A Meeting of Minds - An Anne McCaffrey Discussion Forum

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-   -   Between [split] (http://forums.srellim.org/showthread.php?t=5790)

T'mynn Sep 14 2008 09:28 PM

Between [split]
 
Hmm, thought provoking this discussion is. I can't respond to Dragonic bilogy. The "Between" thing is fascinating.There are other dimensions that we hadn't learn to access.

I haven't a ACM book in the hosue ATM. What can you all tell me of Between? What is the environs like?
Affects on Human and dragon biology?
Is there a time dialation, any sensation of time passage?

Sorry for going all Vulcan, I'm digging for info in order to postulaite a thoery.

Pernaficionado Sep 15 2008 05:16 PM

Re: Eye Facets
 
between is said to be what dragons pass through as they teleport geologically and/or chronologically around pern. It is described as "nothing, no sensation at all." You can't feel the dragon under your buttocks, you can't see your hand before your eyes, you can't hear yourself scream. you feel as though they air is squeezed from your chest or alternarely simply that there is no air to breath at all. It is also described as extremely cold which appears to be the only sensation the pernese do feel and they seem to feel it instantly upon entering between, no matter how warm they are or how they are dressed although flying gear tends to be heavily insulated(proabably due more to chillier higher altitudes then for between)eith out visualizing a clear "exit point" one can enter between and stay trapped for ever, alternately you can exit directly into stone of falling thread and kill yourself if you have not visualized sufficient airspace with your coordinates. There are a number of small references and finite differences in descriptions and variables as to what to ecpect from Todd vs Anne as well as "beyond between" which really doesn't fit the rest of the series as far as descriptions of "between" but that is a pretty blanket overview i think. any can of course add or correct if they disagree.
I do think the bits that branch into between should be moved to start a new thread perhaps? or is there already a thread on this topic in "science of pern" either way, :wave: " A little help over here?":)

T'mynn Sep 16 2008 12:30 AM

Re: Eye Facets
 
That's one heck of a concept this "Between". it's fun trying to figure it out.
The dragon eyeballs, now THAT's a head scratcher. I'm more of the theorectical physics, not a biologist.

This is way out of my league. The theories thus far make sense, of the hexagonal facets with a nearly sphereical eyeball, that allows for ease of swivaling movement. The colour changing, that's a good one. A dragons' sight centers in the brain would have to be highly developed to handle all the data coming in from EACH facet. WOW. If the bioluminescance is internal, then the dragon must be able to switch it on and off at will. How? I don't truly know, I have to think aboput this one for a while, chew on it and hope I can forumlate a half-way sensible explaination.:-D

Is that a result from the firestone that's consumed? SOme weird by product that just happens to be in his body and only visible through the eyes? <shrugs>

Pernaficionado Sep 17 2008 05:55 PM

Re: Eye Facets
 
definitely not. they glow and whirl from hatching. you really should read more(ALL:)) of the books before you start with any theories though. Otherwise you miss significant details.

T'mynn Sep 17 2008 07:12 PM

Re: Eye Facets
 
Well, buying them will have to wait a few years. I'll have to find a buddy who has them and borrow a few.

Anne's books were among the frist adult books I'd read as an 8 year old which was quite a long time ago and only been read once. To remember what I have over such a long time frame is something to say about the author. That world is memorable.;-)

The eyes can glow at birth to show emotional states. What's causing that? Information gathering time. While in the mother is the egg's shell soft and absorbant to recieve nutrients and antiboties from mother? If so, what does the baby get and not get from mom?

Could s/he get some elements of the already matabolised firestone in that fashion?

Pernaficionado Sep 17 2008 08:44 PM

Re: Eye Facets
 
Golds DON'T chew firestone. Period. The eggs are soft when clutched and harden on the hot sands. dragonets are born with certain elements of instinctive knowledge, for example, they know their own names. Your local library should be well able to catch you up Mynn, and judging from the basic precepts I just outlined, you really should work on getting caught up a bit:) I don't want to come off sounding overly critical, but there are rather a lot of basic pieces of information that you seem to be missing about Anne's dragonriders. Additionally, Further inquiry into the physics(lack of a better term here) of between and the specific biology of dragon mating/clutching should probably be started/moved to another thread where I will be happy to continue answering your questions to the best of my ability.

