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Old May 4 2009, 11:39 PM   #81
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Ummm.. just because Pern is a parallel to Terra doesn't mean a plant couldn't have evolved there that is easy to grow and produces a blue dye!

And, also, in Dragonquest, just before Robinton goes to the wedding at Telgar, it is stated that green dye is easily obtained from fellis. It also states that Robinton thinks they should do away with the tradition of green being unlucky.

Silkworms, according to Dragonsdawn, didn't have any Pernese predators, but mulberry bushes, their only food source, weren't viable on Pern.
RE: Your first paragraph--reread what you quoted, especially the parts about Old Hippie and P'ter.

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Old May 4 2009, 11:40 PM   #82
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I've never really understood why, for many people, fantasy tales always take place with a background of wimples, bliauts, doublets, hose and chemises. (I know Pern is supposed to be sci-fi.) It is a good point - why would future societies revert to such costumes? Simple styles that are hardy, easy to take care of and cheap to manufacture would be the norm for 90%+ of the population.

Yes, Lady Holders would have more elegant dressings made of more expensive and laborious techniques and materials.

I think that for outdoor workers, hats would make absolute sense, and not just in tropical areas - the summer sun in Tillek's fields could, no doubt, get very warm indeed. I think for most agricultural workers some sort of conical straw hat would make an appearance. Woollen hats for Northern workers and fishermen, and possibly cheches/tagelmusts for those in Istan and Igen deserts. Interestingly, this article from Wikipedia has a mention of indigo permanently dying the skin over time ......
Concur on both clothing and hats.
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Old May 4 2009, 11:41 PM   #83
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Gidget...So glad to see you again...yes I will agree that most of the gentry would be wearing comfortable clothes that woudn't hinder them being able to work easily. I also believe that hats would have been worn by many different Pernese for their everyday comfort...but if they wore hats for everyday...would they also have them for fancier occasions? So many different societies developed fancy head coverings...it has me wondering if Pern did as well?
For some reason I see a lot of Green being worn in the everyday clothing...mostly because I think it would be extremely easy to get a hold of even for out of the way holders to use.
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Old May 5 2009, 05:14 AM   #84
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Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

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Gidget...So glad to see you again...
Thank you It's been a while ......

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yes I will agree that most of the gentry would be wearing comfortable clothes that woudn't hinder them being able to work easily. I also believe that hats would have been worn by many different Pernese for their everyday comfort...but if they wore hats for everyday...would they also have them for fancier occasions? So many different societies developed fancy head coverings...it has me wondering if Pern did as well?
As has already been mentioned, some sort of filmy scarf was used by the upper crust girls (well, at least Pona and her crew). However, if hats were everyday and worn by dirty peasants, then perhaps hats wouldn't be quite so prevalent in the upper societies? One of the reasons why, in 15thC Italy, rich women stopped wearing covering headgear (which, incidentally, women wore because in the bible it states "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven" 1 Corinthians 11:5) was to show off their intricate braids (shown off because it obviously meant you could afford to employ somebody to groom you and that you didn't have to work all the day long for money).

In DF when Fax is showing F'lar and F'nor to his ladies it is noted that "[s]ome of the covey had not all winter long made much use of water, judging from the amount of sweet oil gone rancid in their hair." I take this to imply that their heads were bare. I know Fax was trying to insult F'lar, but I don't think that that applies to the appearance of his women.

On a matter of colour, it states that Gemma was "blue-gowned" and that outside "there was not a gowned figure to be seen".

I know DF has bred continuity errors with later books, but the written word is the written word.

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For some reason I see a lot of Green being worn in the everyday clothing...mostly because I think it would be extremely easy to get a hold of even for out of the way holders to use.
Perhaps for everyday wear amongst the holders and farmers etc? Workwear, perhaps, but not finery for weddings and Gathers? After all, people mainly ward off bad luck when something momentous is happening.
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Old May 6 2009, 01:48 AM   #85
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Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

I think we can state with surety that if hats were fashionable, Pona and company would have been wearing them!
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Old May 6 2009, 07:41 PM   #86
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Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Gidget and Brenda...I think that both of you are probably right. I do remember several places in the books where a womans braided hair is mentioned...along with the extreme lengths of their hair. I think that perhaps the beauty of their hair and possible ornaments worn it is, would have been more Pern style than any head coverings...especially for any of the special occasions.
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Old May 7 2009, 03:16 AM   #87
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Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Brenda: the same argument goes for Groghe's sons and fosterlings.
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Old May 7 2009, 06:04 PM   #88
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Good point.
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Old May 7 2009, 10:25 PM   #89
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As to my comment from DD: Pg.49 (USA paperback)when Sorka exits the shuttle: ""funny bluish bushes" and "the bushes were more blue than green".
The hats used in the crosssing were plastic "coolie" hats, as remembered from one of the colonist. This is in the collection of shorts in the USA printing which I believed was called "The Crossing" (which also contained the story of "Red's Ford").
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Old May 8 2009, 12:26 AM   #90
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As to my comment from DD: Pg.49 (USA paperback)when Sorka exits the shuttle: ""funny bluish bushes" and "the bushes were more blue than green".
The hats used in the crosssing were plastic "coolie" hats, as remembered from one of the colonist. This is in the collection of shorts in the USA printing which I believed was called "The Crossing" (which also contained the story of "Red's Ford").
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Old May 8 2009, 12:38 AM   #91
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Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

They where in the short story Dolphin's Bell I've read one copy which had images in too.

