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Old Aug 28 2009, 06:57 PM   #1
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Default Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

Thread title says it all. How do you come up with titles, and how do you not sound trite, gimmicky, or stupid?
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Old Aug 28 2009, 08:51 PM   #2
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Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

(Apologies in advance for the bolding...I found the italics were getting lost in the paragraphs, so I bolded titles instead, so they would stand out, since titles are the subject of this thread in the first place.)

I figure it's in the hands of the publisher. I've seen perfectly good (to me) titles changed by publishers. For example, Jacqueline Carey's duology Banewreaker and Godslayer started out as a single book with the title Elegy for Darkness which I think is a kickass name. But it got changed. Jim Butcher's first book Storm Front started with the title of Semiautomagic which is ALSO a kickass name, and I'm baffled why the publishers didn't like it. But they didn't, and the first book of the Harry Dresden series got named Storm Front (which is a boring name) instead.

That said...I tend to let title-picking go until my mind flips something to the surface. I've found that actively searching for titles rarely works, but the ones that pop up unexpectedly tend to be keepers.

For fanfic, I tend to name stories after what they are, or some turn of phrase. It's terribly mundane.

Examples:

Sackcloth and Ashes: This is a Talent fanfic revolving around AMC's character Afra Lyon, and the idea of what may have happened if a significant scene in the book Damia went a different way. AMC herself has a line in the book where Afra Lyon is asked if criminals and offenders on Capella go around wearing sackcloth and ashes, so the phrase translated quite well to a title for the story, since Afra is Mr. Methody Emo Boy throughout much of the story.

Boxed: A Story of Talent is, again, what it's titled...it's a story about Talents, particularly ones that have to overcome obstacles, somewhat in the vein of The Rowan or Damia or the collection of short stories To Ride Pegasus. Talent--it's being boxed up and contained! Title is exactly as advertised, lol.

The Skyboom: This is a deliberate misspelling of "Skybroom", mostly because there were "booms" involved when the dragon crashed into the skybroom. Something of a play on words, but overall simple.

Flight was named thusly because really, that's all it's about...firelizard's mating flights influencing the behavior of their owners. I'm not the only one to name a Pern fic this either, so it's not terribly original.

Coup was a follow up to Flight and A) follows the previously established one-word title, and B) takes itself from a phrase Menolly uses on Robinton from the prior story. "Do you want to see a coup?!" Again, mundane but related to the story.

The rest of my fanfics are the same.

For my original fic, I keep picking at things until something comes through that I like.

Examples:

The novel I'm currently working on is called American Goetia. It plays on several different levels...it sounds like the better-known titles American Gods, and American Graffiti, so it triggers something in the mind that says, "Hey, that sounds familiar!", that already identifies it with American culture. Second, it says American, and the push of the series as a whole is the development of an American subculture around magic users and the society they build as magic returns to the world. (One of the great benefits of American culture is that subcultures are, by and large, mostly accepted. With varying degrees of acceptance, but you won't have the government locking you up just for belonging to a subculture like a military dictatorship might. If people can run around in the KKK still, or gather as neo-nazis, pretty much anything flies even if people get frowny over some of it. We have gays and feminists and church cultures and hollywood culture and geek culture--subculture, subculture, subculture! Yay!) Third, it's a title form that's easy to carry forward, much like the Pern books start out as Dragonflight, Dragonquest, Dragonsong, Dragonsinger, Dragondrums, and so on and so forth. Fourth, Goetia is a type of magic that hasn't, yet, been glommed onto by another author, but which has historical meanings that are close enough to how I use magic in my novel.

Follow up title after American Goetia is American Anthame which is another play on words (Anthame looks like Anthem, but is actually a ceremonial knife for certain wiccan religions), and which follows the form of the first title. Goetia Kings is another follow up title--doesn't explicitly say "American" this time, but it sounds like a gang name, which suits me fine since the series is an urban fantasy anyway, and it touches back on "Goetia" again. Fauns and Roses is yet another, which sounds like "Guns and Roses" which again has that American, urban vibe (and another play on words). My main character is a Faun, who carries a gun named Rose, so it works perfectly.