GinnyStar Sep 17 2008 09:05 PM

Re: Eye Facets
 
Just reading my back e-mail, and thread/posts here, the eyes of the dragon and/and or fire lizard, stick out of the side of their head, they can see images all around them, something from Dragonseye/Red Star Rising, and The Skies of Pern are twiging the ideas here. For something about how the eye were created. Very few eye problem happen for the lids can close realy fast so damage to them is small.

Maybe in a fight: With other dragons like a mating fight in Dragonquest or CvP Second Wyer? Or when the felines were fighting the dragons?

Also the watch-wher have misshaped eye facets which at like a magifinding (sp) glass this is coming from the Dragonlover's Guide to Pern.

Shalyn Sep 27 2008 10:02 AM

Re: Between [split]
 
One thing that is bugging me about between:

Is there a window of opportunity to get out, and if you don't use it, then that's when you're stuck forever?

Re: Dragons/riders going between and never coming out due to poor visualization. Now, I can understand how a percentage of them would panic if that happened, to the point where they would then die of suffocation before coming back out.

But, as we have seen in the books - dragons and riders, even if they cannot feel each other between, they still talk to each other. So, if you don't visualize, or visualize incorrectly - why can't you correct it after you have realized a mistake has been made? Is it because you have actually gone to nowhere - you're not really between any longer, but have become nothing more than a bunch of scattered molecules? After all, it is possible to come out encased in stone, where you end up being a fossil instead of a human.

But - is there room for error?

Kath Sep 27 2008 01:01 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shalyn (Post 120532)
One thing that is bugging me about between:

Is there a window of opportunity to get out, and if you don't use it, then that's when you're stuck forever?

But, as we have seen in the books - dragons and riders, even if they cannot feel each other between, they still talk to each other. So, if you don't visualize, or visualize incorrectly - why can't you correct it after you have realized a mistake has been made? Is it because you have actually gone to nowhere - you're not really between any longer, but have become nothing more than a bunch of scattered molecules? After all, it is possible to come out encased in stone, where you end up being a fossil instead of a human.

But - is there room for error?

I don't know - my guess is it's because the transition between is a vectorial action - it's not knowing where you're going that gets you there, but knowing where you're coming from as well. Once you've gone between without visualising, you might not be able to jump out in the right direction because you no longer know where you are at all any more?

Pernaficionado Sep 28 2008 09:46 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
that is really tough, especially since the only book that might offer explanation is also the most confusing because of its nature and tha fact that so much of it fails to make canonical sense. Beyond Between makes it seem as though there is a window. the scene where moreta jumps and begins her litany and realizes it has taken to long. they are "there" between and Holth says she cannot move and Moreta visualizes Fort But they Can't "Jump" again. after that point the whole concept of between stops making sense in my point of view, but that is the only applicable reference i can come up with.

Cheryl Sep 29 2008 08:53 AM

Re: Between [split]
 
I like that explanation Kath.

My own understanding has always been that if the destination isn't visualized well before the jump, that there is no way to correct the problem once between. It's got to be correct from the start, or the jump simply ends in between. The fact that riders who get stuck between might try to rejump doesn't negate this theory -- it just means the riders don't realize it's hopeless (why would they?) and try to get out.

Weyrbrat Oct 8 2008 03:33 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shalyn (Post 120532)
One thing that is bugging me about between:

Is there a window of opportunity to get out, and if you don't use it, then that's when you're stuck forever?

Re: Dragons/riders going between and never coming out due to poor visualization. Now, I can understand how a percentage of them would panic if that happened, to the point where they would then die of suffocation before coming back out.

