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-   -   T-1s and Primes (http://forums.srellim.org/showthread.php?t=4247)

Gidget2 Jul 18 2007 01:17 PM

T-1s and Primes
 
I was thinking the other day about T-1s and Primes. I actually answered my own question because I was pndering about if being T-1 automatically meant you were a Prime, and then of course realised that Primes are only rated as T-1 in 'pathing and 'porting. Ergo the question answering!

But I thought more about T-1s. IIRC, Elizara, Rowan's medic when she was pregnant, was a T-1 in Empathy (I think?). But do we see any other T-1s (ie not Primes) in TTatH books? I can't seem to recall any, but that doesn't mean much!!

Greenrider Tresa Jul 18 2007 05:18 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Um... the young Zara, Rowan's granddaughter? ;) Least, I don't recall her being called a prime, but she was very empathic...

Gidget2 Jul 18 2007 07:45 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Oh yes! She was, I think, ruled out of being a Prime because she was too erratic and *too* empathic. And named for the other example of a T-1!

Any others out there??

mawra Jul 19 2007 06:08 AM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
I always thought that T-1 just ment you were very powerful in whatever erea your gift was in. It had to do with thedegree of power. Not just in teleporting or pathing.

Cheryl Jul 19 2007 09:10 AM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Does the T in T-1 stand for telepath/teleport? Maybe other abilities are denoted with different letters...

Gidget2 Jul 19 2007 11:16 AM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
I always thought that the T stood for Talent. so T-1 would be Talent (Rating) 1 etc. down to Talent-12 (or is it 15?)

And yes, Maw, that is right. As I said, a Prime is *only* somebody who is a T-1 with a long-distance path and port ability. If you were a T-1 Finder or Clairvoyant or only in pathing or only in porting then you wouldn't be a Prime, 'just' a T-1.

It's a shame that we don't see very many of the other Talents represented in the TTatH books, only in the Pegasus books. I know that when Rowan is on Deneb she finds some young people with various affinities, and there are some empathic nurses, medics and various crewmen onboard the spaceships, but there aren't really any non-Prime Talents mentioned, or for that matter, many non-path/port Talents described. There is Yegrani at the start of Rowan, but she is only there briefly and to set up the rest of her life.

It's a shame. I would like to know how the other various Talents were treated and ended up by the time of the later books.

granath Jul 19 2007 05:16 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Yeah, me too. It's a bit annoying.

Certainly Zara found enough stability when she grew up to work as a Navy Prime, even if she was never in charge of the team. She even spent some time in a Tower, on one of the rehabilitated Hiver worlds, before being sent to Aurigae to work with the Dini contraceptive issue, and to heal Laria and Kincaid's Dinis.

L'isa Jul 19 2007 05:43 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Oh, oh, TMI, I got caught up reading this and I am only finished with Damia.
My fault, me bad.

Gidget2 Jul 19 2007 06:31 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
I had, actually, forgotten about Zara's temporary Primeship (literally). Did she originally choose to not get listed as a Prime, or was it a decision that was taken away from her by her grandfather and parents? I remember Afra musing the idea of reccomending that course of action to Jeff as one Prime to another, but am unsure of the exact details now.

I suppose that her being given the Navy Prime job was permitted as it was just a temporary fixture for her, one which she agreed to out of necessity (and probably some degree of family pride), and was not going to be subjected to the kinds of pressure that the older Primes had been as Tower Primes.

And L'isa, hopefully there is enough reading to do between where you are now and what Granath and I mentioned to somewhat mitigate your .... stumbling into a something of a spoiler!!

Hasn't Anne stated that as far as the Talent universe goes, what we have is all that we will ever have? Shame. Another thing to add to the Anne wish-list!!!!!

Cheryl Jul 19 2007 06:32 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
I'd like to hear more about other talents too, but I would argue that they belong in separate books in the time of Rowan/Damia. By then, the various talents are so well accepted and people work in their individualized fields, it's not surprising that there isn't more room for mention of other talents in books that revolve around a family rife with 'port and 'path ability.

