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Old Mar 13 2009, 05:41 PM   #1
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Default Green mating flights

When a green dragon is ready to mate, do other greens have to vacate the Weyr temporarily? I don't recall reading that in any of the books, and it strikes me as a real inconvenience, considering how randy greens are supposed to be.

If green dragons don't fight one another during mating flights, as queens do, what's the reason? Do queens suddenly become super-territorial, while greens don't?

Finally, given her proclivities, do you suppose Kylara would have been better off as a green rider?

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Old Mar 13 2009, 11:09 PM   #2
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Default Re: Green mating flights

Queens are always territorial.
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Old Mar 13 2009, 11:14 PM   #3
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Default Re: Green mating flights

I personally don't think that the other greens have to leave the Weyr when one rises to mate. The only green mating flight that I recall that's told from the perspective of the 'outside" is the one Jaxom sees at Fort Weyr while he's training with the weyrlings, and in that case it really only involves the two dragons and their riders.The Weyrlingmaster is just curious to see if Ruth is gonna go for it, and when the white dragon doesn't, he's just like, "OK everyone, this is a green mating flight- this is how it happens, this is what it feels like." Mating flights are a fact of life in a Weyr, and the Weyrlingmaster used that particular instance as a teachable moment to help his students get accustomed to their new place.

There are A LOT of green dragons on Pern- I forget the exact statistic, if there is one- but in most Weyrs that are at "full fighting strength' there would probably be a green rising every 3 days, or weekly. If all the other greens had to temporarily leave every time, that would just be impractical and nothing would get done. A Weyr would be a very silly place

This would also require the riders of green dragons to be able to control themselves just a TAD BIT BETTER than Beth's rider did in DQ. It isn't Easy being Green because your rider then Acts like a Jerk Every Month ??? Come on, now. And for a long time here on Earth, woman pilots were unheard of for all the wrong reasons; i.e. they were suppposedly too"emotionally vulnerable". Ri-i-i-ght.

In that specific scene, everybody (but especially Beth and Seventh) are lucky that Canth's such a gentleman, and didn't just eat everyone right then.
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Old Mar 14 2009, 12:17 AM   #4
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Default Re: Green mating flights

Golds are a lot more territorial for one. There are more male dragons to go around for greens. Any male of any color can mate a green. Golds only have bronze dragons to go after them and they want to make sure THEY get the biggest, fastest and smartest bronze there is. They do not want competition.
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Old Mar 14 2009, 04:19 PM   #5
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Default Re: Green mating flights

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Originally Posted by mawra View Post
Golds are a lot more territorial for one. There are more male dragons to go around for greens. Any male of any color can mate a green. Golds only have bronze dragons to go after them and they want to make sure THEY get the biggest, fastest and smartest bronze there is. They do not want competition.
Hmm sometime a biger brown well fly a junior queen and all the brown/bronze flew the orginal group to explan the bloodline.

Sometime it depends on which male is flying the green some brown/green or bronze/green flights are as active as a gold flight.
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Old Mar 14 2009, 05:57 PM   #6
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Default Re: Green mating flights

Browns trying to mate with golds is a newer idea. I think it started with Canth wanting to fly Brekke's gold.
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Old Mar 15 2009, 05:40 AM   #7
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Default Re: Green mating flights

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I personally don't think that the other greens have to leave the Weyr when one rises to mate. The only green mating flight that I recall that's told from the perspective of the 'outside" is the one Jaxom sees at Fort Weyr while he's training with the weyrlings, and in that case it really only involves the two dragons and their riders.The Weyrlingmaster is just curious to see if Ruth is gonna go for it, and when the white dragon doesn't, he's just like, "OK everyone, this is a green mating flight- this is how it happens, this is what it feels like." Mating flights are a fact of life in a Weyr, and the Weyrlingmaster used that particular instance as a teachable moment to help his students get accustomed to their new place.
This.