But, as we have seen in the books - dragons and riders, even if they cannot feel each other between, they still talk to each other. So, if you don't visualize, or visualize incorrectly - why can't you correct it after you have realized a mistake has been made? Is it because you have actually gone to nowhere - you're not really between any longer, but have become nothing more than a bunch of scattered molecules? After all, it is possible to come out encased in stone, where you end up being a fossil instead of a human.

But - is there room for error?

why is it that riders are told not to go between on ground? im sure that in dragonflight or something they warn lessa about weyrlings coming out of between in rock? but how does where u go between affect that?

Kath Oct 9 2008 06:38 AM

Re: Between [split]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Weyrbrat (Post 121577)
why is it that riders are told not to go between on ground? im sure that in dragonflight or something they warn lessa about weyrlings coming out of between in rock? but how does where u go between affect that?

Part of it is the need for the rider and dragon to collectively build up a clear visualisation of where they're trying to go to, which takes time. We saw this go wrong for Moreta at the end of her ride - she knew Holth had a habit of going between within a few wingbeats of taking off, but was too tired herself to get the visual in place first. It's standard good practise, teaching weyrlings to make sure they're safely airborne and don't rush the visual before going between.

It's possibly also important for the younger dragons especially, as they may have weaker flight muscles during initial training, and the strain/excitement of takeoff is a potential source of injury. You don't want to ask your dragon to go between in the very instant it feels the pain of a slightly wrenched muscle, at least not until it's experienced enough to do so safely by rote, having developed the necessary skill in preparation for fighting Thread.

Finally. the dragon takes along a rider as well as themselves, plus any other passengers and baggage he's carrying. You need to have a clear tactile impression of what's coming with you and what's not - being in contact with the ground could potentially sully that.



[As an aside, would you care to use a few more capital letters and punctuation where appropriate? It does make communication just that little bit clearer and more pleasant, and communication is, after all, what we're all here for...]

Weyrbrat Oct 9 2008 12:00 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Ok thanks for the tip. I'm new to forums and the like.

draconichybrid Oct 9 2008 06:26 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kath (Post 121642)
Part of it is the need for the rider and dragon to collectively build up a clear visualisation of where they're trying to go to, which takes time. We saw this go wrong for Moreta at the end of her ride - she knew Holth had a habit of going between within a few wingbeats of taking off, but was too tired herself to get the visual in place first. It's standard good practise, teaching weyrlings to make sure they're safely airborne and don't rush the visual before going between.

... True, but then there are the "exceptional" dragons with enough initiative to ...

...override their rider's choices.
Example: Mnementh (in Dragonquest acts on his own initiative to pop out of between at a point quite a bit higher than F'lar wanted -- and F'lar himself admits that Mnementh acted properly in doing so)
...go (or alternatively, refrain from going) between themselves.
Example: Ruth (as a rule, Ruth uses Jaxom's coordinates if he considers them valid, and his own when they aren't -- due to his rider's physical/emotional needs in general, firehead-induced incapacity specifically, his sharper time sense, etc.)
Example: Canth (in Dragonquest, F'nor complains to Brekke when Canth refuses to take him between while still recovering from that bloody knife fight. Brekke 'figured Canth had more sense than that' or some such. :notme:)


Of course, Ruth is at least as exceptional in his own way as Lessa is in hers. Like Isthia Raven from Talentverse, his usefulness stems as much (if not more) from being a jack-of-all-trades as it does from anything else.

Need a stolen queen egg recovered? Call Ruth. One of his snitches will get in touch with him, and he's even got the retrieval covered.
Need a coastal village evacuated yesterday -- literally? Call Ruth. Again, Ruthie'll handle it -- even going above and beyond his orders to transport some bloody fishing craft. What's that? Wave approaching, not enough time to escape? No problem -- can anyone say microjump?

mawra Oct 9 2008 07:19 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Ruth did not save the boats. F'lessa's dragon did that. I can not rember his name at the moment.

draconichybrid Oct 9 2008 07:44 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mawra (Post 121740)
Ruth did not save the boats. F'lessa's dragon did that. I can not remember his name at the moment.