Lady Maelin Jul 20 2007 12:42 AM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Here again I am also in full agreement...I truely wish that there were more "Talent" books...and at least one that spook to the different talents that were also out there. That is one of the reason that I have always really enjoyed to Ride Pegasus...it told of the start and all the differnent people and their different talents. After those two early books not much is mentioned as far as interesing characters in other talent fields...sigh!!!

stumpedbymyname Jul 24 2007 05:35 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Hi, I'm new here but thought I would just jump right in on this thread. I always thought that T1 through T15 (or whatever) was the rating of the strength of their talent and that 'Prime' was simply a job title for the T1 that ran the station. All Primes were T1 but not all T1's were Primes.

stumpedbymyname Jul 24 2007 05:38 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Maelin (Post 80924)
Here again I am also in full agreement...I truely wish that there were more "Talent" books...and at least one that spook to the different talents that were also out there. That is one of the reason that I have always really enjoyed to Ride Pegasus...it told of the start and all the differnent people and their different talents. After those two early books not much is mentioned as far as interesing characters in other talent fields...sigh!!!

I am also in agreement here. I wish there were more of the talent books written. I loved the Pegasus books and the first 3 of the tower and hive series. I felt the last 2 books with the beetles and mrdini's were flat and fragmented. The picture in my mind of the 'dini's reminds me of a martian creature I once saw in a Bugs Bunny cartoon. Those creatures were almost as mean to Bugs as he was to them. Makes it hard to warm up to anything that seems remotely like them.

Sandi Jul 24 2007 10:53 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
:D Welcome, stumped. I know what you mean. I never really trusted the Dinis either. I'm not entirely sure exactly what effect all those Dini dreams actually had on the people who experienced them. I think the humans were manipulated a great deal by their "friends" even though they didn't always seem to get their way.

granath Jul 25 2007 04:47 AM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
The Dinis are among my favorite aliens. I think that their differences from humans were downplayed a bit, and even if there was some opposition to them, I'm surprised there wasn't more. To me it always feels as if the Dinis benefit more from the alliance than humans do.

Brenda Jul 26 2007 07:51 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Quote:

I always thought that T1 through T15 (or whatever) was the rating of the strength of their talent and that 'Prime' was simply a job title for the T1 that ran the station. All Primes were T1 but not all T1's were Primes.
That seems about right to me.

Gidget2 Jul 28 2007 10:40 AM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Yes, that's made quite clear in the books. A Prime is a Talent with a T-1 rating in both pathing and porting.

But what about other T-1s in other Talent areas? Where are they???????

granath Jul 28 2007 01:08 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Elizara Reidinger is a T-1 in healing, but we don't see any others, unfortunately.

Sandi Jul 28 2007 08:32 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
I think the Tower and Hive books are about Tower personnel, which means mostly Primes and other kinetics. It seems to me that the FT&T sort of branched away from the Talent community as a whole, becoming a seperate entity with very close tie to the original Center. That's the idea I got from Pegasus in Space, at least. The other Talents certainly still exist and some are mentioned here and there but the Tower books are focused primarily ('scuse the pun ;) ) on the Rowan's family and not about talents in general.

granath Jul 29 2007 11:16 AM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
I think you're right...

Bane Sidhe Jun 13 2015 03:05 AM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Hello everyone.
I'm 47 years old and have read every book by Anne McCaffrey that I have come across while trading books in book stores. I started reading her books in the early 1980's. I read 1 or 2 books a day on average when not busy building and programing a computer or training a horse. I would rather read than watch TV. Something about the feel and smell of a good book will always be my preference. I hate kindle's and such but at least those people are reading, even though they don't get the full experience. So being a Noob here I only really have one question. Does anyone know of a place that list the different T ratings and their different abilities? I have always been curious about that.
Thank You
Bane Sidhe

Bane Sidhe Jun 16 2015 05:20 AM

T-1s and Primes
 
So is there a list of the talent levels somewhere with what each talent is capable of?

D. M. Domini Jun 19 2015 10:55 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Hey Bane Sidhe!

There's no formal list really of what Primes or other ratings are capable of. Initially, given evidence in the books that two T-2s can do what a Prime can do (just with more difficulty/more drain), it almost sounds like it's 2 T-2s equal 1 Prime, 3 T-3s equal 1 Prime, but if you continue down that scale, I just can't see how 12 of the T-12s could equal a Prime. Honestly, I doubt they could do together what a T-6 could do solo.

My best guess is that there's some sort of sliding scale that the FT&T adjusts as time goes on and they breed/meet new Talents, and the lower ratings are somehow figured out between the "un-measurable" ability of a Prime, and "the lowest reliably measured" Talent of a T-12.