Having all of the other greens leave just isn't logical. For one, where the hell are they all going to go during the Flight? Secondly, it's just not practical for an effective force that's meant to be militaristic - these dragons and riders are almost constantly on alert for where and when they'll have to rise to fight Thread, and to have them all scatter just because one of them is flying to mate would just screw things right up. Adding on to that, I think someone had a thread (or three) on dragon to weyr logistics some time back and so on, and in a Weyr at full strength (five to six hundred dragons), the greens are said to make up half of the fighting force (so that'd be somewhere around three hundred greens, yeah?). So if greens rise two-three times a Turn, and a Turn is somewhere around the same number of days as ours (I can't remember exactly), then yeah, that'd be a green or two rising once a day. Again, it'd be utter pandemonium having two-three hundred dragons going this way and that to get away every time a green flight starts.

That said, green flights apparently aren't as lusty or as long as gold flights, so yeah, the example Weyrlady used from TWD is sort of proof there, I guess. Greens have more dragons to chase them, and clearly are less territorial than their gold counterparts - remember in DF? When Ramoth rises, she screams out to the other dragons and dragons from every colour including green call back to her. I mean, every gold flight I can remember, everyone in the Weyr is like HOMGHOLYCRAPEVERYONEGETOUTOFTHEWAYGETTHEOTHERQUEEN SAWAY and so on. (Though that's probably also because golds are more significant when they rise, because they clutch the future protectors of Pern). And hell yeah, golds are territorial; they're practically supreme overlords of the entire dragon population from the moment they hatch.

So yeah, considering the sheer numbers of greens in an individual Weyr on its own? It isn't very practical at all.

Quote:
In that specific scene, everybody (but especially Beth and Seventh) are lucky that Canth's such a gentleman, and didn't just eat everyone right then.


Uh, as much as I love Canth (because he's darling and I love browns, even if Mnementh is my pick of the dragons), I kind of feel the need to stand up for Beth and her rider a bit here. As someone who quite literally goes partially insane every time she nears that time of the month, I can sort of relate to the OMGDAMNYOUTOHELLDIEDIEDIESTABSTABSTAB mood. That sort of PMS is a bitch, dude. And at least female riders would be somewhat more aware of its effects, being...well...female. Can you imagine what a male rider must go through?

(And no, I'm not condoning him, I'm just saying...half-jokingly)
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Old Mar 15 2009, 08:08 AM   #8
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Default Re: Green mating flights

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Browns trying to mate with golds is a newer idea. I think it started with Canth wanting to fly Brekke's gold.
Nope, there were definitely brown-gold pairings in the first pass. Sorka's comments in Chronicles: First Fall support this.
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Old Mar 15 2009, 10:17 AM   #9
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Default Re: Green mating flights

I meant it passes after the first one. Once there were enough dragons so that golds and bronzes could mate without having to worry about the bloodlines being to close together.
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Old Mar 15 2009, 02:24 PM   #10
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Default Re: Green mating flights

I wouldn't be surprised if during one of the long Intervals, that's when browns stopped flying golds.
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Old Mar 15 2009, 03:52 PM   #11
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Default Re: Green mating flights

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I wouldn't be surprised if during one of the long Intervals, that's when browns stopped flying golds.
Or at least when they got down to 2 queens per Weyr or less. Varied bloodlines in the clutches by junior Queens is one thing, but a Weyr tolerating a long-term brown-gold pairing that could eventually lead the Weyr? Nuh-uh, I don't see the bronzeriders standing for that.


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Old Mar 15 2009, 05:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: Green mating flights

Just the differences in physical capability between bronzes and browns are going to make browns catching golds a rare thing.

In fact, the most likely scenario might be one in a closed Weyr, between passes, where there is too much consanguinity between riders and/or dragons to produce an acceptable gold-bronze match and/or some bronzes are out of the Weyr and cannot be recalled in time. (Since M'hall is apparently the only dragonrider on Pern to understand a calendar).
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Old Mar 16 2009, 02:32 AM   #13
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Default Re: Green mating flights

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Uh, as much as I love Canth (because he's darling and I love browns, even if Mnementh is my pick of the dragons), I kind of feel the need to stand up for Beth and her rider a bit here. As someone who quite literally goes partially insane every time she nears that time of the month, I can sort of relate to the OMGDAMNYOUTOHELLDIEDIEDIESTABSTABSTAB mood. That sort of PMS is a bitch, dude. And at least female riders would be somewhat more aware of its effects, being...well...female. Can you imagine what a male rider must go through?

