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Old Dec 22 2011, 09:58 AM   #6
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Default Re: When has Anne McCaffrey become answerable to Feminists?

Suffice to say, simply regarding Jaxom and the hold girl, a consensual dom/sub relationship involves consent.

Did I say anything about consensual relationships? I doubt that and that's quite precisely what I do not want to read about for fun.

Do you really believe sadomasochists fantasize about consensual BDSM?

That would be a lot like expecting your average Joe fantasizing about his own wife instead of (insert the hottie of the year) Pamela Anderson or Lady Gaga or the stripper with the huge boobs.

She has no choice--he's the Lord Holder, he wants sex, he takes it now.

Which is why it is quite hot at that point.

Note that Jaxom completely forgets her later and she's basically never heard from again.


Brekke offends because the scene with F'nor pretty much violates the modern concept of 'no means no.'

Again - so what?

First off, it is a rape fantasy (like a lot of what Anne wrote btw) and I love reading those. I'd like them even heftier. I get off on them and reading them as a youngster and realising there were quite obviously OTHER women having the same wanking fantasies was a major, much appreciated discovery!

Secondly, has anyone lately really stopped to look at what the basis of these books is? A harsh, male-dominated medieval society with dragons and Thread thrown into the balance. Why the heck would a man in such a society care one fig about what the woman wants? F'nor actually does care a whole lot more than he'd have needed. Would Fax have given that much thought?

You don't even have to go as far back as that. In the 18th and 19th century still women were expected to pop out a bairn every year, and there are reports of midwives from every (!) single so-called civilised country of the time which has men happily doing their wives on the same day they have given birth. That, just to clarify attitudes a bit, used to be one major reason for death in childbed apart from the dirty hands of your average ob gyn.

The first two books are written with a lot of grit, yet not even a fragment up to what medieval reality was, though Dragonflight does try and try hard and indeed goes somewhere, as does Dragonquest. So instead of handing out brownie points as you should, you want it dumbed down to your expectancies of modern society?

Err - that's precisely my question, WTF has that to do with anything? If I wanted to read that I'd head over to the non-fiction shelves and have a look through books on feminism or written by feminists...

And what does a "no being a no" in daily interaction have to do with a completely, but oh so utterly, fictive world?

I've yet to read a book by McCaffrey in which she writes about people living in my street (or yours wherever you live) and say that it is quite okay for your neighbour or BF to sleep with you even if you say "no."

If such a book existed, fine, then we could start a hot discussion regarding how obnoxious this is. Actually I think that the currently still supported policy of not enforcing neutral sex-ed in British and American schools and the support of virginity unto marriage taketh place and abstinence is creating a definitely worse havoc and more grave suffering for the involved (female) parties than any amount of Science Fiction (or mild Horror Romances to get the usual other candidate in one go) might ever dream to achieve.


Anne wrote romance novels back when that's what one put in romance novels. One can hardly hold that against her.

Actually no. She wrote rape, not forced seduction, most times and she meant to write rape. The difference is quite obvious to anyone who likes rape fantasies and gets to read both. Rape fantasies are hot, the typical romance-style forced seduction is rather boring compared and not exactly titillating.

But Anne's books AREN'T especially progressive by current standards.

See above, why should they? She initially wrote about a colonised world gone back to medieval mores. Had she stopped after Dragonquest that 'verse would have been thoroughly acceptable and a true classic. It was the dumbing down which occurred with the demands of fandom (and probably also stupid editors) which did the Dragonriders a lot of harm.

The only really "liberated" female characters we see are in Moreta

And she is one of the most boring characters of the whole series...
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