All of those titles just came to me. Turns of phrases that, once my brain uttered them, were VERY QUICKLY written down by me before I lost them. These aren't things I can force myself to come up with. I'd like to apply science to it so I could reproduce it at will, but I can't.

Set in the same universe as the titles above I have Daughter of Lilith, Son of Eve, which, like my fanfic goes back to describing something, mainly a character that is half-demon. It riffs off of C. S. Lewis where the human children were called Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve. Lilith, in some forms of Christian mythology was the FIRST wife of Adam, the one that refused to obey him in all things (she wasn't submissive enough) and thereby was cursed to give birth to thousands of demons which (if I recall) were then slaughtered by angels. So not only did God curse her to give birth to monsters, then he killed them for kicks so she couldn't even have the love of monsters. All for not sleeping with Adam in the missionary mission, or being a submissive enough wifey to him. (Thus the name of the Lilith Fair, as well.)

In a different universe, I have The Dragon King's Wife, which is back to A) describing (the main character is indeed tapped to be the Dragon King's wife), and B) riffing, since it's not that far off from The Time Traveler's Wife in sound. I wouldn't be surprised if this one got a do-over from a publisher if I am ever so lucky as to get it bought by someone.

For short-stories, I have Farewell, My Dragon (which is in the same world as DKW), The Mail Magus, and The Uniform which are all descriptive. Mail Magus is a pun; it refers to a mage who delivers mail by using magical portals to get to and from places. The other two are...gasp, shock, awe!...descriptive again.

So, I think we can all conclude that I am not (perhaps barring the American Goetia set of titles, which I'm rather fond of) particularly imaginative when it comes to titles. And ultimately, it doesn't matter...a lot of the best books out there have mediocre names. Dune anyone? The Snow Queen? Dragonflight? The only one I've seen recently that was clever was The Lies of Locke Lamora. Most titles are fairly functional, and only become weighty when the book itself proves to be very, very good.

Edit: I lied. I also like The Dragon DelaSangre and The Woad to Wuin as titles but all that proves is that I like alliteration.

Edit 2: I lied again. I also like the names Old Man's War and The Android's Dream, but those don't really break the mold, do they? They're descriptive--if unusual types of descriptions--and the latter is a riff on Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.
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Old Aug 29 2009, 01:26 PM   #3
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

I try to title stories something that is going to tell you ABOUT the story. Sometimes, the working titles are terribly boring...The main character's name, for example. Blood Mist gives a clue as to what part of the book is about, Saving Abbie is the premise for the whole story....
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Old Aug 29 2009, 03:01 PM   #4
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Post Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

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Sometimes, the working titles are terribly boring
Oh god. Before coming up with American Goetia my working title for the longest time was The Goat Boy which is just...blergh. Blerg, I tell you!

Quote:
...The main character's name, for example.
I don't necessarily see these as boring...I'm quite fond of Anne McCaffrey's books The Rowan, the sequel Damia, and the book Killashandra, all of which are the names of key characters. But, perhaps it's the solidness of the books that gives the names weight.
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Old Aug 29 2009, 10:08 PM   #5
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

I sold a short with a title that seemed clever at the time. I now HATE it. ("Waking Nights." Vampire story.) It's lame.

Honestly, I'd have you change "American Goetia", too, both for obscurity, pronunciation difficulty, and also because it IS close to "American Gods" and it's not a good idea to invite comparisons with Gaiman.

I can also see why they dumped "Elegy for Darkness". It's got a particular mood to it that they may have found a little to...poemy-pretty, and they wanted something punchier.

I was totally with Del Rey changing "Red Star Rising." I knew it was a Pern book and my first thought was STILL "Tom Clancy novel."

"The Dark Is Rising". That's a good title. I also am quite fond of John Bellairs's almost penny-dreadful titles ("The House With a Clock in its Walls", "The Chessmen of Doom", etc.)
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Old Aug 30 2009, 12:07 AM   #6
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

I just found this thread and have come up one which I hope explain my idea for a Pern fan flic. Hoofs and Woods, I lol at it for it came out as a rhyme.
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Old Aug 30 2009, 01:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

Ginny--I like Hoofs and Woods too, although my mind is wondering if technically hoofs should be hooves.