(It would be interesting to see if Peter Reidinger I was really a Prime by "modern" standards, or just a reasonably buff T-2 or T-3 with a special trick for gestalt.)

Anyway, all that said, I've written a lot of Talent fanfiction, and my personal canon (based on clues given in the books) sort of goes like this:

T-12: Close range/touch telepathy only. Minor object lifting or teleporting, for short differences...pieces of paper, small items like pill bottles or forks. It can be demonstrated on demand, but is limited to things very close by, and low in mass.

T-9: Probably enough range to cover a large room effortlessly. My reasoning on this is Brian Ackerman is a T-9, and he seems to communicate to the Rowan and Afra just fine with telepathy, so his Talent probably covers the work areas of Callisto Moon Base but not much beyond that. Telekinetically, since he's Stationmaster, I expect him to be able to "lift" shipping boxes about the same size as what your UPS or FedEx guy carts around. But not as far and not as long as higher Talents, and with much huffing and puffing.

T-6: Able to "cover" an entire planet, or half of one, but not go off-planet. The series tends to have T-6es for minor but significant-to-POV characters. If I recall, Goswina was one, as Alison Greevy, and also Damia's twic prior to Afra. So I'm guessing they can cover most of a planet...which is really all you need domestically unless you're directly involved in moving cargo off-world. I can't see Damia getting away with a "low powered" twic that couldn't at least cover the entire planet they were looking out for, even if the woman couldn't give much oomph to ore 'ports offworld.

T-5: Able to reach a planet's moons or other planets in that solar system; able to reach the closest other human colonies, barring Deneb which is in the middle of nowhere.

(Seriously, Deneb's separated by lots of light years from the other stars mentioned in the series. It's in the middle of nowhere. There's a reason Afra can't reach it, and that nobody realized Deneb was in trouble before Jeff reached out to Rowan.)

I THINK, from the Pegasus in Space book, the "loud-mouthed" telepath that was stationed on the moon was a T-5 or so. Then again, I don't recall T-ratings being used in the Pegasus books so maybe I just dreamed it up.

T-4: Able to reach all of the main colonies, barring Deneb. Some are difficult to reach. Basis: Afra Lyon's abilities, and Gollee Gren's. They seem to be able to reach everywhere needed, they just get much more tired doing it than a Prime is.

T-3: A less-tired T-4 with a bit more reach.

T-2: Can reliably reach every colonized planet, but to do Tower work needs to be partnered with another to lighten the load of the farthest 'ports. I like to think a T-2 is "a Prime with limits"; Afra Lyon makes a comment that he's "as Prime as he wants to be" when he's a T-2, so I feel that's support that you get most of the benefit of having strength and reach without actually having all the pressure of Prime. (I mean, how much strength and reach do you need once you can span stars with your mind? Do you really need more stars in reach?)

T-1: I like to think of this as less a set ability, and more a "so strong we can't really measure you yet". Like, if you have a limit the FT&T can find, you're a T-2. If you try and can't find one, you're T-1. I expect as the Alliance expands, you might start running into "Primes" that can't make ALL the reaches.

This said, there is less support on the books on this idea. I like the idea, but on the other hand, if the FT&T thought Primes were not "measureless" but "difficult to measure", would he have so blithely put a bunch of Afra and Damia's kids on military ships as their FIRST assignments? Probably not, he clearly expected them to be able to reach home. ::shrug::

Again, a lot of this is me just coming up with theories. There's very little laid out with any certainty about specific abilities of each T-rating.

Bane Sidhe Jun 24 2015 05:35 AM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Thanks D. M. Domini. I figure it about the same. Just wondered if anyone had ever made a for sure listing. I read a lot, reading Elfhome by Wen Spencer right now. My interest are wide and varied. I originally started reading Anne McCaffrey in the 1980's. Started with her Pern series and have read everything else since. Read the whole Crystal singer series in one weekend lol.
Thanks again
Bane Sidhe

Kugai Jun 27 2015 08:39 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
My take on the Prime rank was that it was an exclusive rank for the T-1 who was in charge of a Tower.

Bane Sidhe Jun 29 2015 03:22 AM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
In the last couple of days I have reread the whole series from start to finish. Some things I found interesting.

