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Old Mar 17 2005, 08:56 AM   #1
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Default Dragonflight 2

OK... this section needs more questions please!!!

its the Weyrs

R'gul and Lessa- Do you think R'gul is trying to make Lessa completely subserviant?
Doe he underetimate Lessa completely
How does he try to control her through her education? for example leaving out the Ballad of Moreta's ride? (edith)

Is early 9th pass more like 1st pass in that there is more equality among riders- for example T'sum (a brownrider) is a wingleader? (edith)

Could the weyrs' jump forward (the one 12 turns earlier) explain the still warm fireplaces F'lar talks about when talking about sending the dragons back to High-Reaches? (edith)


PLEASE can I have more questions!!!!!
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Old Mar 17 2005, 10:30 AM   #2
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

Why doesn't F'lar and Mnementh fly Jora and Nemorth on her last flight? (c_ris)

Why won't R'gul let Lessa take up her 'traditional' position as Kerrper of the Records? (c_ris)

If the Weyrwoman and Weyrleader are suppossed to have equal status, then why was R'gul telling Lessa what to do, and why did she let him? (c_ris)
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Old Mar 17 2005, 10:46 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
OK... this section needs more questions please!!!

its the Weyrs

[B]R'gul and Lessa- Do you think R'gul is trying to make Lessa completely subserviant?
Doe he underetimate Lessa completely
How does he try to control her through her education? for example leaving out the Ballad of Moreta's ride? (edith)
ummm, how about "all of the above" I just think he was so used to Jora who did nothing and wouldn't recognize a backbone if she saw one that he expected all Weyrwomen to be like that (yes he should have known better, but...) I also think, he liked the idea of Weyrwomen (really not just women, men too) being under his power. He was someone who liked being in control and expected people to follow him - look how he acted after Ramoth's mating flight. He knew he was no longer Leader, but it didn't occur to him that no one would follow him anymore. By not teaching Moreta's Ride, by not letting Lessa even leave the Weyr, he was trying to make sure she was completely reliant on him. The worst part about it, is that I'm not sure he did all this consciously. He really thought that having a reliant, weak, controlled WeyrWoman aws the best thing to have. look at how shocked he is that his Dragon didn't fly Ramoth - he was honestly confused at her "ingratitude" for all he taught her.

Clearly he did underestimate her

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Originally Posted by edith
Is early 9th pass more like 1st pass in that there is more equality among riders- for example T'sum (a brownrider) is a wingleader? (edith)
T'sum was only a WingLeader because there weren't enough Bronzes to do the job. The riders are far from equal. As I wrote above, R'gul certainly didn't think anyone was his equal.
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Old Mar 17 2005, 01:52 PM   #4
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
Is early 9th pass more like 1st pass in that there is more equality among riders- for example T'sum (a brownrider) is a wingleader? (edith)
I thought T'sum was one of F'lars wingseconds?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonflight (Corgi)
"F'nor and T'sum, his own seconds, strode in" (p 165)

" "F'nor, T'sum" - F'lar turned to his own brown riders" (p 190)
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Old Mar 17 2005, 04:44 PM   #5
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
Is early 9th pass more like 1st pass in that there is more equality among riders- for example T'sum (a brownrider) is a wingleader? (edith)
Actually, I think, given the writing order, that the first pass weyr is more alike this 9th pass one. That is, given that Dragonflight was first, and that the idea of events and milieu of first pass Pern would have yet to be crystallised into the relevant books, then Anne was looking more towards cultural currents regarding equality as she wrote, more than towards an ideal of how things were in Pern.

At the same time, she was maintaining a clear division between social ranks within the holds (ie. Lord, guards and drudges) and the weyrs (ie. riders and support personnel). So that the equality seen among the riders is tempered by a clear setting-based social hierarchy.

Again, there are hardly any blue or green riders of prominence, and the impression gained is that, just as they are less prominent beside the larger bronzes, so too are the riders less prominent in daily weyr life. They form wings, not lead them.
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Old Mar 17 2005, 04:49 PM   #6
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by c_ris
Why doesn't F'lar and Mnementh fly Jora and Nemorth on her last flight? (c_ris)
I don't see this addressed within the book, so any speculations regarding this remain hypothetical.