Quote:
I sold a short with a title that seemed clever at the time. I now HATE it. ("Waking Nights." Vampire story.) It's lame.
Well, it fits the genre. But no, not the best title ever. Heh.

Yay for titling-at-3-am-in-the-morning?

Quote:
Honestly, I'd have you change "American Goetia", too, both for obscurity, pronunciation difficulty, and also because it IS close to "American Gods" and it's not a good idea to invite comparisons with Gaiman.
If it were only American Gods that it sounded like, I'd sadly agree and hunt for a new name, but since in pronunciation it sounds closer to American Graffiti I think it's more like three being a party, rather than it merely being too-close-for-comfort to Gaiman's long, long shadow. I can see Goetia being a pronunciation difficulty (although it's go-ee-tee which is fairly simple once you know it), but at the same time it's a real word, and I find I like titles with interesting words in them. The words "American" and "Goetia" aren't two you really expect to see paired together.

Quote:
I can also see why they dumped "Elegy for Darkness". It's got a particular mood to it that they may have found a little to...poemy-pretty, and they wanted something punchier.
Yeah, but Jacqueline Carey (pre Santa Olivia at any rate) was pretty much KNOWN for her blue prose at the time. In fact, Elegy for Darkness pretty much fits her style perfectly. So I'm unsure why that tile would have hurt her sales much.

Also, Godslayer was already the name of a published fantasy book by a not-unknown author. I'm not sure I would trade a serviceable, unused name for a punchy already-owned name.

Oh well. Not like it matters at this late date, except to perhaps show that titles are not a science, and they probably don't have as much impact as anyone would like to believe.

Quote:
I was totally with Del Rey changing "Red Star Rising." I knew it was a Pern book and my first thought was STILL "Tom Clancy novel."
Agreed. It sounds very military.

Quote:
"The Dark Is Rising". That's a good title. I also am quite fond of John Bellairs's almost penny-dreadful titles ("The House With a Clock in its Walls", "The Chessmen of Doom", etc.)
Agreed on all three, good, interesting titles.

Here's another that I like: Happy Hour of the Damned. I can't stand the book itself (I want to spork the main socialite-zombie-girl through the eyes), but the title rocks.

Bright of the Sky is interesting too, as a title. Not a bad book either.
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Old Aug 30 2009, 01:11 PM   #8
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

Hmm... Another over-used title is Night Watch which has seven seperate books listed on Wikipedia.
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Old Sep 2 2009, 01:28 AM   #9
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Sometimes, I just had to bulls--t it, and even then titles were subject to change.
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Old Sep 2 2009, 08:28 AM   #10
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

My titles are not all that original. Holdless for a fanfic story about a family made holdless by one of Lord Fax's raids. It was originally called "One Dark Night," which is ridiculous, boring, and unoriginal. Besides, I already had a story called "One Dark Night," which is also known as "It was a dark and stormy night," - One of those things you trot out when you're telling stories to kids at bedtime, and it's time to stop. The whole object of the story is that it is circular, and boring!

Most of my other stories are known by the name of the principal character, except for The Hally Stories. In that case, Hally is not the protangonist, and you're half-way through the story before anybody knows who Hally is, or why his (her) stories are so important to the protagonist and the galaxy he lives in. By that time, the protagonist has been close to being murdered several times, just trying to get hold of the diaries that the Hally Stories are in. Trouble is, it's a whodunnit and I don't know whodunnit, because my prime suspect just got murdered. My fault for letting the characters take over the story!

The whole argument about what to call a story might be a bit pointless. The children's book that I have had published resulted in an argument about what it was going to be called. The publishers wanted to call it Peter's adventures in the afterland and back again. (It's a ghost story) I objected. Several letters went backwards and forwards between California and Waihi Beach, New Zealand, before we hit on the compromise, Peter's Great Adventure. It got remaindered.
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Old Sep 3 2009, 08:50 PM   #11
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Sometime my come from my POV, which can change and need a little more information to understand them. For they come from the enverment around me.
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Old Sep 7 2009, 10:10 PM   #12
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I am currently reading a book on wilderness survival physcology called When All Hell Breaks Loose: The Art of keeping your ass alive!. I just had to share that- is that not the most attention-grabbing title ever?