(And no, I'm not condoning him, I'm just saying...half-jokingly)
Yep. that sort of PMS definitely sucks; I can relate. Isn't being female fun?!Us gals, at least we have the advantage of understanding what's going on, and being able to plan for such things.

I'm just saying that I think that there probably is (or should be) some training in dragon mating cycles involved for the male riders of green dragons. Dragon Sex Ed. This is where someone, probably the Weyrlingmaster gathers all the young men who ride green, and says something to the effect of, "OK, gentleman, you've just acquired a menstrual period. This is what happens to her, even though she can't clutch, she'll feel like she wants to. You will be probably feel alternately like a jerk, or like you want to get your rocks off. Now that you know, fine. However, DON'T! ! A good piece of Pern is depending on you being able to keep your head."

With a little advance preparation, the whole F'nor/ Beth's rider-in-the-Smithcrafthall issue need never have happened, and Canth wouldn't have to eat anyone.
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Old Mar 16 2009, 10:05 AM   #14
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Default Re: Green mating flights

In the F'nor/ Beth's ridder thing supposably the green cycle came on suddenly, because she was recovering from an injury. It someone said that in intsances like that the green should be kept home. I think they do get some training in the matting cycles of green dragons. It is more probable to think that men don't always LISTEN to what they are being told.
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Old Mar 17 2009, 02:33 AM   #15
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Default Re: Green mating flights

Well F'nor did try to get his wyermate to take her home.

The green's rider waiting the knife, combined with his dragons trigger sex flight, it was mid moring, so the heat could have helped in triging the cycle. And the green rider didn't listen to his green or wyermate, he had to take him away, and reacting in that way hurting F'nor was what I half and half, not listening and forgeting his training and just for the knife.

Also it was better manged in the TWD and how the Wyerlingmaster keeping the wyerling buzy till "that" green was caught. Jaxom did reacted to it, with RUth sharing in the reactions.

Tia's green was in the hot mid-moring sun too, which trigger her cycle, which I think F"les handle mucn better. SvP
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Old Mar 17 2009, 12:21 PM   #16
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Default Re: Green mating flights

The green at the Smith hall didn't fly then. She was just proddy and in a tetchy mood because she was coming into heat soon, not IMMEDIATELY.
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Old Mar 22 2009, 09:45 PM   #17
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Default Re: Green mating flights

So what dimglow came up with the idea to put guys on green anyway??

***Sorry, sorry, to all the K'ben's and many other male greenriders out there. You guys do a good job! I definitely shouldn't over-generalize. ***
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Old Mar 23 2009, 03:56 AM   #18
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Default Re: Green mating flights

Well, it must have happened between the Second Pass (when Anne still has female greenriders) and the Third Pass (where Todd has them not). But for that last statement I need to consult my notes because I;m not one hundted percent sure on that.

As to why, now that is interesting indeed to come up with a reason for, especially if it all happened within the period of one regular Interval...

As a start one could argue that the troubling epidemic, that featues in Todd's books, took out so many Pernese that women were needed foremost to repopulate Pern. Would be nice to know some more about the demographics of Todd's Pern after the "plague" he has in his sub-series.
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Old Mar 23 2009, 09:59 PM   #19
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Default Re: Green mating flights

Also their was the wanting of the land grants too. For dragonriders could not own land but their offspring could. Also would it not depend on the Weyrleadership in having girls on "search" and on the Hattching Ground?

For something about K'vin reading of the records showed that greens with female riders where more steady, male rider wanting to show their weyrmates and others that they could do it.

A few were Weyr-bred, perhaps something happen to that, with the "wrong type of firestone" which I still find odd. Also the woman were needed to be in the crafthalls too.