I would venture to suggest that, given what we know from the text about Jora's character, that F'lar would have been intensely disinterested in her as a weyrmate; we may also consider the possibility too of age differences as well. There is also the probability that F'lar is to be considered, from the start, as Lessa's mate; he is, in effect, the romantic male lead, as she is the female, if we consider the romantic basis of the chief relationship.
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Old Mar 17 2005, 07:14 PM   #7
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

R'gul and Lessa- Do you think R'gul is trying to make Lessa completely subserviant?
Doe he underetimate Lessa completely
How does he try to control her through her education? for example leaving out the Ballad of Moreta's ride? (edith)

I think R'gul is so hidebound, he honestly thinks he's doing the right thing...And he thinks the way to do it is by keeping Lessa dependant on him, the way Jora was dependant on anyone who'd let her be. He's afraid of the Lords Holder turning on the last weyr. (which does happen)
Is early 9th pass more like 1st pass in that there is more equality among riders- for example T'sum (a brownrider) is a wingleader? (edith)

Could the weyrs' jump forward (the one 12 turns earlier) explain the still warm fireplaces F'lar talks about when talking about sending the dragons back to High-Reaches? (edith)

Definately!

Why doesn't F'lar and Mnementh fly Jora and Nemorth on her last flight? (c_ris)

Remember, they mention having to starve both Jora and Nemorth to achieve a half-way decent mating flight. I doubt a strong young bronze like Mnementh would care to actually mate with a gold who's that...unatractive.

Why won't R'gul let Lessa take up her 'traditional' position as Kerrper of the Records? (c_ris)

Because Jora didn't, and I think in MHoP, it's said her predecessor didn't spend as much time there as she should have, either. So, either R'gul was worried about letting Lessa have any leeway, OR he just thought it was beneath her station.

If the Weyrwoman and Weyrleader are suppossed to have equal status, then why was R'gul telling Lessa what to do, and why did she let him? (c_ris)

Lessa didn't really know any better. She had a lot to learn, and knew THAT...As far as R'gul... I get the feeling he didn't think women COULD be a man's equal..especially not HIS!



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Old Mar 17 2005, 07:57 PM   #8
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
OK... this section needs more questions please!!!

its the Weyrs


Could the weyrs' jump forward (the one 12 turns earlier) explain the still warm fireplaces F'lar talks about when talking about sending the dragons back to High-Reaches? (edith)

PLEASE can I have more questions!!!!!
I don't know. The second time I read that, I wondered if the warm fireplaces could also be from Bargen hiding in the Weyr for a while (MHoP). How long would fireplaces stay warm? Surely not twelve turns...




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Old Mar 17 2005, 08:04 PM   #9
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghyle
I don't see this addressed within the book, so any speculations regarding this remain hypothetical.

I would venture to suggest that, given what we know from the text about Jora's character, that F'lar would have been intensely disinterested in her as a weyrmate; we may also consider the possibility too of age differences as well.


I agree the age difference would be a factor. In fact, that's the impression I got from the book. Plus the older riders preferred R'gul.

Ah, found the lines I'd been thinking of.
Quote:
Dragonflight, Corgi p. 117
"...Somtines it is the one eeryone in the weyr wants to have win her. " He enunicatied his worlds slowly and clearly. "That was how R'gul got Hath to fly Nemortgh. The older riders anted R'gul. They couldn't stomach a nineteen-year-old over them as Weryleader, son though he was to F'lon. So Hath got Nemorth. And they got R'gu;l. They got what they wanted." F'nor.

With later flights, age would continue to favor R'gul. While F'lar waited for Lessa...



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Old Mar 17 2005, 08:34 PM   #10
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenrider Tresa
I agree the age difference would be a factor. In fact, that's the impression I got from the book. Plus the older riders preferred R'gul.

Ah, found the lines I'd been thinking of.


With later flights, age would continue to favor R'gul. While F'lar waited for Lessa...



Tresa
to my mind though, that explains the first, and even a cfew of the later ones. But by the time the Nemorth flew for the final time, then time would have changed, the population of the weyr would have changed, and those of the bronze riders. Why would Hath and R'gul thus fly Nemorth, and not the larger Mnementh?