I recall something too. it also related to RoP: Something to the remark that you never knew when something used on old earth can used on Pern. CoPFF: Dolphin's Bell. Also some of the workers atLanding they used a version to keep cool while working in the heat there, Its when Robinton and his jouryman I can't spell names tonight! (I can think/say the name just can't spell it) where exploring the "old flight tower" site.
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Old May 11 2009, 10:23 AM   #92
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Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

Hats - especially "straw hats" are not too hard to make. Here I would use flax (looks like ten foot high grass) and flat-braid it, then coil the braids up and sew them in a spiral. When I lived on Norfolk Island they did the same thing with a tough grass off the cliffs. I can see field-workers and anybody who is going to be outside wearing something like that, along with homespun, brownish or greyish or cream-coloured tunic and loose pants. Whatever is the natural colour of the fibre that they are using.

Good clothes were obviously too precious to waste - have you noticed how often they are recycled? Somebody turns up - like Menolly or Piemur - and the Headwoman makes straight for a chest, which has spare clothes in.

Nobody's mentioned mordant. It doesn't matter how bright your plant dye is if it doesn't stay on the fibre. We don't know what the Pernese might have had to fix dyes with, or what colours the mordant might have worked on.

It makes sense that easily made natural dyes might be different between Earth and Pern too. It's not a matter of whether or not our science applies, it's a matter of what's available. Red is mentioned as hard to make, but it was one of the three natural available dyes used by the Maori before settlement by Europeans with all their trade-goods. The colours were red, black, and yellow. Green and blue were not available at all.
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Old May 11 2009, 11:55 PM   #93
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Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

V'yon...you make some very interesting points...I agree that most all of the smaller holds would be using natural dyes for most all of their clothings. I could see a small hold buying pakages of harder to obtain dye colors from the traveling traders, to use on some of their gather clothes. I could see a holders wife dying home made threads, and using them to embroider fancy stitches on the families gather clothes.
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Old May 12 2009, 02:50 AM   #94
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V'yon...you make some very interesting points...I agree that most all of the smaller holds would be using natural dyes for most all of their clothings. I could see a small hold buying pakages of harder to obtain dye colors from the traveling traders, to use on some of their gather clothes. I could see a holders wife dying home made threads, and using them to embroider fancy stitches on the families gather clothes.
I think you're right, Lady M! Especially with the part about fancy stitiching and embroidery on clothing.

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Nobody's mentioned mordant. It doesn't matter how bright your plant dye is if it doesn't stay on the fibre. We don't know what the Pernese might have had to fix dyes with, or what colours the mordant might have worked on.
You're right vyon. Mordants .... Quick trip to Wikipedia (hey, it's early in the morning and I have to leave for work in 10 minutes!) ..... Tannic acid from certain broad-leaved trees could be used. Possibly iffy due to the reduced number of tree plantations, but perhaps skybrooms have something similar? Alum is a natrually occuring substance and was used in Pliny's time, so I don't see a problem with the Pernese making use of it. The most easily available would have been sodium chloride - simple salt. No reason why Pern doesn't have salt deposits, right? Could've used other metallic salts too. They were mining and could've used some of the tin, aluminium, iron or copper to make metallic salts. I don't think that's beyond the abilities of 9th Pass Pern.

I think that in AtWoP there's a reference to somebody getting new clothing patterns from AIVAS? Could have been SoP. I would think that if the person was that interested then perhaps a query about dyes and mordants would've been forthcoming also.

And let's not forget about the vats of old urine used in the dyeing process too!

This article also seemed quite interesting .....
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Old May 12 2009, 04:02 AM   #95
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Mordant?

And here I was, thinking that author Stephen Donaldson had come up with the word
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Old May 12 2009, 08:27 PM   #96
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Gidget...And let's not forget about the vats of old urine used in the dyeing process too!
EEEEWWWWEEE...thats just nasty sounding...YUCK!!!
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Old May 13 2009, 01:32 AM   #97
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EEEEWWWWEEE...thats just nasty sounding...YUCK!!!
So would the brains of beast, in tanning, and or dying too.
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Old May 13 2009, 02:36 AM   #98
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Dog faeces was used in the tanning industry too ...... Maybe somebody has the lovely task of clearing up after the spit dogs and any other canines and sending it all on to the tanners?
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Old May 13 2009, 09:25 AM   #99
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So how do they get leather in Harper blue?