Really? That was F'lessan's Golanth? Go figure. :blush:
Now that you mention it, F'lessan and Golanth did join in on that one.

What exactly did Jaxom and/or Ruth do that was so special -- other than that temporal microjump thing Ruth comes up with to save his and his rider's life -- then?
Because I seem to remember Ruth and/or Jaxom doing something particularly noteworthy during the evacuation, although I admit I could be misremembering.

T'mynn Oct 9 2008 11:24 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Hmm here's the kicker. HOW do the dragons and firelizards 'blink' between? is it a hornomal thing, thought driven? It seems to bring in the quantum theory of super strings.('brane theory) . It's interesting how a critter can do that. The poblem is the mechinism they use. I don't know what they 'use'.

Shalyn Oct 10 2008 10:05 AM

Re: Between [split]
 
Well - how do people teleport? Anne's concept of between seems to be an extention of teleportation. Many writers use tele-stuff in their writing. Anne gave a place for teleportation to happen. Some other writers have done that, also.

So - it has something to do with the space-time continuum, and that space between space.

Weyrbrat Oct 10 2008 05:39 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by draconichybrid (Post 121741)
Really? That was F'lessan's Golanth? Go figure. :blush:
Now that you mention it, F'lessan and Golanth did join in on that one.

What exactly did Jaxom and/or Ruth do that was so special -- other than that temporal microjump thing Ruth comes up with to save his and his rider's life -- then?
Because I seem to remember Ruth and/or Jaxom doing something particularly noteworthy during the evacuation, although I admit I could be misremembering.

I don't remember Ruth being involved in that area of the evacuation at all.

DragonDance Mar 25 2009 05:44 AM

Re: Between [split]
 
Sounds silly, but my take on teleportation is that the Universe contains any and all physical coordinates possible. So the question is: where is the universe located? What are it's coordinates? It is not infinite and has an edge, though what lies beyond might not be considered a physical reality nor anything with coordinates as we know it. Between is simply the location of the universe, a non-space space (hence the lack of sensation and matter which physical beings can only interpret as darkness and cold) that contains all the points of the universe within it. So they all sort of share that point.

A pop out of the universe to the metaphysical 'hub,' which has connections to everywhere at once, ride that back to your destination. I'm sorry, its hard to put in words now that I'm thinking about it.

As for Golanth, I believe the evacuation was noteworthy because so many dragons were working together, weaving through time, to do something that was thought impossible. Then, to top it off, Golanth does something difficult under horrible circumstances AND under his own initiative.

StevenB Mar 25 2009 08:00 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DragonDance (Post 138880)
Sounds silly, but my take on teleportation is that the Universe contains any and all physical coordinates possible. So the question is: where is the universe located? What are it's coordinates? It is not infinite and has an edge, though what lies beyond might not be considered a physical reality nor anything with coordinates as we know it.

It is possible for the Universe to have no location. Where, for example, is the location of the centre of the surface of a sphere? It's also possible to have a finite space with no edge. A two dimensional creature could travel round and round the surface of a sphere forever without ever finding an edge. The 3-D Universe we experience could be the 3-D surface of a 4-D sphere, in which case we would be the creatures crawling around on the surface and not realising the "true" shape of the space we live in. (I say "could be" because the reality is probably a lot more complicated than a nice sphere shape - probably more like an 10-D surface that has been scrunched up and thrown into an 11-D waste paper basket...)

But the concept of between being somewhere outside space is fascinating. Perhaps you have managed to jump off the 3-D surface on which we live and are travelling to a different part of the 3-D surface? Another possibility is that you have truly jumped outside the realm of space to a "place" where there are no coordinates, so there is abolutely nothing to sense; you are both nowhere and everywhere at once. As you say, connected to all the coordinates in the Universe.