And what happenned to the older bronze riders? The oldest we hear about seemsd to be R'gul, abut even he does not seem to be above 40 odd.
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Old Mar 17 2005, 09:23 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
[B]R'gul and Lessa- Do you think R'gul is trying to make Lessa completely subserviant?
Doe he underetimate Lessa completely
How does he try to control her through her education? for example leaving out the Ballad of Moreta's ride? (edith)
!!!
Was just flicking through the book. R'gul did teach Lessa the Ballad of Moreta's Ride. She even spends some time thinking about the inconsistencies between the Ballad and her life in the Weyr.
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Old Mar 17 2005, 09:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c_ris
Why doesn't F'lar and Mnementh fly Jora and Nemorth on her last flight? (c_ris)
The book mentions that the older Bronze riders prevented this from happening. it just doesn't say how. Maybe some of the other bronzes edged him out to make sure R'gul won or maybe it was like what they attempted during Ramoth's flight - they didn't call him back in when Nemorth blooded her kill. After all, he supposedly would have missed that flight if Lessa hadn't spoken to Mnemoth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c_ris
Why won't R'gul let Lessa take up her 'traditional' position as Kerrper of the Records? (c_ris)
she was Keeper of the Records. She mentions that when complaining to F'lar about not being allowed to go to the eye rock. Hmmmm, I don't know if it's mentioned at all whther she had the job under R'gul's leadership...


Quote:
Originally Posted by c_ris

If the Weyrwoman and Weyrleader are suppossed to have equal status, then why was R'gul telling Lessa what to do, and why did she let him? (c_ris)
They don't have equal status in the 9th Pass. Even F'lar doesn't treat Lessa as an equal until a later time. I'm not sure they were equal anywhere other than in DragonsBlood (one of the things I thought was off in that book). At the beginning of the second Pass Zulaya is thrilled when K'vin (?) finally asserts his authority and puts her in her place. Sorka certainly considers Sean to be in charge. Even Moreta sees part of her job to placate Sh'gall. He constantly berated her and no one thought twice about him being out of place to do that.
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Old Mar 18 2005, 06:07 AM   #13
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dux
Was just flicking through the book. R'gul did teach Lessa the Ballad of Moreta's Ride. She even spends some time thinking about the inconsistencies between the Ballad and her life in the Weyr.
He doesn't! Lessa REMEMBERS it from her dim and distant past-

in the 1st chapter of part two, Lesa' getting fed up about restriction and decide Ramoth could fly between, supported by the Ballad of Moreta's ride and she thinks...

Quote:
These two arrant idiots might deny the existence of that Ballad, but how had Lessa learned it if it did not exist? No doubt, Lessa thought acidly, for the same reason queens had wings!
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Old Mar 18 2005, 11:45 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edith
He doesn't! Lessa REMEMBERS it from her dim and distant past-

in the 1st chapter of part two, Lesa' getting fed up about restriction and decide Ramoth could fly between, supported by the Ballad of Moreta's ride and she thinks...
Ahhhhh - I missed that! Then I'll go back to my original position and say R'gul is the type who likes to be in charge and wasn't going to teach Lessa anything that might leave her to think she could question him.
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Old Mar 18 2005, 01:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonflight (Corgi) p 123
"When R'gul consented - and she would wear him down till he did - to allow her to take up her "traditional" responsibility as Keeper of the Records, she would find that Ballad. One day it was going to have to be R'gul's much delayed "right time." "
There you are!
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Old Mar 19 2005, 04:38 PM   #16
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Just before F'Lar and Lessa left for Benden Weyr, after Fax's death and after Lytol had been sent for to take over at Ruatha, F'Lar and F'Nor worried about the possiblity of Ruatha being attacked by some of it's neighbors. And much later on, it is mentioned that Lytol did indeed repel at least two such attacks.
My question is: Why would anyone want to attack Ruatha at that time, considering the shape it had been left in?
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Old Mar 19 2005, 05:15 PM   #17
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

Fax had set a precedent for controlling more than one hold at a time. Therefore, given the age of Jaxom, and it's relative weakness, Ruatha remained an easy enough target for expansionist holders, or for ambitious others.

This is why we read of the attacks being repulsed, but, since such are peripheral to the main story, not much is given on them.
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Old Mar 19 2005, 08:19 PM   #18
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenrider Tresa
I don't know. The second time I read that, I wondered if the warm fireplaces could also be from Bargen hiding in the Weyr for a while (MHoP). How long would fireplaces stay warm? Surely not twelve turns...




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I think in DF it's definitely meant to be the Weyrs in the past, since nothing that happens in MHOP had happened, since Anne hadn't written or thought of any of it at the time. And from the way F'lar talks about it, they've been checking for a long time--so it probably WAS twelve turns ago they found the warm fireplaces.
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Old Mar 20 2005, 11:30 AM   #19
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

Quote:
R'gul and Lessa- Do you think R'gul is trying to make Lessa completely subserviant?
Doe he underetimate Lessa completely
How does he try to control her through her education? for example leaving out the Ballad of Moreta's ride? (edith)


Actually, I don't thing R'gul does this out of bullying, out of wanting power, or out of anything other than ignorance. He was going by what he knew.