Some of the maie dragonrider might be same sex or they could be what I call like females, so perhaps the tradition become some of a non-Impressed wyermate mostly from the wyerfolks.

Also there was the round of flu that effect wyerfolks and not riders but in later books we do see wyerfolks some do get sick.

Maybe the change from a mix of did something.
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Old Mar 23 2009, 10:43 PM   #20
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Default Re: Green mating flights

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Originally Posted by Weyrlady View Post
So what dimglow came up with the idea to put guys on green anyway??

***Sorry, sorry, to all the K'ben's and many other male greenriders out there. You guys do a good job! I definitely shouldn't over-generalize. ***
That would be M'hall and Torene per The Second Weyr.
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Old Mar 23 2009, 11:48 PM   #21
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That would be M'hall and Torene per The Second Weyr.
Huh?
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Old Mar 24 2009, 01:55 AM   #22
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That would be M'hall and Torene per The Second Weyr.
You didn't have to name them!

Speaking of over-generalizations, here's another one: All male greenriders are not only flaming, after-you gay, but also act like. . . well. . . wimpy girls (they're confused about their sexual identity). What's that about??
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Old Mar 24 2009, 11:05 PM   #23
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You didn't have to name them!

Speaking of over-generalizations, here's another one: All male greenriders are not only flaming, after-you gay, but also act like. . . well. . . wimpy girls (they're confused about their sexual identity). What's that about??
Why not name them? That's where the issue is specifically addressed. M'hall and Torene observed the behavior of a couple of homosexual riders and came to the conclusion that it might make a good operational solution to finding riders for the greens. Pregnancies were side-lining female green-riders, and Holders were reluctant to give up so many girls when they needed to grow their population. From a stand-point of operational necessity, it's not a bad idea given the circumstances. Later, when the population has recovered it is completely unnecessary, but by then tradition has set in. By 9th Pass, it's entirely pointless, as the population will have expanded 7-fold over its 8th Pass levels, and both are a fry cry from what was transpiring in the 1st Pass.

As for how many dragon-riders are homosexual and/or bisexual, that's anyone's conjecture. The homosexual community's more extreme advocates want to claim that all male dragon-riders are at least bisexual and that all green and blue riders are strictly homosexual. I'm sure there's an opposite camp willing to reject the homosexual issue entirely. I think both positions are nothing short of absurd.

I reject the latter due to the fact that explicitly homosexual riders have been written into canon, and that asides have been made that such behavior is at least prevalent enough with greens and blues to be remarked upon as relatively characteristic.

Should such remarks be taken to indicate blanket homosexuality amongst blues and greens? Not realistically, unless you honestly believe that "all actors and actresses are homosexual" or "all entertainers are homosexual" or "everyone in San Francisco is homosexual" or "all sailors are homosexual" or "all people who like show-tunes are homosexual." Such is simply not the case.

There is no scientifically reliable evidence that any more than about 10% of the population is homosexual and/or bisexual, and the most scientifically rigorous studies indicate rates more on the order of about 3-4% with males having a higher percentage than females. Perhaps triple that number have had "some sort of sexual contact" with the same sex--although just what that constitutes varies widely from survey to survey. The numbers can be "boosted" by widening definitions to include non-recurring experimental or drunken encounters, or even idle musings. There are, after all, three kinds of lies and statistics are the worst! (Advocates will happily dispute such studies until they're blue in the face, but I can produce an advocate to dispute any aspect of any cause you can name.)

So we're talking about a a trait that is possessed by--at best estimate--<5% of the population. Add to that the fact that the trait for telempathy is also relatively and possibly similarly rare or even more rare, and the odds of a person being both Impressionable and homosexual/bisexual get pretty long. So the odds of being able to fill 50% of dragon-riders' ranks with homosexuals/bisexuals (just to serve the greens) look to be nearly nil. Boost that to 80% to serve the blues as well and it becomes absurd. Punch it up to 95% to take in the browns, or nearly 100% to take in the bronzes and it's just laughable.

