of four-letter words for her genitalia and you'll be roundly reproached and never permitted in polite society again. Women get away with things every day that wouldn't be tolerated from a man. And just because a woman adopts certain behaviors of men, doesn't mean that she's less of a jerk than they are by doing so. Just because she's criticized for it, doesn't mean it's an attack on her womanhood. She's just an jerk, just like the men.
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Old Mar 16 2009, 03:18 AM   #78
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

Well, any female character in Todd's books, for starters. Mary Sues, the whole lot of 'em.

For Anne's work, Jaxom is pretty annoying at times, mainly because he mopes about how to prove he's a serious and responsible Lord Holder and proceeds to....not spend an iota of time managing his hold, leaving it mostly to Lytol and Brand to look after things.

I also got annoyed with Merelan in MHoP. Petiron was borderline abusing of her son, and she responds by coddling her husband's desires. She just felt weak for most of the book, turning to men to help her deceive her husband. Even when she yelled at him, it was hysterical and not a rational argument to change his behavior or even admonish him. How many times did Petiron just shake his head at her remarks? Maybe its just me....Robinton is lucky to have turned out as amazing as he had.
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Old Mar 17 2009, 01:21 PM   #79
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

The two main characters we're supposed to like, but that I don't are Jayge and Aramina. Aramina is fine in "The Girl Who Heard Dragons", but she is a wuss and uncaring in RoP. She doesn't even bother to tell those who care about her that she is alive, not taking their feelings into account. She goes off to the Southern Continent as pure escapism, and sleeps with Jayge just because he's good looking and saved her life. She also mollycoddles Readis in DoP and totally overreacts when he helps sentient life as he has been taught too. Jayge also falls in love with Aramina merely because she's physically attractive, knowing next to nothing about her, and then does anything she asks. He also has issues with Readis' treatment of the Dolphins.

I find most of the other main characters we're supposed to like, likeable, such as F'lar, F'nor, Lessa, Brekke, F'lessan, Tai, Jaxom, Sharra, Sebell, Menolly, Robinton, Readis, and others. I don't agree with blaming T'gellan for Mirrim, because excepting Skies of Pern she's a lot more mellow after T'gellan and she get together. Her lapse in DoP is understandable because she was told unexpectedly that she was pregnant, and in SoP because she was dealing with the re-building of an entire Weyr. Mirrim is more irritating in TWD, but she is a teenager at the time and dealing with being the only female dragonrider and the lead-up and aftermath of Path's first mating flight. That's a bad reaction to stress, but understandable.
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Old Mar 17 2009, 10:05 PM   #80
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Default Re: Unlikeable Main characters (was titled Favorite USUAL Character?)

I like Brekke. She's capable, she's compassionate. I can't fault her for being inhibited sexually; it's how she was raised. I love that she wanted to see girls riding green dragons again. She strikes me as a radical who doesn't realize she's a radical. Oddly, I like Kylara too. I wish Anne had done something more interesting with her.

I also like Mirrim, though that might be because she gives Jaxom a hard time in TWD. (I don't really dislike him. He just holds zero interest for me. I never cared about the Lord Holders. I can't even keep them straight half the time. I've been thinking lately that it might have been more interesting if someone like Felessan had Impressed Ruth.) Getting back to Mirrim... She was kind of obnoxious before Impressing Path, but can't help thinking her time as a weyrling exacerbated the problem. I doubt very many people gave her an easy time, and she probably felt that she had to prove herself constantly. So, I forgive her. Most of the time. And also, her Impression of Path is my favorite Impression scene in the series.

I never liked Jayge or Aramina or Readis. In fact, I remember the exact line that put me off Readis, and it's been about fourteen years since I read "The Dolphins of Pern"! It's when he tells Alemi that Aramina made his life jacket "with love in every stitch!" *GAG*

I'm having trouble thinking of anyone else. Most of the time, when a character annoys me, I direct my frustration at the author.

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