No, they didn't have it at the public library. . .

I shall return- this is an interesting topic!
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Old Oct 27 2009, 08:32 AM   #13
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

Has anyone considered looking at quotation titles, which are rather popular as it happens. A particular one that I love, as a title and as a book, is Golding's Darkness Visible -- from Milton as it happens, and I am sure that you can think of a few. I find that titles for poems can be a challenge, especially first thing in the morning, so I tend to either quote from the poem or use a descriptive title that incorporates the poem form, as in a recent piece that was published earlier this month, "The Free Verse Sonnet for Martin Andersson".
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Old Oct 27 2009, 11:41 AM   #14
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I'd rather be original and unless there is a very good reason for it would not use a title that borrows/quotes another work. People might get the wrong idea.
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Old Oct 29 2009, 04:58 AM   #15
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How about nonfiction titles? I'm embarking on a career of critical writing about Australian writing, and I would love to hear your thoughts about good ideas for titles that would suit nonfiction. For example, the dull working title of my next book, after this year's Nano draft, will be A Critical Study of David Brooks -- it would work as a subtitle, but what sort of title, then, would you suggest?
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Old Oct 29 2009, 06:25 AM   #16
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"Catchy" titles for non-fiction works are heavily dependable on the content and/or the person('s life).

Like my last published genealogy, of which I wasn't the author but the editor and pubisher) was of the Den Arend family. Translated that means the Eagle, so the title became "Through Time on Eagles' Wings". The subtitle of coure needs to tell which family, what kind of genealogy and preferabley also the period.
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Old Oct 29 2009, 04:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

How about 'Cold, Clear Elegies'?
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Old Oct 29 2009, 05:09 PM   #18
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"Catchy" titles for non-fiction works are heavily dependable on the content and/or the person('s life).

Like my last published genealogy, of which I wasn't the author but the editor and pubisher) was of the Den Arend family. Translated that means the Eagle, so the title became "Through Time on Eagles' Wings". The subtitle of coure needs to tell which family, what kind of genealogy and preferabley also the period.
I understand what you mean. With many series it is relatively easy: the author's name suffices, but this will be an independent book, the one that I shall write.
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Old Oct 29 2009, 05:11 PM   #19
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How about 'Cold, Clear Elegies'?
interesting idea, one which would suit a study of David's poetry alone, however I will be covering both his fiction and his poetry, so I have to take into account both. Kind of like referencing Anne's work outside of Pern equally with Pern, hence the need to destress 'dragons' in the title, if you get my drift.
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Old Oct 30 2009, 03:38 AM   #20
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Presumably, however, his prose is also single-sighted and elegiac?
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Old Oct 31 2009, 02:19 AM   #21
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[QUOTE=D. M. Domini;149419]Ginny--I like Hooves and Woods too, although my mind is wondering if technically hoofs should be . <sinp> Thanks that was a working title.
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How about 'Cold, Clear,<sinp> North'?
You know that one work for High Reaches Weyr and Hold. Idea brewing in the back of my mind
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Old Oct 31 2009, 04:49 PM   #22
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Presumably, however, his prose is also single-sighted and elegiac?
Actually, no: his prose varies, with a strong streak of the fantastic in his earlier work. I have yet to read his latest novel, though.
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Old Oct 31 2009, 04:52 PM   #23
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I've just heard a nice quote by one Ken Campbell ...

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Most literature is (basically) about people coming in and out of doors. Science fiction deals with everything else.
He's the only person on record who set to buy a computer and came back with a parrot!
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Old Nov 29 2009, 02:27 PM   #24
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To answer the title question: hard! I mostly, while saving the work, save it under the name of the main character, or under X, Z or Y, and later change the title, when the book is already going and I actually have an idea what I’m doing with it. But, even then, I would change the title a couple of times. For example, I had a book, and, all the while I was writing it, it was under the name I supposed it would stay, and then, as I was writing the last chapter, I changed the title, because I wanted it to become a series of book, and the title of the first book didn’t go with it. Now, I use that title of the first book, although all the others have their under titles (like AMC’s every Pern book is Dragonriders of Pern, but has a different and self title).
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Old Dec 5 2009, 06:35 AM   #25
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