The fact that between also lets you jump in time could mean that there are no time coordinates there either; in which case if you stop there you can never make the decision to leave, since there is no cause and effect. :eek:

(I think I used up my italics quota :).)

ghost8772 Mar 28 2009 03:19 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
SO between comes across as being outside of all dimensions, all points are reachable in space and time. The idea of needing exit vector to plot the entry vector and exit point comes across as completely logical.

okpondlady Apr 4 2009 03:06 AM

Re: Between [split]
 
I think going Between is like saying.... I am going from "Here" to "There". But if you only know where you are "starting" but not where you are "going" then you are only in.....not "There". I would think it would be like standing in a transporter to be beamed....somewhere and not knowing where you are to end up.

If you want to end a pregnancy......take a short trip Between.
If you want to commit suicide.... short trip Between will be quite effective.

BTW........HI Y'all!!!!!! I am new here. Just found this forum.... thought I'd put in my 2 cents worth.

Hans Apr 4 2009 05:11 AM

Re: Between [split]
 
Welcome to teh board, pondlady :good:

Suicide would be a LONG trip between in my book :grin:
Did you read the short story "Beyond Between"?

GinnyStar Apr 4 2009 05:47 AM

Re: Between [split]
 
In SvP: Outside of also spoting with his lady the object, contacting via Ruth and N'ton, along with Benden Weyr too and D'ram dragons who takes three to Landing. Returns Lady Stewerd of Southern Boll, and makes copied of the charts for folks after the meeting at Landing?

Drats, sometime my memory well blank out at some of the badest time. :wave: at Steve B! Found some else who like the book who you aided Anne in writing.

GinnyStar Apr 4 2009 05:49 AM

Re: Between [split]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans (Post 140088)
Welcome to teh board, pondlady :good:<sinp>

Welcome to Meeting of the Minds too. :wave:

Brenda Apr 4 2009 07:27 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Ginny, do you mean Skies of Pern? Because that would be SoP, not SvP.

GinnyStar Apr 5 2009 05:29 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brenda (Post 140171)
Ginny, do you mean Skies of Pern? Because that would be SoP, not SvP.

Yes I did :blush: I got my Speedwriting a form of shorthand mixup and didn't remember till a few days ago.
v in Speedwriting is of lol at myself.

Brenda Apr 8 2009 12:58 AM

Re: Between [split]
 
Ah, that makes sense - more than just a random "V"!

Lady Maelin Apr 8 2009 07:58 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Quote:

Steven...It is possible for the Universe to have no location. Where, for example, is the location of the centre of the surface of a sphere? It's also possible to have a finite space with no edge. A two dimensional creature could travel round and round the surface of a sphere forever without ever finding an edge. The 3-D Universe we experience could be the 3-D surface of a 4-D sphere, in which case we would be the creatures crawling around on the surface and not realising the "true" shape of the space we live in. (I say "could be" because the reality is probably a lot more complicated than a nice sphere shape - probably more like an

But the concept of between being somewhere outside space is fascinating. Perhaps you have managed to jump off the 3-D surface on which we live and are travelling to a different part of the 3-D surface? Another possibility is that you have truly jumped outside the realm of space to a "place" where there are no coordinates, so there is abolutely nothing to sense; you are both nowhere and everywhere at once. As you say, connected to all the coordinates in the Universe.

The fact that between also lets you jump in time could mean that there are no time coordinates there either; in which case if you stop there you can never make the decision to leave, since there is no cause and effect.

(I think I used up my italics quota .)
This is an amazing explanation of what between might be like...and how it might work...

Your... 10-D surface that has been scrunched up and thrown into an 11-D waste paper basket...was a real hoot, especially when you consider what the size of the waste paper bin might be...:faint2:.............:lol::lol::lol:

GinnyStar Apr 8 2009 10:20 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Brenda (Post 140441)
Ah, that makes sense - more than just a random "V"!

Yep, I have a habit of some using Speedwriting when I use print. Like on a cell phone, or typing up notes on the computer. I didn't pick it up till one day I was looking for something, and came across a note in Speedwriting, too tired to post then, so I forgot, When the voice readering software read the post, it got stuck on that topic. Then it triggers eek I've got the wrong verson of lol at myself.