Add in the fact that purely homosexual individuals will never reproduce on Pern, and nothing will be expanding that population except natural incidence in children later in birth order. Bisexuals can and will reproduce, but there is nothing to say that all of them do, or that all of their offspring will share the trait, especially if it correlates with birth order. Throw in the supposed propensity for using "short hops between" for birth control, and a lot of those offspring of bisexual dragon-riders will never be born. So, the odds are, even over 2500 years, they're not going to be breeding a separate population pool of telempathic homosexuals/bisexuals. And even if there was some expansion of this population, right alongside of it you'd have a much, much larger population of heterosexual telempaths being bred.

So, unless we all ingest a massive dose of handwavium, not even all of the green riders are homosexual. I'd wager the proportion of homosexual green riders would exceed that of the base population, and maybe even to a statistically significant degree. But given M'hall's and Torene's discussion, it is obvious that greens have Impressed heterosexual males from the beginning out of necessity. Offering homosexual males was viewed as a better choice for the dragon than a heterosexual male, but neither was as good as offering a female. Which is exactly how parochial Kitti Ping designed them.

I view the "all dragon-riders are bisexual/homosexual" argument as sour-grapes for the author's closing out the gold and bronze ranks to homosexuals. My personal view is that there are probably homosexual or bisexual riders in all of the ranks, probably about in proportion to the population, and in greater proportion amongst the greens. Ergo, a lesbian riding a gold would be damned rare, but it has probably happened at some point. And it has probably been a problem, given the imperatives with golds. The same with bronzes. Not quite as much of a big deal with browns (After all, what are the odds they'll actually catch a gold?). And with blues and greens, who cares? The blues aren't catching golds and the greens are sterile. In fact, there are probably some plot kernels in there.

I also view the "all powerful dragon-rapture" as overblown in the extreme. Lessa and F'lar came out of it and reentered it at will. This means it is unlikely to completely override a person's most basic psychological traits. Ask any hypnotist and they'll tell you that you can't actually get a person to do something against their will without their cooperation. Heck, ask any interrogator. You cannot get someone to go against their basic psychology except by duress. In spite of a lot of poetic language about the matter, I think the language is just words. A dragon-rider probably does not completely lose themselves unless they want to, or are sufficiently weak-willed (or totally conflicted like Brekke).

Ergo, there is no over-powering compulsion for the rider to bed the rider of the opposing dragon, nor is there any reason that a heterosexual rider could not grab up a Lower Cavern girl. Add the evidence of the Fort riders repairing in good order to the appointed room and nobody is "out of their head." There is no telepathic connection between the riders, and the dragons are too involved with each other to pay attention to or care who their riders are with. It's the humans that care and place an emphasis on the matter--in the case of a gold's flight. Why? Because a harmonious relationship between the riders of the two top-ranked dragons in the Weyr makes for a better-run Weyr. Is there any reason to enforce such a view at the lower levels? Nope. Green matings count for nothing. Of course, humans being humans, most would happily indulge an aphrodisiac such as mentally tagging along on a dragon-mating.

So does T'gellan have to bed Talina? As a technicality of biology--probably not. But as a matter of tradition...that's a completely different issue. He could probably boff Mirrim during the flight and his dragon and Talina's could care less. But the Weyr would look askance. Pern stories have shown time and again how things ossify into tradition, whether or not those traditions conform to reality. Witness the supposed sterilizing effect of firestone (complete hogwash), and the memory of Moreta versus the reality (more hogwash).
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Old Mar 25 2009, 07:21 AM   #24
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Default Re: Green mating flights

In spite of ElectricDragon's excellent points about a dragons influence over their rider (and others) not being as strong as is sometimes implied I think another reason other queens need to vacate the Weyr during a mating flight whilst no one bothers with green flights is possibly because queens have a much greater ability to "broadcast" their feelings and influence the behaviour of others around them.

The books repeatedly hint at a queens greater abilities to influence other dragons (and not just because they're the boss and the others choose to obey them) - take Moreta's use of Orlith to control wounded dragons while they're being treated for example, Orlith effectively forces her own feelings (or lack of feelings in the case of pain) onto the other dragon to the extent that it overrides what they're actually feeling from their own body.