Jora was most likely trained by <that other queen who I can't remember from MHoP>. Caroline or something like that. *shrugs it off* Anyway, Jora was trained by C. Then C. dies, F'lon wins Jora's Weyrwoman flight and continues her training, but probably doesn't know what to train her on. IF the Weyrwomen did most of the goldrider training, then it's very possible that the men just didn't take any interest in it.

So then F'lon dies and R'gul takes over. Jora mourns F'lon, and becomes the slovenly, ill-kempt glutton. Which makes it worse. R'gul doesn't believe that Thread is coming back, and Jora doesn't care. So they both drift apart, don't talk, and R'gul is allowed to keep thinking what he wants.

Then Jora dies, and Lessa comes along. Now R'gul is faced with a strong-willed, stubborn woman who most likely has killed men before. He's probably a little afraid of her because of that, and also he has no clue what to teach her. So he does what he wants, what he *thinks* is right, and either purposely or accidentally actually keeps her from knowing things she should know.

In a way, I do feel sorry for R'gul, because he just didn't know, didn't understand. He never did anything to purposely hurt the Weyr, he was just doing what he thought was best. And it didn't help that F'lon was trying to stuff his ideals down everyone's throats - there are just some people who don't take that type of thing very kindly.
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Old Mar 22 2005, 05:45 PM   #20
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shalyn
[/b]Jora was most likely trained by <that other queen who I can't remember from MHoP>. Caroline or something like that. *shrugs it off* Anyway, Jora was trained by C. Then C. dies, F'lon wins Jora's Weyrwoman flight and continues her training, but probably doesn't know what to train her on. IF the Weyrwomen did most of the goldrider training, then it's very possible that the men just didn't take any interest in it.
Forget MHoP. There has only been one queen at a time for so long that legends of queen flying thread are "renounced as black heresy" (F'lar, DF). Weyrwomen don't train each other - there is only one at a time. (Maybe the queens instinctively lay a queen egg when they know their time to die is coming.)
R'gul did what had always been done. He was afraid of new ideas, especially now that the Holds were all stirred up because of Fax's death.


Is there a quote about "still warm fireplaces"? I can't remember anything about that, but I would assume that they meant the geothermal heating system was still functioning.
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Old Mar 22 2005, 10:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda
Forget MHoP. There has only been one queen at a time for so long that legends of queen flying thread are "renounced as black heresy" (F'lar, DF). Weyrwomen don't train each other - there is only one at a time. (Maybe the queens instinctively lay a queen egg when they know their time to die is coming.)
Much as I dislike/disregard MHOP, I find this hard to believe. No matter how small the Benden population, there would almost have to be some overlap between Weyrling queen and senior Weyrwoman at points, even if not for long. I find it even more implausible than MHOP to suggest that every queen for four hundred years only laid a gold egg in a clutch that, like Nemorth's last, hatched post-mortem. A more reasonable idea is that after a while of being the only Weyr on Pern, the Weyrwomen weren't quite sure what they were supposed to be doing. Someone who was a feminine version of R'gul, rather than a Lessa, would be more likely--someone who basically wanted to keep a low profile. Really, what did Weyrwomen in that interval, when it looked like dragonkind was dying out, actually have to do that was all that important? Consult a bit with the headwoman, who does the more practical hands-on running of the Weyr. Having two queens, a young one and old one, doesn't really change that's there's nothing for them to do. With widely-spaced clutches, it would only take one or two (the first, and then the one she half-assed trained) to basically have the chain broken.


Quote:
Is there a quote about "still warm fireplaces"? I can't remember anything about that, but I would assume that they meant the geothermal heating system was still functioning.
Yes, there is, in DF. And since the fireplaces don't run on the geothermal heat, that's probably not what it means. I think it's definitely meant as foreshadowing for the Weyrs coming forward (as it's in the middle of the book, parts written with Lessa's Ride in mind, rather than the stand-alone shorts.) I don't have it handy, but the implication of the conversation is that someone's using the abandoned Weyrs, but F'nor and F'lar don't know who. Then on Lessa's ride, the Weyrs basically just come forward over their own Weyrs until the last jump, when Lessa and at least a good portion of the Weyrleaders and Fort riders go to Ruatha to find F'lar. And they do stop and rest and cook, which would account for there being signs of recent use when F'nor and his scouting parties come looking for records.
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Old Mar 23 2005, 04:20 PM   #22
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how unlikely is it that F'nor would get there after they leave but before the ashes cool?