I'm sure the traders would carry dyed goods, threads, laces and braids. We just haven't heard about them because Anne's protagonists are more interested in bubbly pies and dancing to Harper music.

But I think I'll leave leather dyeing to the drudges!
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Old May 13 2009, 01:19 PM   #100
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So how do they get leather in Harper blue?

I'm sure the traders would carry dyed goods, threads, laces and braids. We just haven't heard about them because Anne's protagonists are more interested in bubbly pies and dancing to Harper music.

But I think I'll leave leather dyeing to the drudges!
Terran example from c.1558 (as written by Alexis of Piedmont):

"To Die Skynnes Blewe, or of the Colour of Asure
Having fyrst well washed the skinne, and than wronge him, take the berries of walwort, and elderberries, and seeth them in water, wherin Roche Alome was dissolved, pass him once thorowe this water and let him drie, than pass him again thorowe the same water, and being wiped and dried againe, wash him with cleere water, than scrape out that water with the back of a knife, and once again pass it over with the same colour, and let it dry so that it be of a very blew or Asur colour."

Walwort (or walewort) is an old name for the Dwarf Elder (European, NOT American). The author of the website adds: "It's interesting to note that that this is the first period recipe I've seen for blue leather that involves berries rather than woad or indigo. Most berry dyes fade quickly when exposed to light."

Roche Alum is alum made from alunite as explained here.
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Old May 14 2009, 02:48 AM   #101
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So how do they get leather in Harper blue?

I'm sure the traders would carry dyed goods, threads, laces and braids. We just haven't heard about them because Anne's protagonists are more interested in bubbly pies and dancing to Harper music.

But I think I'll leave leather dyeing to the drudges!
Mostly pre-done from the crafthall there is something about in HH2 and HH3

Also the tanner had it ready to made into what ever needed.
The belt, was all ready crafted. HH2
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Old May 14 2009, 06:26 AM   #102
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Default Re: 9th Pass Pern clothing

The Wikky article doesn't mention that alum is used as a retardant in smoking tobacco
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Old May 14 2009, 01:45 PM   #103
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The Wikky article doesn't mention that alum is used as a retardant in smoking tobacco
I didn't know that. And the joy of Wikipedia is that you can go and edit the article!
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Old May 15 2009, 07:48 PM   #104
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Gidget...that was amazingly interesting. You can really see dyeing leather working...especially on Pern. Thanks, this all added very nicely to Pern's everyday reality for me.
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Old Jun 22 2009, 05:36 PM   #105
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Re reading dragonsinger. Menolly's pipes of sea reeds had a hint of purple from sea grass and fish oil...
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Old Jun 22 2009, 07:50 PM   #106
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The alum would be used as a mordant - i.e. to fix the colour so that it would not fade or wash out.
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Old Jun 28 2009, 03:51 AM   #107
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I know beyond any shadow of doubt that I have no knowledge of tanning or dying leather/animal hides in any form, however I'd like to make mention of a speculation. In Dragonseye (Red Star Rising), Iantine monologued a bit about an early artist who had compiled a list of what native flora produced which pigments best for painting. If someone had that insight early on where the procedures and materials from Terra were still fresh in their minds, then its possible and even likely that Pernese materials for producing various colored dyes for leather and linen could have been compiled as well. sure after 2,000+ years the origins might have been lost, but knowing that Fellis produced a certain color and say Klah leaves another wouldn't be that hard to propogate over the generations.

Basically I remembered a radio article at one point how current artists were bemoaning how their pigments were never as true or vivid as the classic painters, then a note made that the main ingredients of the older paints were Lead, Cobalt, and other elements that prolonged exposure to resulted in Death.
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Old Jun 28 2009, 01:11 PM   #108
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I know beyond any shadow of doubt that I have no knowledge of tanning or dying leather/animal hides in any form, however I'd like to make mention of a speculation. In Dragonseye (Red Star Rising), Iantine monologued a bit about an early artist who had compiled a list of what native flora produced which pigments best for painting. If someone had that insight early on where the procedures and materials from Terra were still fresh in their minds, then its possible and even likely that Pernese materials for producing various colored dyes for leather and linen could have been compiled as well. sure after 2,000+ years the origins might have been lost, but knowing that Fellis produced a certain color and say Klah leaves another wouldn't be that hard to propogate over the generations.

Basically I remembered a radio article at one point how current artists were bemoaning how their pigments were never as true or vivid as the classic painters, then a note made that the main ingredients of the older paints were Lead, Cobalt, and other elements that prolonged exposure to resulted in Death.
Another thing that you have to concern yourself with is that compound which makes a good pigment for oil painting is not necessarily a good compound for cloth dye, and if it is, it may not be good for leather dying.