So I suspect a big part of the problem could be that whilst everyone in the Weyr will be vaugely aware of a greens feelings during a mating flight they are all fully capable of ignoring it and getting on with their day, dragons and humans alike. But when a queen is mating it can push other queens who are close to mating into full heat, where all they can think about is wanting to fly away and have the bronzes chasing them - and the first thing they see is another queen with "their" bronzes. Being female they promptly get their emotions confused and chaos (not to mention potential death) ensues.
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Old Mar 25 2009, 08:36 AM   #25
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Default Re: Green mating flights

The simple statistics on the number of greens in a Weyr (about 50% of the dragon population, so 200 for a Weyr of 400) combined with how often they go into heat (1-2) mean that green flights are exceedingly common events -- anywhere from every other day to multiple flights a day being possible.

That frequency argues against other greens needing to vacate the Weyr. It's simply not feasible for half the Weyr's dragon population to have to absent themselves for 30-60 minutes on a regular basis like that.
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Old Mar 25 2009, 12:30 PM   #26
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Isn't one of the prime examples for this (what Cheryl just posted) the flight that took off when Jaxom and Ruth were training at Fort?
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Old Mar 25 2009, 12:59 PM   #27
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Default Re: Green mating flights

ElectricDragon, can you post a quote of Mihall and Torene figuring out about greenriders? I do not remember that at all - it's been a while, but I'm drawing a complete blank.
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Old Mar 25 2009, 02:47 PM   #28
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ElectricDragon, can you post a quote of Mihall and Torene figuring out about greenriders? I do not remember that at all - it's been a while, but I'm drawing a complete blank.
I thought it was Sean.

Ah yes, it was. Earlier in the evening Sean discussed with Carenath whether any of the current crop of male candidates are of a similar persuasion to blue Dagmath's rider, and that it'd be good to have fewer greens out of action due to pregnancy. Alaranth relays the details later on that night to Torene. Chronicles, TSW, p156/157 corgi paperback.
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Old Mar 25 2009, 07:30 PM   #29
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Ergo, there is no over-powering compulsion for the rider to bed the rider of the opposing dragon, nor is there any reason that a heterosexual rider could not grab up a Lower Cavern girl. Add the evidence of the Fort riders repairing in good order to the appointed room and nobody is "out of their head." There is no telepathic connection between the riders, and the dragons are too involved with each other to pay attention to or care who their riders are with. It's the humans that care and place an emphasis on the matter--in the case of a gold's flight. Why? Because a harmonious relationship between the riders of the two top-ranked dragons in the Weyr makes for a better-run Weyr. Is there any reason to enforce such a view at the lower levels? Nope. Green matings count for nothing. Of course, humans being humans, most would happily indulge an aphrodisiac such as mentally tagging along on a dragon-mating.

So does T'gellan have to bed Talina? As a technicality of biology--probably not. But as a matter of tradition...that's a completely different issue. He could probably boff Mirrim during the flight and his dragon and Talina's could care less. But the Weyr would look askance. Pern stories have shown time and again how things ossify into tradition, whether or not those traditions conform to reality. Witness the supposed sterilizing effect of firestone (complete hogwash), and the memory of Moreta versus the reality (more hogwash).
There's nothing holding a rider back from bonking a handy Lower Caverns girl, but it might not be all that pleasant for said girl.

Maybe men don't need much stimulation before engaging in connubial calisthenics, but some women need a bit more encouragement. So, the rider could either grab him a girl who will probably not thank him later, or be on the down-low with the rider who's dragon is being ridden by his own dragon, and have a mutually enjoyable flight.
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Old Mar 25 2009, 08:19 PM   #30
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I thought it was Sean.

Ah yes, it was. Earlier in the evening Sean discussed with Carenath whether any of the current crop of male candidates are of a similar persuasion to blue Dagmath's rider, and that it'd be good to have fewer greens out of action due to pregnancy. Alaranth relays the details later on that night to Torene. Chronicles, TSW, p156/157 corgi paperback.
Okay. I stand corrected.
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Old Mar 25 2009, 08:37 PM   #31
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There's nothing holding a rider back from bonking a handy Lower Caverns girl, but it might not be all that pleasant for said girl.