The current working title of my story about my family coming to New Zealand in the 1860s is Christmas under a Titree Bush - Not original, but that's where they spent the night, with no food, no extra supplies, and a six month old baby.
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Old Dec 5 2009, 08:04 AM   #26
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Quite appropriate since the titree is described as "snow white"
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Old Dec 5 2009, 04:07 PM   #27
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

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The current working title of my story about my family coming to New Zealand in the 1860s is Christmas under a Titree Bush - Not original, but that's where they spent the night, with no food, no extra supplies, and a six month old baby.
You know, Vyon...the title sounds interesting, though. Just gotta make sure the title art includes a Titree Bush, since I (for one) have no idea what that is!
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Old Dec 5 2009, 04:44 PM   #28
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You know, somehow, that seems to fit right in with the Christmas story (even if their baby WAS 6 months rather than new born). Refugees with nowhere to stay, no job ...
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Old Dec 14 2009, 08:43 PM   #29
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

My current story-when-I'm-not-working-on-my thesis-project needs a new title, and I was hoping y'all could help. I've actually been meaning to ask this for a while, just hadn't gotten around to it yet!

Anyway, it is Pern fanfic ('cause I need a break!) and it's currently called "Dragonrider with a Difference" While the title is descriptive, it's soooo boring, not to mention slightly tongue-tying.

So. Any ideas?
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Old Dec 18 2009, 11:42 PM   #30
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

Maybe you could use the character's name instead. I really hate titles when I'm writing. Sometimes I just save it under a general name idea before coming up with one. Although, I did write a fanfic for Star Blazers (Space Crusier Yamato) with the title first and the chapters grew from that.
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Old Dec 25 2009, 06:47 AM   #31
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Christmas under a titree bush,

The date was 24th December 1862

Reverend Samuel Edger had left England in May with his wife and five young children, he'd been hired as sole chaplain to a new settlement in New Zealand. (So had two other Ministers, each one thought they were the sole chaplain.)

The ship got dismasted on the way out. About 2/3 of the passengers defected when they reached Auckland. The rest were dumped a mile short of the landing place deep in Auckland's Waitemata Harbour. There they discovered that the transport that they had paid for before they left England had not been organised, and they had to pay for it again. Rev. Edger left his wife and three of his children in lodgings and went ahead with two of the older children to organise somewhere for them to stay on the land that had been allotted to them. One of those children left a very vivid description of their trip, their first encounters with the Maoris and their arrival at their new home. It was a fire, lit to dry enough ground to pitch a tent.

"Romance had faded into reality."

Just before Christmas he went back to get the rest of his family. They got separated from the dray with the food and shelter, hence the night was spent under a titree bush, while the dray arrived the next day. They spent all of Christmas day walking between Riverhead, on the Waitemata harbour, and Helensville, on the Kaipara harbour. (I think it's about 60 miles.)

There are several varieties of titree - you get titree or manuka oil from them. I'd make it the one that overhangs our house, a brownish looking tree with masses of very tiny white flowers at Christmas time. For weeks it "snows" drifts of minute white petals.

P.S. The two youngest girls became the first and third women to get their MA degrees in the British Empire. And I got Lilian's age wrong - she'd have been almost a year old, since my family tree programme has her birthday as 08-Jan-1862. I was recently given Edger's diary, and have had his eldest daughter's diary for a long time.
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Old Dec 29 2009, 06:25 AM   #32
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

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Christmas under a titree bush,

The date was 24th December 1862

Reverend Samuel Edger had left England in May with his wife and five young children, he'd been hired as sole chaplain to a new settlement in New Zealand. (So had two other Ministers, each one thought they were the sole chaplain.)

The ship got dismasted on the way out. About 2/3 of the passengers defected when they reached Auckland. The rest were dumped a mile short of the landing place deep in Auckland's Waitemata Harbour. There they discovered that the transport that they had paid for before they left England had not been organised, and they had to pay for it again. Rev. Edger left his wife and three of his children in lodgings and went ahead with two of the older children to organise somewhere for them to stay on the land that had been allotted to them. One of those children left a very vivid description of their trip, their first encounters with the Maoris and their arrival at their new home. It was a fire, lit to dry enough ground to pitch a tent.

