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Elizabeth Kerner Author of the Kolmar series featuring Lanen Kaelar. Currently Kerner is working on the next of three more Kolmar novels.

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Old Sep 6 2010, 04:51 AM   #41
eann
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Default Re: About names of persons and places in the Kolmar Chronicles

I guess I don't truly understand what patronymics/matronymics are then. I thought that's what they did.
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Old Sep 6 2010, 10:13 AM   #42
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Default Re: About names of persons and places in the Kolmar Chronicles

You were on the right track, Eann.

The patronymics and matronymics give the name of the parent; the Russian name endings just indicate whether someone is male or female and can be tucked to/be the ending of a regular family name.

When I was searching for books by Anne McCaffrey in Russian I had to say I was looking for books by Anne McCaffreyova, not Anne Georgesdaughter, see?
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Old Sep 6 2010, 12:26 PM   #43
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Default Re: About names of persons and places in the Kolmar Chronicles

The Russians have a habit of changing foreign names, but they do use patronymics as well, often to the point of omitting the proper family name, as in Ivan Ilyich - Ivan, son of Ilya, a.k.a. Lenin.
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Old Sep 6 2010, 02:28 PM   #44
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Default Re: About names of persons and places in the Kolmar Chronicles

Yes, but they also do both, like with Pyotr Iliyich Tchaikosvsky, second son of Il'ia Petrovich Tchaikovsky, to give an example

And that's just what my (Dutch people) did until about the end of the 18th century, like Michiel Adriaansz. de Ruyter, a famous Dutch admiral. The sz. is an abbreviation for "'sson", so Adriaansson (son = zoon in Dutch).
In the northern province of Friesland people were continuing the habit and kept using patronymica up until the intoduction of the Code Civil under Napoleon Bonaparte early 19th century. Around that time the patronym in use at the time was simply turned into a family name! That what a Dutch genealogist calls a "petrified patronymic"

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Old Sep 6 2010, 05:20 PM   #45
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Default Re: About names of persons and places in the Kolmar Chronicles

Was it the Swedes who double barrelled the mother's and father's surnames? Sons got father's - mother's, and daughters got mother's - father's (or something)
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Old Sep 7 2010, 04:05 AM   #46
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Default Re: About names of persons and places in the Kolmar Chronicles

Not really, but the Spaniards do, but not in a patronymic sense. Both sons and daughters get the name of their parents' paternal lines.

Say Dolores Díaz Alvarez marries Pedro Martínez Fernández, their children would be named Martínez Díaz irrespective of sex. Although these days it's possible for all adult children together to decide to change the order of the names to put the mother's name first, if they wish, but all full siblings need to agree. If one disagrees, the traditional order stands. Ironically, the family would collectively be known as Los Martínez, even while that isn't the mother's name.

It gets even more complicated in some Arabic countries, where mothers get an additional name after their firstborn son (but not daughter), like Maryam Umm Mohammad (umm means mother). Ironically, among my friends the same thing's happened. We're a group of friends and one of them is my namesake. So for the rest of the group's chilren we're Maria, mother of Marcus and Maria, mother of .... (I won't name her kids without her permission). :p
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Old Sep 7 2010, 04:17 AM   #47
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Default Re: About names of persons and places in the Kolmar Chronicles

sounds like the lady in the gospels: Mary mother of James and John, to distiguish her from Mary Magdalene, Mary sister to Martha and Lazarus (unles those are the same person; vide Dan Brown), and the BVM (who is alleged to have had a sister also called Mary)
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Old Sep 7 2010, 08:49 AM   #48
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Default Re: About names of persons and places in the Kolmar Chronicles

Indeed, and wouldn't surprise me, since I expect the tradition predates Islam and it's the same part of the world after all.
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Old Sep 11 2010, 10:45 AM   #49
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Default Re: About names of persons and places in the Kolmar Chronicles

It is fascinating to see how different cultures establish family linkages throug names.

If you want the far-too-detailed thinking:

Lanen calling herself Maransdatter is harking back to an older usage in the North Kingdom, where the sons use the father's name (e.g. Jamiesson) and the daughters use the mother's. The idea of a patronymic is catching on in the North Kingdom, so Lanen calling herself Maransdatter is a bit old-fashioned (and unusual), but Lanen being motherless for so long really loved the idea when she heard it and has used it ever since.

And yes, I got the idea from Kristin Lavransdatter, by Sigrid Undset, a superb book.
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Old Sep 13 2010, 05:32 AM   #50
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Default Re: About names of persons and places in the Kolmar Chronicles

It's even more fascinating to see where an author gets her ideas!
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