Afra Lyon started out ranked as a T4 when he left home to meet and work for the Rowan. As time progressed he eventually ranked as a T2 when he married his wife Damia the Rowans 2nd T1 daughter. They had 8 children most of which were T1's. So talents could raise their rank with practice.

I consider this and the Pegasus just 1 continuous series as it follows the same families and subject matter. Originally everyone with talents were called just that Talents. Later in the series about the 2nd or 3rd book was when the T rating system comes in. Then when FT&T was formed by John Green and others the Tower and Prime ratings came to be. To be a Prime a person must be a T1 in Telepathy and Telekinesis. FT&T does stand for Federated Telepathy and Telekinesis after all.

A T2 in merge or gestalt could run a tower and even as late in the series as Lyons Pride did so. This is mainly because there were never enough Primes for all the towers.

I like how Afra and Damias T1 daughter Zara became a Medical T1 and their T1 son Rodger even though a Prime received top honors in engineering.

I can see a lot of points in the series where there can be spin offs. Some of those already have. Wish there were a bunch more. I have loved all her books and have most of them on my book shelves.

D. M. Domini Jun 29 2015 04:42 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Kuagi - I agree, there's definitely evidence that the title "Prime" is specific to T-1 telepath/teleports working in the FT&T. Like, Elizara (and Zara Lyon) are both T-1s, but not Primes. It's also implied that if Isthia Raven had been trained, she would have been Prime too. (Unless her precog abilities were too disruptive.)

And in individuals there's some variety; Siglen had no telempathy, for example, but was still a Prime.

Bane Sidhe - Ah, that must be where I remembered the T-5 rating from the Pegasus books, if they were using them in the 2nd or 3rd book. I think it must have been the 3rd book, because I was already through the series as it existed at the time when Pegasus in Space came out (and The Tower and the Hive).

Anyway...dunno if this is your thing, but if you're looking for more Talent stories, I've had a Talent/Pern crossover in the works for a long while. People seem to look on it favorably for both its portrayal of Pern and Talents. I'm definitely no replacement, but it's been fun to write. http://archiveofourown.org/works/273190

T2KincaidDano Jul 15 2015 02:29 AM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gidget2 (Post 80774)
I was thinking the other day about T-1s and Primes. I actually answered my own question because I was pndering about if being T-1 automatically meant you were a Prime, and then of course realised that Primes are only rated as T-1 in 'pathing and 'porting. Ergo the question answering!

But I thought more about T-1s. IIRC, Elizara, Rowan's medic when she was pregnant, was a T-1 in Empathy (I think?). But do we see any other T-1s (ie not Primes) in TTatH books? I can't seem to recall any, but that doesn't mean much!!

The way that I understand the meaning of Prime, is that a Prime is a T1 in the rating system, (which goes from T1 down to T12), is the strongest in both telepathy and telekinesis out of all talent ratings. Yes, there are Primes in different professions who do not work in a tower, such as Medical Primes. Zara, a Prime/T1, the Rowan's granddaughter, had too much empathy in her talent and she was not fit to be a Tower Prime. So, Zara ended up being a Prime Medical Talent, like her Aunt Elizara, who she was also coincidentally named after. The way I understand the T1...T12 rating system, is that it is used to refer to people talented in telepathy and/or telekinesis, although some of those people may have additional talents like Afra (a T2) who has a bit of a Pregocnitive (a.k.a. "Precog") ability. Conversely, other Talents who do not have telekinesis or telepathic abilities are not rated using the T1 to T12 ratings, but they would be referred to by their ability like a Clairvoyant (seeing the future), a "Finder" who can find people/things, an Empath/Telempath (who can make people feel emotions they want or they can feel other people's emotions). A lot of good information on non-telekinetic/telepathic talents is covered in the Talent prequel books: To Ride Pegasus, Pegasus In Flight and Pegasus in Space.

Bane Sidhe Jul 19 2015 03:47 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Am so loving "The Day Benden Went to War". A must read people. Thanks D. M. Domini

Spock Jul 20 2015 07:17 PM

Re: T-1s and Primes
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bane Sidhe (Post 196882)
Am so loving "The Day Benden Went to War". A must read people. Thanks D. M. Domini

Thanks for reminding me of this excellent story. I just spent most of the day getting caught up. When I last stopped it was only up to about Chapter 26.


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