Maybe men don't need much stimulation before engaging in connubial calisthenics, but some women need a bit more encouragement. So, the rider could either grab him a girl who will probably not thank him later, or be on the down-low with the rider who's dragon is being ridden by his own dragon, and have a mutually enjoyable flight.
No kidding? Wow! Fifteen years flying jets and sixteen years of marriage and I never noticed! I'm so glad we guys have you to tell us these things...

I'm sure a rider can finding a willing and interested lass. And he probably won't have to look that far as I'm sure she can hear the racket the green is making as easily as he can. Given the number of women who crowd the O-Club bars at fighter bases, and mob the back-stage doors of rock concerts, the idea that the riders wouldn't enjoy the attention of any number of women as promiscuous as the likes of Kylara seems laughably unlikely.
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Old Mar 26 2009, 01:37 AM   #32
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Now E-Dragon, calm down. . .

Anyway, at the beginning of DQ, F'nor is musing aBOout what he calls "the perversity of women" (which I always found funny, but, remember, this is F'nor here)and he says that girls are always begging to come to Weyrs- and the implication is that's because they are active and respected. He even makes a comparison between his mom and Lady Holder ??; how good Manora looks because she's been very active, and then there's poor Lady Holder ??, who lives the typical "breeding machine" life of some Holder women. (That last are my words, not his.)

Then he thinking about Impression and how he agrees with F'lar to present as many candidates as possible, and how he has to Search outside the Weyr, even though the Lower Cavern girls are always willing. So this tells me that, at least in F'nor's opinion, some of the Lower Cavern girls may not exactly be the most upstanding of individuals- sort of the Pern version of "camp followers". From the Roman Legions forward and possibly before that, militaries have had "followers" who provide services- prostitution being one of those services.

Also, in Pernese culture as well as some past and current Earth cultures, dragonriders are considered the "elite"- and associating with the "elite" can raise oneself in social status. Having a child who had been born of the "elite" was extra special-after all, maybe those special abilities were passed down from father to son. "His daddy's a dragonrider!! Maybe he'll be one, too, one day!" Not unlike the caste system in India, but not nearly as strict.
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Old Mar 26 2009, 10:12 AM   #33
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Default Re: Green mating flights

In Dragonseye, which I just read a few weeks ago, the girls talk about their green dragons mating and whether they would have to sleep with the winning male dragon's rider. One girl points out using a substitute and says anyone would be willing when its a dragon mating flight. So perhaps there would be more takers to sleep with a rider during his green's flight than we realize.
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Old Mar 26 2009, 01:05 PM   #34
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No kidding? Wow! Fifteen years flying jets and sixteen years of marriage and I never noticed! I'm so glad we guys have you to tell us these things...
*shrugs* Some men never get it. And I would have no way to know if you've figured it out or not. :p

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I'm sure a rider can finding a willing and interested lass. And he probably won't have to look that far as I'm sure she can hear the racket the green is making as easily as he can. Given the number of women who crowd the O-Club bars at fighter bases, and mob the back-stage doors of rock concerts, the idea that the riders wouldn't enjoy the attention of any number of women as promiscuous as the likes of Kylara seems laughably unlikely.
Oh, I'm sure they can. The Weyr would be full of sensitive women, ready and able. But your statement made it sound like R'der would just grab anyone, willing or not. That's the portion of your comment I was responding to.
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Old Mar 28 2009, 12:12 AM   #35
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*shrugs* Some men never get it. And I would have no way to know if you've figured it out or not. :p



Oh, I'm sure they can. The Weyr would be full of sensitive women, ready and able. But your statement made it sound like R'der would just grab anyone, willing or not. That's the portion of your comment I was responding to.
You should hang out with a better class of men.

Assuming all men are both the same and ignorant is impolite at best and prejudiced at worst. Is there such a thing as an FCP?