StevenB Apr 17 2009 05:44 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GinnyStar (Post 140097)
:wave: at Steve B! Found some else who like the book who you aided Anne in writing.

:wave: back at Ginnystar. Thanks for the compliment, but the story is entirely Anne's. I just plotted what the sky would look like from Rukbat and found Anne some references describing the effects of an asteroid impact.

GinnyStar Apr 17 2009 07:30 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StevenB (Post 141279)
:wave: back at Ginnystar. Thanks for the compliment, but the story is entirely Anne's. I just plotted what the sky would look like from Rukbat and found Anne some references describing the effects of an asteroid impact.

Chucking, you also have a fan or two for the starsmiths around here. I know you mostly work in the computers software, VISTA thread but you also do take some great images. I gave MoM and if you find Steve B. you found the SoP who aided Anne!

Danikat Apr 21 2009 09:03 AM

Re: Between [split]
 
I've always wondered about why a dragon had to be in the air when they went between as well as when they arrived and a possible answer has just hit me whilst reading this thread:
Obviously they need to be in the air when they arrive so they don't end up inside a rock or something else. However dragons don't simply hover, they need to fly in order to stay in the air. It's probably much, much easier to start flying before they teleport and then stay flying afterwards than to go between standing on the ground and try to instantly start flying at the moment of re-entry.

This would also explain why they need to be stable at a good height rather than simply not touching the ground - taking off requires different motions than flying straight or hovering and it's probably almost as hard to go from take-off instantly into flight as it is to go from standing into flight. Esspecially with different air conditions to consider.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DragonDance (Post 138880)
Sounds silly, but my take on teleportation is that the Universe contains any and all physical coordinates possible. So the question is: where is the universe located? What are it's coordinates? It is not infinite and has an edge, though what lies beyond might not be considered a physical reality nor anything with coordinates as we know it. Between is simply the location of the universe, a non-space space (hence the lack of sensation and matter which physical beings can only interpret as darkness and cold) that contains all the points of the universe within it. So they all sort of share that point.

A pop out of the universe to the metaphysical 'hub,' which has connections to everywhere at once, ride that back to your destination. I'm sorry, its hard to put in words now that I'm thinking about it.

That's always been my take on between. I think the simplest way to say it would be to re-name it to 'Outside'.

(Disclaimer: I only took physics up to A-Level, 18 years old, and that was 6ish years ago now so my memory of it may be a little fuzzy)
Some physisists believe the universe is expanding, and has been ever since the Big Bang. Which raises the question of what it is expanding into. Some people would say it's just the matter within it that's spreading out and the physical space it's in (aka Space), is infinate. Others say the physical space itself is expanding, and there must be an area outside of it that it's expanding into. That would be between.

Although none of that serves to explain how the dragons can get there or how it'd enable them to travel almost instantly from any point to any other point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevenB (Post 138991)
It is possible for the Universe to have no location. Where, for example, is the location of the centre of the surface of a sphere? It's also possible to have a finite space with no edge. A two dimensional creature could travel round and round the surface of a sphere forever without ever finding an edge. The 3-D Universe we experience could be the 3-D surface of a 4-D sphere, in which case we would be the creatures crawling around on the surface and not realising the "true" shape of the space we live in.

Ah, but then the question simply becomes what's inside the sphere, rather than outside the universe. And then we're back to between being a fitting name because it could be the middle of the sphere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StevenB (Post 138991)
The fact that between also lets you jump in time could mean that there are no time coordinates there either; in which case if you stop there you can never make the decision to leave, since there is no cause and effect. :eek:

I think this makes a lot of sense for two reasons.

Firstly it fits with the idea that it's outside the physical universe, which many people consider time to be a part of. If you're in a completely different dimension either there is no time or the time equivilent is so different it's unrecognisable. Either way as you said it'd explain the inability to reach a destination when starting from between.