Does anyone have the quote?
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Old Mar 23 2005, 09:51 PM   #23
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Now that I live in a house with fireplaces, I still don't buy the ashes being warm for twelve turns. Maybe they're to assume that it was the Weyrs coming forward, but it wasn't, or something.

If anyone can say for sure ashes are noticeably warmer than the surrounding stone for that long, then I'll believe it. But brick fireplaces unlet for days and months feel cold.

Maybe because it's not the same type, I'll accept that.

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Old Mar 24 2005, 06:36 AM   #24
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda
how unlikely is it that F'nor would get there after they leave but before the ashes cool?

Does anyone have the quote?
Quote:
From DragonFlight
“Good point.” F’lar dragged out the ubiquitous charts. “Very good point. Where can we send them around here without causing anomalies by being present at one of the other Weyrs? The High Reaches are remote. No, we’ve found remains of fires there, you know, still warm, and no inkling as to who built them or why. And if we had already sent them back, they’d’ve been ready for today, and they weren’t. So they can’t have been in two places already….” He shook his head, dazed by the paradoxes.
It's not mentioned just who discovered the fires, nor when. I never really thought about it. Yeah, okay, it could've been from the Oldtimers, but it could just as easily have been from someone camping out in the Weyr overnight.
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Old Mar 27 2005, 12:08 PM   #25
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the reason I thought it could be the weyrs was that they left in a hurry cos Lessa was Then three times, it isn't mentioned when the fires were there but it IS mentioned that there was no sign of whoever lit them and High Reaches is isolated, hence the fact that F'lar thought about sending them back then!

So who's fault is it for the decline of the Weyrs?
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Old Mar 28 2005, 06:41 AM   #26
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Oh, I think R'gul is the biggest blame for the decline of the Weyr, practicing isolationism and non-interference, though going by MHoP, Benden was held in low regard even under S'loner. It certainly didn't happen overnight, and likely was a gradual decline starting 250 Turns before the ninth Pass--right in the middle of the Long Interval when Thread didn't fall as expected.

But R'gul certainly doesn't carry all of the blame, and I don't mean Jora, either. If the Weyr was really in that bad a shape, the other bronze riders should've taken action, tradition be Thread-scored! What woulda happened if Hath had won Ramoth's mating flight? Would F'lar have continued waiting until the next flight? Would he have allowed R'gul to make concessions to the Lords for the raids? Allowed Thread to fall over an unprepared planet? R'gul, traditionalist that he was, was all prepared to retake the Weyrleadership from F'lar when he felt F'lar had lost his mind--claiming the five empty Weyrs had come forward in time. Yet F'lar, who throws away traditions left and right once he becomes Weyrleader, follows a tradition almost to the Weyr's ruin.
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Old Mar 29 2005, 06:33 PM   #27
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Maybe they found fires when the young lord, was it Faroguy or Bargen, was hiding out in the Weyr.
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Old Mar 30 2005, 03:20 AM   #28
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Default Re: Dragonflight 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisG
But R'gul certainly doesn't carry all of the blame, and I don't mean Jora, either. If the Weyr was really in that bad a shape, the other bronze riders should've taken action, tradition be Thread-scored! What woulda happened if Hath had won Ramoth's mating flight? Would F'lar have continued waiting until the next flight? Would he have allowed R'gul to make concessions to the Lords for the raids? Allowed Thread to fall over an unprepared planet? R'gul, traditionalist that he was, was all prepared to retake the Weyrleadership from F'lar when he felt F'lar had lost his mind--claiming the five empty Weyrs had come forward in time. Yet F'lar, who throws away traditions left and right once he becomes Weyrleader, follows a tradition almost to the Weyr's ruin.
Indeed. Thank Faranth Pern had a caring author behind the scenes to make sure that everything came out all right in the end!

Now, that would have been a very interesting, very different Pern novel. Personally, I think F'lar would have waited, but I don't think Lessa would have... pity poor R'gul (or at least Hath) in such a scenario!
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Old Apr 1 2005, 10:11 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda
Maybe they found fires when the young lord, was it Faroguy or Bargen, was hiding out in the Weyr.

Bargen. And I said the same thing earlier. Believe Faroguy was killed, actually, not that it matters here.



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Old Apr 4 2005, 05:16 PM   #30
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Maybe the fires in High Reaches were made by some of those High Reaches Winter Garbs. There is a picture of one in DLG. I think they wonder or something. maybe they found their way up to the Weyr. Its a good explaination don't ya think.
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