"Romance had faded into reality."

Just before Christmas he went back to get the rest of his family. They got separated from the dray with the food and shelter, hence the night was spent under a titree bush, while the dray arrived the next day. They spent all of Christmas day walking between Riverhead, on the Waitemata harbour, and Helensville, on the Kaipara harbour. (I think it's about 60 miles.)

There are several varieties of titree - you get titree or manuka oil from them. I'd make it the one that overhangs our house, a brownish looking tree with masses of very tiny white flowers at Christmas time. For weeks it "snows" drifts of minute white petals.

P.S. The two youngest girls became the first and third women to get their MA degrees in the British Empire. And I got Lilian's age wrong - she'd have been almost a year old, since my family tree programme has her birthday as 08-Jan-1862. I was recently given Edger's diary, and have had his eldest daughter's diary for a long time.
Nine bit at I've got a what I call a betwen in blank what is a dray a wagon? For that what they are call in DK/DF?
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Old Dec 29 2009, 06:47 AM   #33
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

A dray is a primitive wagon, strong and heavy, without a top. It was often just a platform, with wheels, and the shafts for pulling. The relevant burden-beasts were often oxen. They can pull more than horses and don't need special food.

The road was a rutted, muddy track, which zig-zagged over high ridges and deep valleys, most of which would be covered with titree and tree ferns. The family left late on the afternoon of Christmas Eve, slept under the titree bush the first night, at a remote farmhouse the second night, and a large farm on the third night.
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Old Jan 1 2010, 05:48 AM   #34
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A dray is a primitive wagon, strong and heavy, without a top. It was often just a platform, with wheels, and the shafts for pulling. The relevant burden-beasts were often oxen. They can pull more than horses and don't need special food. <sinp> that why they were used alot to help setttle countries before/during the Iron Age.

The road was a rutted, muddy track, which zig-zagged over high ridges and deep valleys, most of which would be covered with titree and tree ferns. The family left late on the afternoon of Christmas Eve, slept under the titree bush the first night, at a remote farmhouse the second night, and a large farm on the third night.
Thanks for information, I got an idea for a few fan flc I using the Quote to give you what I've got so far.
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Old Dec 23 2010, 08:21 PM   #35
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I am currently reading a book on wilderness survival physcology called When All Hell Breaks Loose: The Art of keeping your ass alive!. I just had to share that- is that not the most attention-grabbing title ever?

No, they didn't have it at the public library. . .

I shall return- this is an interesting topic!
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Old Dec 4 2011, 05:08 AM   #36
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Default Re: Coming Up With Titles That Don't Suck

Seems like some U.S. publishers just can't resist editing titles or lines in the stories. I remember a series of dark (teen, I suppose) novels dubbed the Mortal Engines Quartet, after the title of the first book.

The setting was a distant future where the world had pretty much been destroyed the world by a war that lasted for an hour (a result of over-the-top WMDs and germ warfare), and society had slowly rebuilt itself. By the time the stories began, people were living on massive moving cities that were constantly having to destroy and devour one another to obtain fresh fuel. The U.S. publishers focused on this aspect and dubbed the series the Hungry Cities Chronicles, which in my opinion just sounds juvenile.
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Old Dec 6 2011, 11:31 AM   #37
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As I started the thread...the book I've been kicking around is now "Strange Roads" (from Kipling's "The Song of the Dead") and the overall series is called "Omens in the Night" (from the omina noctis, the Roman belief in dreams as messages.) The sequel is "The Demon that is Dreaming" (from Poe), as I think I'm going with a poetry theme (and trying VERY hard not to just use Kipling alone, but he just has sooo many good ones...)
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Old Dec 8 2011, 12:01 AM   #38
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As I started the thread...the book I've been kicking around is now "Strange Roads" (from Kipling's "The Song of the Dead") and the overall series is called "Omens in the Night" (from the omina noctis, the Roman belief in dreams as messages.) The sequel is "The Demon that is Dreaming" (from Poe), as I think I'm going with a poetry theme (and trying VERY hard not to just use Kipling alone, but he just has sooo many good ones...)
Those all sound wonderful.
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