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Old Jul 1 2009, 08:37 AM   #109
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ghost: van Gogh used yellows based on chromium for his sunflower pictures. His pigments have oxidised which is why his flowers are now more green than yellow.
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Old Jul 2 2009, 01:53 AM   #110
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I can understand that, basically it was an example of times changing etc...

as far as the pigment/dye thing I agree that one item for a pigment is not necessarily good for a dye. what I was saying is that it could have been likely that a colonist, or early tanner when the knowledge of procedures from Terra still existed, could have compiled a list of indigenous items that could produce the colors needed for producing specific colors as a dye. Basically like Iantine had available to him from his education at Hall Domaize. dyes rather than pigments obviously, but considering all the busy little bees at the beginning of colonization, combined with people bemoaning the loss of this item of Terra or that, the possibility could very well exist.
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Old Jul 2 2009, 04:35 AM   #111
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<snip> ... but considering all the busy little bees at the beginning of colonization, combined with people bemoaning the loss of this item of Terra or that, the possibility could very well exist.
I quite agree. I can well imagine that various compendia exist in different Halls detailing exactly that. I should think that Healer Hall has several volumes of the medicinal properties of the flora (and fauna?) of Pern, the dyers have their own version, tanners another, artists have something ..... Yep - perfect sense!
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Old Jul 2 2009, 09:06 AM   #112
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Perfect sense indeed...

and a bit of trouble in the beginning of the Ninth Pass (and in many centuries before that) because the compendia might have been there; the crafts just didn't communicte and were far too secret about their "craft secrets".
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Old Jul 2 2009, 09:37 AM   #113
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Also the associated problems with copying (for example an apprentice copying elder as alder - not that I'm saying that those two were definitively on Pern) and hides disappearing.

However, perhaps with the advent of the Pernese printing press they'll have runs of proper text books for students.
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Old Jul 2 2009, 09:49 AM   #114
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Oh yes, I think I can safely say we have experience with that in researching Terran archives; which is comparable.

I have said it before (on old KT): long ago, when there weren't many people who could wrote (think monks) and read, the handwriting was clear and regular.

Then people startied writing themselves and we get all kinds of trouble, bad handwriting, not enough knowledge, no (or not enough) grammer rules and bad copying etc.

Then that disappears somewhat when people get more education but the trouble is virtually solved after the printing press was invented.

The above of course does not only apply on the current subject but to all subjects that involve the written word in any way.


How about: check cattle, if necessary inject beasts against check cattle, if necessary reject beasts ... (knowledge lost) and I'm sure we can think of many examples.
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Old Jul 2 2009, 10:10 AM   #115
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Or:

Check cattle if necessary, inject beets. (A silly example, but plausible enough.)

Cheek cattle, if necessary inject/reject beasts. (Leaves a reader wondering what the blazes "cheek cattle" are.)
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Old Jul 9 2009, 07:54 AM   #116
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Not to speak of:

Che (mothhole) cattle if necessary (stained leather blotch) inj (rest missing)

I get the impression that's the state of many of the older records at the beginning of the ninth pass.

I can sympathise. I was recently given two ancestral diaries that have been under a house in Auckland for sixty years or more. While the top one is legible, in hard-to-read handwriting it degenerates into faded ink on foxed paper, and then faded ink on foxed, mouldy paper.

And did Anne ever discover that the mould on records is dangerous? It can cause eye infections and lung diseases.
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Old Jul 9 2009, 11:03 AM   #117
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And did Anne ever discover that the mould on records is dangerous? It can cause eye infections and lung diseases.
Just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean that there's not a condition known as Archivist's Lung or Archivist's Eye or something
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Old Jul 11 2009, 08:26 AM   #118
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Apparently it was just a very bad stye which wouldn't go away. If modern Doctors couldn't work out what caused it, then it's unlikely that Pernese would know. The cousin who had that particular problem had to finish her thesis in the Science Department of the University, using a shielded chamber of some kind for her manuscripts.
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Old Jul 13 2009, 12:06 AM   #119
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Gidget...
Quote:
...Just because it's not mentioned doesn't mean that
there's not a condition known as Archivist's Lung or Archivist's
Eye or something
I always wondered about this, when so much was mentioned
about the moldy decaying record hides...can you imagine the
stink in the old weyr's record rooms........
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Old Jul 13 2009, 04:01 AM   #120
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I dunno... I only worked with the Harper Hall records and those were kept meticulously under top conditions. It only were the records in the abandoned Weyrs that decayed and were in part destroyed. Fortunately only a small part as hides stored under dry conditions keep good for a long, long time.

Besides, I'm not sure the Pernese mould has the exact same properties as a Terran one.
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