The second reason is that it would explain why the dragons teleportation takes almost no time at all. If they move themselves (and their rider) outside of time then no time would pass for them no matter how long it takes. The 8 seconds or so the jumps do take could be instinctively added by the dragons in order to stop them from being in two places at once every time they go between.

The one thing that seems to contradict that is when Lessa and Ramoth went back to bring the Oldtimers forward and she said it took much longer than normal jumps, but that could just be psychological.

StevenB Apr 22 2009 05:27 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
Ginnystar, thanks a lot :blush:

Danikat, on the subject of expansion, the universe doesn't have to be expanding into something. It could be infinite in size and still be expanding.

You're right about the 4-D sphere: creatures who can perceive 4 dimensions will discover that the sphere has an inside and a centre. But if you are a 3-D creature, the space in which you are living doesn't have an edge or a centre; at least nowhere you can get to through normal travel (back to the subject of between again).

Danikat Apr 22 2009 06:59 PM

Re: Between [split]
 
That's the thing, I don't think going between was ever intended to be remotely related to normal travel. It's not a case of moving within normal 3-D space, it's moving...well, between it.

The dragons don't seem to know how they do it, at least not in any way they're able to explain beyond the basic "We see where we need to go and we go there" and given the Pernese reverance for dragons and the fact that they go between when they die we're not likely to learn any more about their physiology than the first colonists were able to discover from fire-lizards and their gengineering work so any kind of biological explaination of the ability isn't likely. (Which is probably good, because trying to come up with the science to explain something like that would be a job and a half, even for a writer as good as Anne.)

For that matter who's to say dragons can't percieve additional dimensions, or percieve them in ways we can't? They are afterall aliens and clearly have a range of instincts related to travel between such as the apparent ability to sense other dragons around them as they re-appear for one, and some degree of awareness for where/when they are beyond the clues given to them by their coordinates. Isn't it possible they are in fact 4-D beings, if only to a limited extent?

Tim May 28 2009 05:54 AM

Re: Between [split]
 
I seem to remember a rather pertinent remark from AIVAS (can't remember which book). He referred to two different types of 'science', the type that we all use - physics, chemistry, etc .. and then there is the 'other' type, which simply 'is'.

Now I have probably made a complete hash of the actual description of what was written by Anne, but the basic idea was that there is no explanation for going 'between' because the ability is something from the 'other' science. As such, it defies explanation by 'our' science.
I also seem to recall that he made reference (or was it perhaps in DragonsDawn), about some alien species, power packs and their recharging method. These all seemed to be part of the 'other' science.

Rather a neat explanation of the inexplicable, I think.

GHarris May 28 2009 10:57 AM

Re: Between [split]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim (Post 144688)
I seem to remember a rather pertinent remark from AIVAS (can't remember which book). He referred to two different types of 'science', the type that we all use - physics, chemistry, etc .. and then there is the 'other' type, which simply 'is'.

Now I have probably made a complete hash of the actual description of what was written by Anne, but the basic idea was that there is no explanation for going 'between' because the ability is something from the 'other' science. As such, it defies explanation by 'our' science.
I also seem to recall that he made reference (or was it perhaps in DragonsDawn), about some alien species, power packs and their recharging method. These all seemed to be part of the 'other' science.

Rather a neat explanation of the inexplicable, I think.

That "other" science probably has to do with the science of "The Mind", which involves telepathy, teleportation, and telekenesis. In SoP, it mentions how AIVAS was wondering that if the dragons had the first two, why they didn't have the third. They did have the third, they just hadn't learned to use it overtly until Tai's dragon discovered how.

GH

Old Hippie May 30 2009 02:46 AM

Re: Between [split]
 
Ok, here's my take on "Between": You enter a large revolving door at point A. It spins around with lots of little doors in a BIG circle. You know you have to get out at the right door to get to point B. If you forget to get a good discription of the door, you end up missing it and get tossed out onto foggy plain that you can't see more than two feet in any direction. The exit door disappears cause your in the Twilight Zone. :D


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