That you latched onto that one small phrase in that tome I wrote says more about how you read things than how I write them.
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Old Mar 28 2009, 03:29 AM   #36
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Well, the whole issue is irrelevant anyway, since by tradition stand-ins aren't used. Most male greenriders are gay or bi, and even if a straight guy impressed a green he'd learn to live with it. Just like brown and bronzeriders learn to deal with green mating flights with male greenriders. Of course, it's obvious that Anne seems to subscribe to the old Greek idea that gay sex only counts for the "bottom" (cf. the notorious tent peg interview), the bronzerider who does the penetrating still counts as straight.
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Old Mar 28 2009, 09:37 AM   #37
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You should hang out with a better class of men.

Assuming all men are both the same and ignorant is impolite at best and prejudiced at worst. Is there such a thing as an FCP?

That you latched onto that one small phrase in that tome I wrote says more about how you read things than how I write them.
But that's because I agreed with everything else you wrote. So I felt no need to comment.
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Old Mar 29 2009, 10:07 PM   #38
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In Dragonseye, which I just read a few weeks ago, the girls talk about their green dragons mating and whether they would have to sleep with the winning male dragon's rider. One girl points out using a substitute and says anyone would be willing when its a dragon mating flight. So perhaps there would be more takers to sleep with a rider during his green's flight than we realize.
Well, that pretty much sinks the idea of there being any necessity for even green riders to be homosexual.
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Old Mar 29 2009, 10:20 PM   #39
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Well, the whole issue is irrelevant anyway, since by tradition stand-ins aren't used. Most male greenriders are gay or bi, and even if a straight guy impressed a green he'd learn to live with it. Just like brown and bronzeriders learn to deal with green mating flights with male greenriders. Of course, it's obvious that Anne seems to subscribe to the old Greek idea that gay sex only counts for the "bottom" (cf. the notorious tent peg interview), the bronzerider who does the penetrating still counts as straight.
"Hey, so you're gonna get raped--suck it up!" Followed by the inevitable nudge-nudge, wink-wink for the bad pun.

Yeah, nothing morally questionable there. Suggest that thought about a woman and you'll be pilloried, but hey, it's just a man. In fact, I've noticed a lot of people carefully ignore the issue of whether gold riders are effectively being raped.

Now we've softened the point for women by buying into the weak theory that everyone's out of their head during the event (ask the victim of a ruffie or an alcohol-induced black-out just how much difference that really makes), and buying into the idea of influencing the dragon's choice.

But why the stampede to make all male dragon-riders homosexual or bisexual. Statistically the idea's ludicrous. But setting that aside, why? Tit-for-tat because of the de facto situation of the gold riders? If we're going to let them come out of dragon rapture unscathed, or let the choice be influenced, why not let the straight male dragon-riders be straight and the homosexual and/or bisexual ones be as they are?

I see the inability to form permanently monogamous relationships (rare cases like Mnementh's ability to monopolize Ramoth aside) as a good "price" for Impressing, but I think the "all male dragon-riders are homosexual/bisexual" serves other purposes and probably has no root in the author's original intentions. Lord knows she is ignorant enough on the subject and it shows.
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Old Mar 30 2009, 12:11 AM   #40
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Default Re: Green mating flights

What if the greenrider like Tia could not find a right dragon rider? Or is it something like being craft-bred with relation to her green rising. For something about F'lessen reaction to her green coming into season after the flood in SvP.

Drats, I wish I could read! I do hope that my dr. can find something is clouding my vision so I can enjoy reading once more for a bit.
Quote:
"Hey, so you're gonna get raped--suck it up!" Followed by the inevitable nudge-nudge, wink-wink for the bad pun.
Image of myself shying away from that!

Here is a idea what about someone who has never had any relationships at all. Or had something like a "bad" thing happen to the person as a young child and still has that memory comes affer Impression but before the mateting flight?

Would or could that happen on Pern? Say someone did a sex like act and didn't get cought and it pop Turns later in the kid who had seen it? Or see something happen like Polanth's (sp) rider who change from a person in self-pitty to something for the been, but still it could pop up?


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